Cicinelli’s Disability Scam Starts to Unravel

Uh oh! The LA Times discovered that one of the cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death is still getting a hefty disability pension from the LAPD, even though he was also pulling down a full salary to work here in Fullerton for the last 12 years.

The story is complete with an internal memo suggesting how unfortunate it would be if the public caught on to the scam. “We might get some unwanted attention if anybody notices that he will still be getting paid 70% of a P-II salary (tax-free) from LAFPP until we’re allowed to get the Board to address it?” says one government employee to another.

Too late. The truth is that the fully disabled Jay Cicinelli should have never been put back on patrol with only one eye, he should never have had the opportunity to pull that disability scam, and he definitely shouldn’t have been around to beat an innocent homeless man to death.

We won’t let you forget that Fullerton has Pat McKinley to thank for that chain of events.

I hired that guy.

Of course McKinley is still boldly maintaining he made all the right choices; that he’s being unfairly attacked for his well-tuned judge of character, his brilliant plan to stock Fullerton with LAPD rejects and his 17 years of coddling criminal behavior in what would become one of the world’s most renowned local police forces.

At least there’s something to be said for his persistence.

243 Replies to “Cicinelli’s Disability Scam Starts to Unravel”

    1. Hey morons there are alot of police officers working with only one eye!!cicinelli is not the only kne you f’n morons!!!!

        1. They say everyone has their price. Combined with selective hiring by screening for myopic short sighted people you create the environment in government that we have. This is a problem nationally as well as locally. Do you honestly think that what we have running this $250 million dollar business is THE BEST FULLERTON HAS TO OFFER? I have shown council live feeds to out of towners and they are floored. TOTAL RECALL

      1. They need to be taken off duty immediately!!!
        It’s for their own safety. They’d probably suck in a shoot-out, don’t ya think?

          1. Good reading. Clearly, in those requirements there is all kinds of controversy, court cases, and full explanations of reasons for things. I notice that it refers a lot to the agencies. I wonder why Post would say about how the ultimate decision is made. I wonder if those guidelines and conditions are actually just recommendations, and as long as a Chief signs off on the testing, they are clear to hire the candidate and POST will endorse and license them. Will be interesting to see how if that is how he was hired. If that’s the case, I guess the Chief will just have to explain his decision. If that’s the case, then nothing illegal about it?

            1. personal question for you RI.. would you feel safe having a partner in the field with his limited vision??

              i would think that he is a danger to himself as well as his partner..

        1. Seertosum! You are a complete idiot! The funny thing is it doesn’t take two eyes to do this job it takes common sence which you have none you f’n idiot!!!!

            1. I just spoke to my next door neighbor who is a recently retired LAPD Commander and he says that you need two working eyes to pass the physical. Due to the disability, Cicinelli needed special treatment to be hired by another PD since he was retired on basically a 70% disability.
              However, strings get pulled by Chief Pat McPension and that allowed Cicinelli to bypass the rules and regulations. I bet his POST application is incomplete or false.
              McPension may have said that he would be on desk duty only – then sent him out on the street.

              1. i would think that would be the case..

                none of this makes sense to me otherwise, too much of a liability …


              “The importance of vision to the safety of the officer and the public is undisputed,…”

              I doubt Jay Cicinelli would have treated Kelly Thomas any different if Jay had both eyes. I believe Jay’s problem was not so much physical, but more a mental.

              From what the DA explained the video showed, Jay intended to hurt/kill Kelly.

              Even though Jay only has one eye, his vision was good enough to focus on bashing Kelly Thomas in the eyes, nose and forehead. From what the picture showed of Kelly in the hospital, Jay hit his intended target.

              Jay’s mental problem could have stemmed from the fact that he lost an eye, nut or bolt, or perhaps Jay has always been a psycho.

              The City of Los Angeles gave Jay Cicinelli a lifetime disability pension not because he lost 50% of his vision, but because he lost his ability to think rationally.

              Thanks to Pat McPension for doing a friend a favor, Fullerton tax payers get stuck with the bill and Kelly Thomas get’s stuck with an early grave.

          1. It obviously doesn’t require a good grasp of common spelling, either. Name some other cyclops cops rather than call someone an idiot for asking for proof of your claim.

          2. Cthompsonmoron if your comment wasn’t so stupid I’d laugh but its not funny nor is it an informed comment. Do everyone a favor by getting rid of your computer, stop posting and go stand in a corner wearing a dunce hat!

        2. Sgt Kim, fpd one eye. He lost an eye in on duty training accident on motor. He is a ahole since he became sgt!

          1. **** ATTENTION ALL CITIZENS ****


            1. Dang that’s mean. At least prove he can’t do the job. He might be the best cop Fullerton has. It’s clear Chiefs can hire without full vision and Chiefs have throughout California. One eye, one arm, one leg. Rough going after a handicap without proof that he can’t do the job. Ouch.

              1. After Kelly’s brutal torture and murder, it’s only wise for citizens to be “safe rather than sorry.” The cops, for the most part, do whatever they want with impunity, so it would behoove citizens to take precautions.

              2. We have two cyclops cops: Cicinelli and Kim. Cicinelli is a known, proven psychopath and murderer. Kim, from the report, is a total asshole since making sergeant – an indicator that authority has gone to his head (sounds similar to Cicinelli).

                Conclusion: cyclops cops at FPD are murderous, raging assholes.

                Just because Sgt Kim hasn’t yet beat someone to death doesn’t mean he isn’t rolling his one good eye around looking for a target. But the odds are that he is.

                Mean? Hey, he knew it was tough job when he took it, one eye and all. Let him come on here and tell us what a swell guy he is.

        1. “…someone needs to hit spellcheck…”

          You thing [their] post would make more sense if they did? I kind’a doubt it.

            1. Hi Xer! So nice to have you here again! I’ve been away for awhile myself, out of the country and out of state, but I have NEVER stopped thinking about Kelly Thomas’ horrific murder for even one moment!

              1. yes yes, welcome back, Xer! So nice to see you again, where in the world have you been! lol! Does Xer stand for ‘Transferred’ much?

              2. “I have NEVER stopped thinking about Kelly Thomas’ horrific murder for even one moment!”

                Nor I, friend. Everytime I see a vet, er, I mean a homeless person, Kelly haunts my thoughts. The way we Americans treat the men and women who’ve put their lives on the line to defend US is atrocious. If Cincinelli had received adequate evaluation and treatment on his return, Kelly would still be alive. If LAPD and FPD performed adequate psych evils, Kelly would still be alive too. Had MicP truly cared about Cinny he’d have had him treated for his mental condition and put him on a desk. With grandiose egos like MicP there is what is actually good for you, and then there is what they WANT to BELIEVE is good for you. Guys like that mistake their ego for their penis all the time. In reality the only thing big about them is the inflated self-opinion. Hang ’em High. Recall the three chimps (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) NOW!

      2. Please please please don’t engage the trolls . Let them talk to themselves . We can talk to them on Tuesday nights .

      3. You may be interested to know that there are now many active duty Marines missing a limb.

        The differences are that A) those Marines did not enlist with the handicap, rather they were injured in the line of duty ; B) They never left the service or “retired”; and C) They are not sent on combat duty.

        If Cicinelli had remained at LAPD on desk duty or accident investigation etc., there would be no gripe. In this case however, Cicinelli was hired AFTER he was handicapped, took a full disability retirement, and went on duty as a patrol cop.

        It is the specific circumstances related to Cicinelli that are problematic, not that a PD has a one eyed cop somewhere on its force.

        1. Seems to me a mistake to equate active duty marines with psychopathic cops.

          LAPD chose not to give the cyclops a desk job or investigator position. Obviously, they were aware of something that told them he should not be associated with LAPD in any form or fashion.

          McKinley, being the magnanimous asshole that he is, decided he knew more about psychology, physiology, and astrology than the learned men in Los Angeles, and hired him. By bypassing the POST requirements that EVERY OFFICER HAVE 2 FULLY FUNCTIONING EYES.

          The problem is that too many excuses are being made for the good ol’ boys in the fraternity who are all cock-and-balls and not The Right Stuff.

  1. per OCR

    “Fullerton hired Cicinelli 12 years ago, shortly after he began receiving his disability pension. Former police chief Pat McKinley, who hired Cicinelli and is now a city councilman, has said he put Cicinelli through extensive psychological testing and personally interviewed him because he had been shot.

    McKinley said Cicinelli passed those tests “with flying colors.”

    Is McKinley now a Dr too?? Sounds like he personally did the testing…

    1. I don’t believe him. They turn away many vets with extended weapons training because they think they would be too quick to use their guns. They also would have to consider PTSD from his injuries.

      Experts say witnesses from the Seal Beach killings will have PTSD, , so Cincinelli would be a prime candidate for it too.

      McKinley bypassed POST requirements on the physical, , I think he bypassed the psych too. I don’t see how Cincinelli could have passed.

      1. …”I think [McKinley] bypassed the psych too… ”

        Begs the question if Mic ever passed a psych himself. Just look at the Motley Crue he assembled!

    1. Hey Reality Is…….In this video, McKinley says the first thing he did was to ‘Rewrite the Police Manuel’ at FPD………….

      1. He said that graffiti was his focus when he was hired.

        “McKinley, 51, said he is eager to work with the city’s campaign against graffiti. He talked with Mayor Molly McClanahan about the graffiti problem, which many city officials and residents have said is the most urgent issue facing Fullerton.

        I think young people need to be aware that it’s criminal vandalism,” McClanahan told McKinley. The mayor and McKinley also talked about publicizing arrests of graffiti vandals as a way to deter the crime.

        McKinley attended a four-hour City Council meeting last week during which residents lined up to complain about the spread of graffiti. The council on Feb. 16 will consider an anti-graffiti ordinance, which, if approved, would create stiff fines for those convicted of the crime and establish rewards for those who turn in suspects. ”

  2. I wonder if they’ll make him pay back all of is disability pay? Was it received fraudulently since he clearly wasn’t disabled after all?

    1. If not it sure is a scam on the taxpayers of OC. They ought to be seriously ticked.

      Hum, let’s see now… who would be responsible to get the fraudulently taken money back for the OC taxpayers? The DA? Oh yeah, you KNOW that’s gonna happen.

    1. Hell Friggin’ Yes! He should be hit with a civil suit large enough that it takes away everything he owns so he could sleep with transients at the bus stop.

        1. Looking around at Nature, I’d say God is definitely a poet. And I do know He knows a thing or two about justice. Stranger things have happened!

          1. Forgive me if I wait and see before getting excited. You are correct though about stranger things happening. They do every day. I do so love ‘poetry.’

    1. A criminal conviction is required to become a registered sex offender. The settlement was a civil matter.

      1. So, he is free on the streets to sexually molest more females?? Kind of reminds me of the Boy Scouts and Catholic Priest.. Just keep moving them around hoping they will not find another one to touch..

        1. You have to realize he was not charged or convicted of any sexual crime. The settlement was not between him and the victims but rather the City of Fullerton.

          1. As I stated before.. He is free to sexually molest more females. I say, lets find him and tie him to a fence post.. Nekked of course…

              1. “LOL. Good luck.”

                Wouldn’t take much luck, mostly just a small group of diligent civic-minded citizens and a plan. They could pretty easily lure him out to the San Bardo desert with a paid hooker while he is drunk. Whole thing accomplished with little to no violence. I understand nights can get cold in the desert. Think his ‘manhood’ would survive the night air? I’m thinking black and white photos of his ‘aroused state’ in the cold night air anonymously sent to the local papers, or maybe posted online? Wonder if he’d change his name and move after that? Not that I am advocating anything of the sort, or course. simply musing ‘out loud.’

                Manhood, manhood and child molesters, manhood and rapists, is it just me or does that smack of an oxymoron?

          2. I thought Rincon was finally fired? Or is he now back on the beat asking the “girls” to check out his cool back seat?

          1. Can’t you spel gud Cthompsonmoron? The word is spelled A-S-S as in what you are and not as which is a preposition. Even Tuco knows English and its my second language!

            1. CackleFoos :
              Wow. You sound like Ted Bundy. Or Richard Ramirez. Do they call you The Night Talker?

              I was replying to Cthompsonmoron. He leaves snail trails in every thread he visits.

          2. “Cthompsonmoron” sounds eerily similar to Pat McKinley when he makes statements like this one that that sound more like “satan meant to say”.

              1. He kind of sounded like the old Chief of Police and current City Councilman, Pat McKinley, when he makes those stupid “Freudian slips” in public. These statements are indicative of a soul has lost it’s moral compass, and that Satan is now at the helm will continue steering us all towards the moral abyss where Satan of course feels more at home.

                1. People who sit near Pat McKinley frequently report smelling something similar to sulphur, and hearing crackling noises.

                  When he was a kid in Junior High he would do this magic trick where he’d take a sheet of paper into his hands and make it burst into flames – except it wasn’t flash paper, it was notebook paper.

                  Now that I think about it, Pat McKinley and Anton Lavey look suspiciously alike. Look it up!

            1. Do you have information that criminal charges will be filed? I seriously doubt anything is going to happen criminally with Rincon.

          1. Hmmmm, the city paid a settlement and the FPD fired him… Sounds like it was determined.. Of course McKinley condones such behavior so we know he won’t do anything.. That’s nothing new though, he doesn’t do anything but sit his ass on a chair and stare blankly at the people during meetings. He wanted to meet with me one on one and I told Joe Felz he’s not worth my time one on one.

            1. I don’t mean this in a condescending way Erin, but you should read up on the differences between civil and criminal law. I know you mean well, but it’s obvious you don’t understand even the basic tenets of our legal system. The settlement offered by the CITY has nothing to do with Rincon’s guilt or innocence, his culpability as a criminal or even a sex offender.

                1. Again, I’m not saying this to be mean to you…

                  But if you truly knew the difference, you wouldn’t be asking about his status as a sex offender.

  3. Cthompsonmoron :
    Hey morons there are alot of police officers working with only one eye!!cicinelli is not the only kne you f’n morons!!!!

    kne? wtf is a kne? It’s nice of you to try and toss around insults, but pleasae learn the english language first, ok?

      1. “And stay away from the booze!!”

        Yeah, ya’ wanna leave some for RI, He can get pretty scrappy when he hasn’t had his ‘happy juice.’

  4. “Ron, your son was not a rocket scientist.”

    ~Comment made to Ron Thomas during proposed settlement offer.

    1. It’s fact. Doesn’t really matter in this case but it will matter in the eventual settlement because it will play into future earnings, etc.

      1. RI~Sure will.. He will be a wanna-be-cop aka security guard.. I hear they pay approximately $10 to $12 an hour.. Wonder if he’s still married.. Notice I said “still”

      2. I will tell you that if someone communicated an insult to me like that right after my son had been brutally murdered, he would be going to the dentist for implant surgery! I typically don’t get angry, but, I’m sorry, that is a really shitty thing to say to someone who just lost his son!

      3. That won’t matter in the lawsuit. The BIG BUCKS will come from the punitive damages and negligence monies from hiring Cincinelli.

      4. Ron will never have to worry about money again, for the rest of his life. Ramos and Cicinelli saw to that.

        Inside sources say because of the large number of civil rights violations going back years, FPD is going to be put under Federal scrutiny just like LA Co Jail is currently going through.

        And because FPD is accountable to the city government, the same scrutiny will be focused on City Hall. And the Mayor. And the City Council.

        The recall may not be necessary – it’s likely there are enough violations documented in file cabinets that HeeHaw and McKinley will be going to jail on federal charges.

  5. 9c1copcar :
    Is anyone going to be going to future protests? I know it is going to rain Saturday, but just wondering.

    Short answer: YES

    Long answer: I’m busy this Saturday anyways, but I’m not giving up.

  6. Vernon Dozier :
    Again, I’m not saying this to be mean to you…
    But if you truly knew the difference, you wouldn’t be asking about his status as a sex offender.

    Maybe you need to stop being a tight ass and loosen it up..

  7. Hey Travis,

    You need to take your sorry ass and your pack of retards to the City of LA and ask them why they retired Cicinelli.

    At the time LAPD had a policy that they would not hire one-eyed cops. After being shot 7 times Cicinelli recovered from his injuries went back to patrol and earned his basic post. This all happened before Chief Parks knew what happened to Cicinelli, you see Parks thought Cicinelli was still at home recovering from his injuries but Cicinelli had returned to full duty, was working patrol and finishing his FTO phase of training. After finding out that Cicinelli had completed training and had obtained his basic post LAPD still did not want to retain a cop with one eye although there were 50 one-eyed cops working in the state at various police departments. This is according to POST call and ask them.

    LAPD has one-eyed cops currently and also at the time Cicinelli was retired by LAPD. The difference is the other one-eyed cops at LAPD had lost the use of their eye on duty and while they were off probation.

    LAPD paid Cicinelli off with the retirement to avoid an ADA

    McKinley hired the ex-marine Cicinelli because he was shot up and let down by the City of LA. He worked for the City of Fullerton for 11 years and according to your blog his only crime prior to the the Kelly Thomas incident was that he said mean things to some sweet young probationer at Florence Crittenton.

    All the facts have yet to come out on the Kelly Thomas incident. The DA’s filing was motivated by politics and a jury will not convict once all the facts are known.

    Travis I know you already knew all this. Your motivation is simply to EXPLOIT the death of Kelly Thomas for the benefit of Tony Bushala.

    1. You failed to mention how many of those 50 one-eyed cops are allowed to work patrol. I bet almost all of them are on some sort of desk or light duty.

      There was an obvious reason why the LAPD didn’t want to hire a one-eyed cop named Cicinelli. Think, please.

    2. OK, but we were told when all the facts (that have been withheld from us) came out, that the DA would not charge the officers.

      1. Who said that? 2 were gonna be charged for sure due to the crime and politics. Trial will be tough. Gonna be hard to get guilty verdict.

        1. Won’t be hard…..facts are overwhelming… the DA doesn’t prosecute cases unless he believes he will win….

          1. Lol come on. You know better than that. Too many trial examples to cite. Seeing that Cicinelli will get less than a year with a conviction, he should just plead out.

    3. I don’t believe you……..Cicinelli never returned to duty to finish his probation, , he was still recovering when he retired at 70% disability. Officers are NOT allowed to complete probation in a restricted duty capacity. POST vision requirements are a Ca State law, Also, you didn’t call POST and get that info on Cincinelli, even if you are a cop, because it’s AGAINST the law to give it to you or anyone else. Please, , stop all the bullcrap…….

      But perhaps his most courageous moment was when he fought for the opportunity to continue to serve as a field certified Police Officer, despite his medical limitations. It was ultimately determined that because of his injuries, Cicinelli no longer met the minimum standards of a peace officer as set forth by California Peace Officers Standards and Training (POST). One of the key principles cited by POST was that
      peripheral vision is one of the most important visual abilities for safe patrol officer performance.
      Although it pained the Department to conclude that Cicinelli could no longer serve as a patrol officer, it was an obvious and necessary decision to ensure the safety of all Los Angeles Police Officers and residents alike. In addition, Rule 5.26 of the Rules of the Board of Civil Service Commissioners does NOT permit a Police Officer to complete probation when in a restricted duty capacity.

      1. BTW…. To suggest that Cincinelli snuck in there and completed his probation (He was only on the job 2-3 weeks when he was shot), without his supervisors or the Chief knowing what he was doing is laughable………..Please…..

  8. Tuco knows…….
    Settlement offer is just that. An offer. If you representing the city was stupid enough to say “Ron, your son was not a rocket scientist,” then you will assure yourself that the city will be sued in civil court involving a team of lawyers representing the city at $350/hr each lawyer x many hours. Also, the cost to the city will be loss of close relative, (son) to both Ron and his ex wife. then the damages can go as high as 3 times the initial finding amount for problem conduct by FPD,City of Fullerton, etc.(I know, Sgt. Goodlie says FPD is innocente!
    It is absolutely STUPID of anyone representing the City of Fullerton to say “Ron, you know your son was not a rocket scientist”. That person should be immediately terminated by City Manager.
    Gee how does Tuco know? Well, you see State Farm said something like that to my wife…….. Then they offered $6,000. She would have taken the $6,000 if they were nice to her. They were not. So she sued and received $60,000 + they paid her hospital bills + State Farm hired a private attorney on retainer who ran up over $15,000 in bills. All because they could not be nice! So they paid a total of over $80,000 because they were low level blowhard adjusters!
    The consulting firm McKinsey and Company worked out the lowball tough guy scenario for Farmers and a few other casualty insurance companies. Those companies that used the system in litigious states like California paid dearly for their stupidity.
    See, Tuco knows! All Blondie does is cut rope!

  9. I think Cicinelli’s pension should be reviewed!

    After the review, the pension should be increased. Anyone who was shot six – seven times, lost an eye, got his arm broken, got his hip broken, intestines severed, had ten to twelve surgeries and still wants to protect your asses should get anything he wants.

    1. Not to be mean, but Cicinelli should be taken out to Chino and put through a meat grinder after having all those injuries. He’s useless as a human being, unless maybe he could wrestle bears in a Russian circus.

    2. Beating to death an innocent homeless man by hammering the butt of your weapon in between his eyes like a carpenter hammering a nail over a dozen times into Kelly’s skull in no way shape or form makes my family and I feel “protected”.
      It personally makes me think that that officer is “rabid” with anger management issues and that he needs long term psychiatric help before this happened and that he should have never returned to the streets where he can act out his aggressions on the residents of Fullerton who paid him handsomely to be a peacemaker.
      That’s what would’ve made me more feel more “protected”.

    3. Cincinelli could have been an ‘Against All Odds’ success story….They weren’t doing him any favors putting him on street patrol. They should have made him an investigator or a detective (something in-house). Being on street patrol made him a train wreck waiting to happen……and a bigger tragedy than he was before. He took Kelly with him and made him part of the tragedy too…..

  10. @Hog Wild, maybe you shouldn’t wear a thong dear, they can get some getting used too. You seem a bit crabby trying !

  11. Hog Wild :
    I think Cicinelli’s pension should be reviewed!
    After the review, the pension should be increased. Anyone who was shot six – seven times, lost an eye, got his arm broken, got his hip broken, intestines severed, had ten to twelve surgeries and still wants to protect your asses should get anything he wants.

    sadly, it’s not your call what cissy should get !

  12. I was wondering.
    Think there is any chance that Kelly Thomas died from the application of the Taser and not from facial injuries as those morons Pat McKinley or the Mayor Doctor suggested?
    Any chance that tasers are not as safe as people have been led to believe?
    Should that possibility be explored or should we throw the officers under the bus and allow people to continue to be tasered and die?

    1. Einstein,
      As I’ve stated in previous posts, Officer Ciccinelli was observed kneeling over an already restrained man named Kelly Thomas and using the butt end of the taser as a hammer while striking Kelly in between the eyes. The number of blows were reported as, “I lost count at a dozen”.
      So I’m pretty sure that we’re not throwing anyone under the bus due to the taser mis-firing as the taser was never meant applied as a hammer to subdue suspects.

      1. Tasers result in interesting debate and court cases that’s for sure. Taser International spends millions yearly on cases related to the taser. Problem is that the cause of death is almost always attributed to something else, i.e. fat, drugs, delirium, etc so I don’t think they will ever go away. Valuable tool for police, and death results are in less that 1% of applications. Reasoning is that there has been so many court cases, civil trials, criminal trials already and taser seems to always prevail.

    1. Me neither but $36,000 plus $88,000 and overtime at 3% at 55 meaning a well defined retirement of probably $150,000 a year most of it tax free, and I get to keep my trigger finger and shooting eye and drive my car etc could really pique my interest greatly….. My dad lost his left arm and his left eye in an accident in his 20’s. He makes no where near this but always provided…… and he never beat anyone to death either.

        1. Oh come on…. $88,000 is his base, his retirement would be boosted by overtime, vacation sell back, sick leave sell back…. etc. He pulls in alot more than $88,000 a year… your smarter than that.

          1. Come on. Use facts not BS. Retirement has nothing to do with overtime, vacation & sick buy backs, or other perks. Please, educate yourself before you blabber nonsense. Its people like you that make activist wannabes believe the one sentence people spew. Pew!

            1. unused sick leave at the time of retirement can (at least partially, if not fully) be applied to PERS service credit depending on the individual agency’s PERS contract.

              1. Ok I guess I’ll buy that. I’ve never heard of that being in a cities contract with pers but I suppose it’s possible. I know vacation, sick, and OT will probably put my final year at about $200,000. I wish that affected my retirement but it doesn’t. 🙂

                1. One learns many arcane things working in Personnel/HR… And during one’s PERS retirement process…

                2. Tuco knows……….
                  You are in the wrong city system Reality Is. In my city and many in Orange County, City Managers and the higher city supervisors can retire on the highest one year whereas teachers (different retirement system), is based on the highest 3 years. And that one year can be goosed with owed sick pay and accrued vacation time etc.
                  So it is possible in certain cities, districts, counties etc. to goose the Cal Pers system

            2. Guess Bloomberg Business Week got it wrong…. and Brown is a liar (he is but I support him on this.)


              From the article…

              “Brown proposed to limit double dipping, when a retiree collecting benefits takes another government job. He would also bar pension spiking, which inflates future retirement payments by manipulating overtime, unused vacation and special compensation”

              Brown spewed this out, he is the best friend you and your unions have, he is the creator of the mess we are in union wise…. pew!

                1. Wrongo bongo…. reality is that the CHP, Parole Agents, C.O.’s DMV cops, CARB cops, and the myriad of people in pers considered public safety (hose draggers included) will be affected by this… as the state goes the counties and cities follow close behind…. better hurry up and retire.

  13. I am not arguing the use of force by either of these officers. Clearly it was inappropriate.

    I am refering to the cause of the mans death.

    The taser has been sold as a safe method of subduing suspects yet hundreds of people are dead.

    Focus on the fact that Kelly Thomas was struck in the face and you ignore the possibility of the true cause of his death.

    Many seemingly healthy people have struggled with police and died after being tasered.

    1. I have been against the use of these devices for a long time.
      They have been linked to too many deaths and are being used too liberally.
      When a officer pulls out a gun he knows it’s life and death, I’m not so sure that the taser is thought of a life and death use of force and therefore it seems to be used excessively.
      My personal opinion is ban the use of these torture devices altogether or at least require every officer that gets issued one to undergo being tased themselves so that they know first hand the pain they are releasing when they choose to deploy.

      1. I have a better idea. Take the tasers away from the cops and give them to the civilians. When the cop hits the bricks convulsing from a high-voltage “wait a minute, asshole” the civilian splits the scene — end of story. Cop goes back to donut, civilian goes back to wifey, and peace settles once again on beautiful downtown Fullerton.

        1. LOL Funny. Read the OIR someone posted. It has some good taser discussions by Genaco. Deaths are always fat people or people on drugs, fighting, etc. Some great research on the topic of a taser around. Great tool. Controversial for sure.

          1. If it is so safe then why cant we use one on our kids? Would it not be great to just taze the crap out of your kid when he is acting up…. Mines grown but I sure would like to use one on my friends kids. …… but that would get me locked up and charged with murder if they die.

            1. If they were around when I was a kid I know my dad would have used one on me. That bread board hurt too much. Drive stun woulda been much better. Just like if I was a bad guy I would rather have a taser than a baton.

    2. Agreed. Although I think there are too many other horrendous injuries involved in this case to soley indict the taser manufacturer.
      It was also reported by eyewitnesses that the officers shot directly into Kelly’s chest several times, which is in direct violation of the recommendations by the manufacturer, and that the officers length of time for applying the taser was extremely excessive.
      Look up the word “contempt” and the nasty set of behaviors are born from this condition, and you’ll probably see a picture of Jay Ciccinelli and a few of his FPD cronies there under the definition.

    3. Tasers are definitely lethal. And Kelly was Tasered on the chest near his heart. According to the manufacturer’s warnings, the Tasers are NOT to be used on the chest as it can cause a heart attack. The repeated Tasering of Kelly not only caused severe, horrific torture to Kelly, IMO, it also contributed to his death. Kelly’s heart stopped a couple of times on the way to the hospital. IMO, Kelly’s death could have been caused, or at least partially caused, by the Tasering.

      IMO, the prone choke hold that the cops used on Kelly was also a contributing factor in Kelly’s death. Look up how many people die when they are in police custody and the prone choke hold is used. Kelly COULD NOT BREATHE, but the cops didn’t care.

      The fat cops who all dog piled on top of Kelly, crushing his chest and asphyxiating him was a major contributing factor in Kelly’s death. Kelly even told them that he COULDN’T BREATHE, but the cops didn’t care!

      The cops kicking Kelly in the ribs, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lung, which collapsed and filled his lung with blood, also contributed to his death. Kelly could NOT BREATHE, but the cops didn’t care!

      Then, after Kelly was unconscious, the one-eyed murderer, Cicinelli, bashed Kelly repeatedly in the head and face, causing massive, severe, facial injuries with broken bones very deep inside his face. Kelly also had broken bones on the side of his face. This bludgeoning to Kelly’s face caused massive bleeding, which caused Kelly to choke on his own blood while he was unconscious, and while his lungs were full of blood from the beating. The cops didn’t care!

      Kelly was a homeless, mentally ill person and the cops figured that no one would care what happened to Kelly. So, the cops DIDN’T CARE about Kelly’s life.

      Kelly lay unconscious in a HUGE pool of blood in the street without receiving timely emergency first aid, while the cops just stood around and congratulated themselves and bragged about savagely beating a defenseless man to a pulp.
      The cops didn’t care about trying to save Kelly’s life!!

      The ambulance didn’t leave the scene for at least 17 minutes. The lack of emergency first aid by the officers may also have contributed to Kelly’s brain death.

      The officers, who stood around, watched and did NOTHING to stop the dog pile of overweight officers who crushed Kelly’s chest and suffocated him, and who did NOTHING to stop Cicinelli from bludgeoning Kelly in the face at least EIGHT TIMES after Kelly was already unconscious- ALSO GREATLY contributed to Kelly’s death. They did not stop a murder in progress! IMO, they are also responsible for Kelly’s death.

      The FPD animals who murdered Kelly murdered him at least three times over!! Talk about overkill!! When Kelly was first thrown onto the ground and his head was bashed into the concrete curb, Kelly would not have been able to easily get up, think straight, or even easily walk away at that point! Let alone hurt anyone!! Kelly would have needed an ambulance right then and there! But, no!! The cops had to put Kelly in a choke hold and begin suffocating him, without giving Kelly a chance to even catch his breath.

      The cops unrelented in their murderous frenzy and ignored Kelly’s cries for mercy and help.

      Every defensive motion that Kelly made, in his futile effort to protect his head from the kicking and the beating by the cops, every feeble effort Kelly made to defend himself from his gang of attackers, and every cry or scream of pain that Kelly made as he struggled for his life and FOUGHT to BREATHE- only resulted in even more vicious brutality by the cops.

      The six cops were SO COWARDLY that they somehow thought that a DEFENSELESS, small, very badly beaten and profusely bleeding man would be able to harm them!!- The six, large, “professionally trained”, bullet proof vest wearing officers were SO afraid of Kelly that they just had to murder Kelly in order to save their own fat, donut-eating, “Starbucks” drinking, self-excusing, self-aggrandizing, sociopathic selves.

      The cops believed they were somehow justified in murdering an unarmed man who was crying out for help, who was being crushed to death, and who was being suffocated, and who was begging for his life and crying for his dad to help him.

      But, to answer your question, YES, I do believe that Tasers are very DEADLY and they are definitely ROUTINELY misused by MANY unethical, sociopathic, cops. There are SO MANY incidents, nationwide, where people have died while in custody, or while being taken into custody, because of the use of Tasers and the prone choke hold. The police brutality towards the citizens they “protect and serve” is both unnecessary and unconscionable.

      At trial, if and when the pole video is finally shown to the world, we MAY finally have a more complete knowledge of what happened. However, IMO, I think the original raw, unaltered video was SO horrific, and SO revealing, and would cause SO much outrage, that they will never release it in its entirety, or the FPD brass will have manipulated the video to make it show much less of the truth, by reducing the resolution, etc., etc.

      However, IMO, Tasers were not the only cause of death in Kelly’s murder. According to the UCI doctors, Kelly’s death was caused by blunt force trauma to the head and lack of oxygen to the brain.

      In Kelly’s brutal, horrifying death, IMO, it is very likely that the Tasers caused, or greatly contributed to Kelly’s death; however, it WAS definitely the DEPRAVED SOCIOPATHS who were USING the Tasers who are responsible for Kelly’s death. The officers KNOW that if you do all of those horrific things to someone, that person will surely die. The officers KNOW what deadly force is. They might not admit it, but they do know. After all, they are “professionally trained.” This was not their first rodeo.

      1. Soooooooo how do you really feel? LOL you have said your opinion many times. No point in pointing out all your errors and addition of personal opinions but I will just start out with one question.

        Copy and paste where on Taser International it says you will NOT ever use a taser on the chest. Those words.

        Thanks. 🙂

        1. I’ve seen police officers use Tasers on suspects simply because they didn’t like their attitude or the suspects level of compliance with an officer during an encounter.
          The only Taser devices that should be deployed by our officers here in Fullerton are the ones that are descibed in the manufacturers link that I’ve enclosed.
          I’m confident that the residents, and the police officers of Fullerton who are proud of their work, would welcome this new addition to our police force.

          1. And you are showing why someone standing on a street, or reading paper, isn’t the one judging if a use of force is reasonable and legal. Not knowing all the facts, and rushing to judgement, is part of the problem. You may have thought it was a bad use of the taser, when it fact that use of the taser may have saved injury or death. You may be right, but people just need to realize that video or what they say be not be everything they think it is.

          2. For instance, if you are standing there drunk and you are talking shit, telling me you are gonna kick my ass, you hate cops, you are part of FFF, and then you bring your fists up into a clenched position and make the same threats, I simply pull out my taser, taser you, put cuffs on you, and take you to jail. You would consider that improper use of the taser.

      2. My sentiments and the sentiments the majority of the Fullerton residents that I speak to daily, are reflected in your post. Thanks for putting them into words.

  14. Its crazy to think that with only one eye, depth perception, working at night, that theres not more incidences.

    1. There probably are. Fullerton PD has a very large rug that things get swept under. Wouldn’t be surprised to find Jimmy Hoffa under there, too.

  15. Another Tragedy for the Fullerton cop deparment and politicans, etc. sad but painfully true.
    Orange County and Fullerton City government employees are hired by their buddies and politicans love to surround themselves with cronies with generous salary, nice pension, good health benefits, and much overtime.
    These crooks will do whatever it takes to cover up so public never see the ugly truth.
    Beside corruptions, budget deficit is about to hit hard in 2012 and you are always the victims.

        1. Who said anything about getting him fired? It’s better for him to stay out in public where he’ll undoubtedly cross the line and end up another example of McKinley’s Mad Men. Maybe he’ll smack a little girl.

          I’m almost beginning to feel sorry for the DA’s office. Rackauckas must feel like he’s playing a game of Whack-a-Mole every time another dirty cop pops up.

          1. LOL I know you aren’t as dumb as you sound on here. You know as well as I do that cops aren’t popping all over getting charged with crimes. The major incident, and the touching of girls one, iPad one. If you were to have access to the IA files of every PD in the state, you would find the same %% of issues. Humans. You know the DA isn’t running all over trying to find cops to charge either. At least appear smart. 🙂

            1. Ok, so maybe they aren’t popping up. Maybe they’re tripping over themselves trying to get through the door first. Regardless of how or what is happening, the appearance is of a police department that’s being run like a Sicilian family.

              I’m sorry I appear so dumb, I just don’t have much material to work with. : (

  16. Read this post from a friend of mine………..It was originally posted on the OCR blog…..

    John Schmidt commented on Kelly Thomas case: Officer’s pension under review.

    As a former Police Training Officer, this guy does not meet the minimum standards required by the State to be a police officer. You have to have 20/20 in both eyes to pass the mandated physical. So Fullerton put an unqualified person on the streets knowingly. I would hate to be anyone who signed off on his hire. The family could wind up owning the city.

    1. I don’t think anyone disagrees with you if something scandalous or illegal was done to hire him. I’m sure post could and would provide data on how many chiefs have overriden some type of condition by post and hired someone. If its common or a number that is not that abnormal, then there will be nothing wrong with it here either. We will hear about it at the civil trial I’m sure.

  17. I’m curious how SICKENELLI would do at the DMV, If he covered his good eye & had to read off the DMV EYE CHART.

  18. During SICKENELLIS interview w/Mckinley , SICKENILLI said ” I will kill many persians ” ..Mckinley..” your hired!!!”.

  19. Not the taser!! 🙁

    Basketball Player Goes on Naked Rampage After Being Cut from Team
    12:24 a.m. PST, November 9, 2011

    FRESNO, CALIF. — A college basketball player went on a naked rampage after being cut from the team, police say.

    21-year-old Leonard Tyrell Young was nude Monday night when he ran through a parking lot near the Fresno Pacific University campus, assaulted two women, tried to steal a police car and struck an officer and police dog, according to TV station KFSN.

    Young was finally subdued with three strikes from a Taser stun gun.

    Sign up for KTLA 5 Breaking News Email Alerts

    Investigators say Young was arrested and booked Tuesday for investigation of carjacking, resisting arrest, vandalism, harming a police dog and being under the influence of a controlled substance.

    The university says the redshirt freshman was kicked off the Sunbirds basketball team for missing a game.

    His behavior stunned school officials who say Young was doing well in class and on the court.

    Dennis Janzen, Fresno Pacific Athletic Director said, “We are surprised, we are shocked, saddened. We feel for Lenny, we’re concerned for him, his family, and concerned for anyone else involved including the Fresno Police Department.”

  20. Seer2some…your’e wrong and an idiot. By the way there is a sgt at Fullerton still with one eye. you dont have to have 20/20 in both eyes you fucking bafoon

    1. Admit it. McKinley hired a disabled ticking time bomb and unleashed him on Fullerton. That blatant cronyism and unethical incompetence going to cost the people of Fullerton plenty.

    2. I have pasted and added my reputable sources when posting, including the guidelines from POST themselves. Calling me names won’t change the facts, , and my friend John has 28 years service…….How many do you have?

      I can tell you’re from Fullerton… carry on their reputation of bullying people

      1. I know you aren’t talking to me, I know you have pasted POST guidelines, and I know you know a guy that has 28 years. You haven’t posted anything about the Chief’s that approve the hiring of people with disabilities that don’t meet the guidelines and recommendations from POST. Try to find that or call POST.

        1. I wasn’t talking to you Reality Is……..It wasn’t you cussing me out or calling me names and if you do, I have every right to tell you to back off………Explain to me how a Chief can bypass a ‘mandatory’ requirement. When LAPD retired Cincinelli, , THEY cited the POST requirements as the reason they had NO choice in not letting him return to duty. If they were wrong, Cincinelli would have sued them to keep his job and for discrimination.

          YOU find and then post that his superiors violated his rights and broke the law in discriminating against him for his injuries by not letting him keep his job. We both know that didn’t happen. Also, YOU find and post the requirement that makes it OK for them to only allow some handicapped people to pass and NOT others.

          1. He was probation when they wouldn’t let him come back. When you are on probation, it doesn’t take much to kick them out the door. They said nope, can’t pass probation, see ya but here take 70% forever.

            You say POST requirements, I saw guidelines and recommendations. I say that because a Chief can say if someone doesn’t pass something, he can still hire them. See? POST allows Chief’s to hire people that don’t meet their guidelines and recommendations. We know that. One eye, one leg,one arm, diabetes, heart rate, not 20 20 visions, etc.

    3. You MUST have both eyes usable and correctable to 20/20. If not, the hiring agency that did not follow California State Law is responsible for any problems that result. Eg. A car accident that involves peripheral vision. Results in civil suit.
      By Chief McPherson hiring Cicinelli, and putting him on the street instead of office, he left open the City of Fullerton to lawsuits.

      1. That would make sense. POST says they will provide the certifications and licensing, but any liability if something related to the approval occurs they will distance themselves. Doesn’t put any liability on the Chief, just the City, which would also have to be approved by the City Manager and possibly the City Council. That would all make sense. Tuco always knows, be careful of Tuco.

  21. Now that I think about it, Pat McKinley and Anton Lavey look suspiciously alike. Look it up!

    I would vote for Anton Lavey in a heartbeat over McKinley.

  22. John Schmidt commented on Kelly Thomas case: Officer’s pension under review.

    As a former Police Training Officer, this guy does not meet the minimum standards required by the State to be a police officer. You have to have 20/20 in both eyes to pass the mandated physical. So Fullerton put an unqualified person on the streets knowingly. I would hate to be anyone who signed off on his hire. The family could wind up owning the city.

    Mr. Schmidt is full of shit. There is a reason he worked 28 years and never rose above the rank of FTO.

    Post sets the standards. If a city doctor signs off on a medical problem the applicant is good to go. There are currently cops working with other medical conditions like diabetes,hearing loss, ulcers. back problems.

    1. Are you saying that a doctor signed off on Cicinelli? Really? Do you think McKinley can produce this document?

      McKinley said Cicinelli “tested” somehow. My guess is that’s a total fabrication.

      1. Either a Doctor signed off as passing. Or a Doctor provided the report from the Pre hire physical and the results. Chief said he approved the hiring based on those results. Post must have a process in place for Chiefs to over ride their conditions, which allows post to certify cops with handicaps or results lower than the recommendations they suggest. Only way it could have happened. How it actually happened? Not sure. Will we ever know? 🙂

        1. Why didn’t they do that in LA if it was that easy? Why couldn’t the Chief in LA bypass the POST requirements? Why didn’t Cincinelli sue them when they didn’t?

          1. Because he didn’t want to. That’s what I’m saying. The main reason in LA was probation. Inability to pass probation due to the injury. I don’t know his status at the time probation was up and he had been off one year, but based on that picture I saw with the helmet I imagine it took years for him to fully recover. He didn’t sue because he was on probation and if you research, at the time I can almost guarantee he didn’t think he would ever be a cop either. It took years of rehab.

    2. dont forget MENTAL ISSUES….
      Growing up all me friends with pigs for fathers had step dads and drug problems…………..
      go figure

  23. New employees pensions are being changed to 2% at 55. Common theme among city leaders. Will take some time but when new employees retire they will work until 55 to be eligible.

    Jt :
    Pension reform without touching public safety pensions is just a sad joke.

  24. Is OC in PERS too? I know LASD isn’t PERS. Yea, that’s odd. Doesn’t make sense how you can add all that to your retirement. In my PERS system, it’s your highest year, but that’s only normal salary, no overtime, and doesn’t include your exit check which can be as high as $100,000.

    Tuco Ramirez :
    Tuco knows……….
    You are in the wrong city system Reality Is. In my city and many in Orange County, City Managers and the higher city supervisors can retire on the highest one year whereas teachers (different retirement system), is based on the highest 3 years. And that one year can be goosed with owed sick pay and accrued vacation time etc.
    So it is possible in certain cities, districts, counties etc. to goose the Cal Pers system

    1. OC has its own system, LASD (LA County too) has its own, LAPD has its own – none are part of PERS. Your “highest year” in PERS is by contract; some agencies it’s the average (?) of the 3 years prior to retirement. I’m a 2% @ 55 in the miscellaneous (retired in 2004) category; I think it was single highest year. There can be multiple “year” determinations within the same agency depending on the bargaining unit and its PERS contract.

      In a few years I double dip SS (into which I paid substantial buxx with two employers other than my PERS employer).

  25. Whenever I lose, Blondie cuts the rope…………….
    Yes in OC all this seems to be happening but with more scrutiny lately, I bet it will be temporarily curtailed. Jerry Brown is on the warpath with pensions.
    Best place to work are the state prisons.

    1. Prisons are getting the worst cuts of anyone. Prison guards will end up with a 50% pay and benefit cut at least when this is all over. Crazy.

  26. Naaa. I believe mine will be fine. The OC court case pretty much assures that they can’t mess with existing pensions. Unless of course the world crashes and all the money is gone and we are all living on the streets. Time will tell. I’m confident exiting employees pensions won’t change.

    corrupt :
    Wrongo bongo…. reality is that the CHP, Parole Agents, C.O.’s DMV cops, CARB cops, and the myriad of people in pers considered public safety (hose draggers included) will be affected by this… as the state goes the counties and cities follow close behind…. better hurry up and retire.

  27. corrupt :Wrongo bongo…. reality is that the CHP, Parole Agents, C.O.’s DMV cops, CARB cops, and the myriad of people in pers considered public safety (hose draggers included) will be affected by this… as the state goes the counties and cities follow close behind…. better hurry up and retire.

    pew… where did Mr know it all go?

  28. Well Tuco knows and has two best friends who are retired cops – two agencies – a Sgt level and a Commander and they are happy they retired when they did. Their pensions are set, but the newbies, ouch!”
    “When that rope starts to burn you can see all the way to hell”!

    1. Very very true. so many people got golden handshakes too. They are loving life now. They are very lucky. All the pay cuts cities are going through would have lowered their retirements. I wish I could have got that golden hand job too, I mean hand shake. 🙂

  29. It must be very frustrating for some of the cop posters here who can’t beat the hell out of someone for writing truth about police corruption. They have to settle for posting 4-letter words in comments all over the blogosphere, which verbiage would get their sorry asses fired if used on the job. One would think that the better officers would weigh in to condemn rogue posters who makes all cops look bad, but no-o-o-o-o-o, the good help the bad make all look bad — under the aegis of “I’ve got your back covered, bro.” This silent majority has dramatically adjusted my opinion of all cops. I mean, I can deal with one or two rogue cops, but I can’t deal with it when all cops passively support bad behavior. I don’t even like the one who lives across the street from me anymore, because I’m now convinced the priority of the police fraternity far outweighs ousting of any cop who is, say, even a child molester. Whenever a victim is killed by a criminal, few show up to pay respect at the funeral. But whenever a cop is killed by a criminal, 10,000 police show up to pay respect in standing-room only churches. Goes to show just how little cops think of the public, how highly they all think of themselves. Conceit blinds them from even recognizing their disrespect of the public, each one banding with the tribe as though extinct genes emerge as a survival mechanism against an enemy — the public enemy, which pays the taxes that breathes life into their careers, the intelligence of each cop subverted because allegiance is far more important than public safety, much less respect for the public. What goes around, comes around. And right now, what is coming around is not very pretty for all cops — truth that has finally exposed their outrageous charade against taxpayers.

    1. You just proved your stance, hate for cops, jealousy of your neighbors, and how far out of touch with reality you really are. Nothing is coming around but keep thinking it is. 🙂

  30. I noticed Reality Is not mentioning the fact the Feds have not made a decision to prosecute/ or clear these cops so far. I’d be more worried about the feds than the local DA. The wait must be killing those who stand accused.

    Reality Is, should also mention even if Ramos ental should be acquitted at the local level, they still face a potential 2nd round in federal court for civil rights violations. A threshold easier to prove than 2nd degree murder.

    I am waiting for the cops defense lawyers to make their motions for a dismissal of charges. Interesting no prelimnary hearing yet.

    But it’s difficult to overcome the video/audio tape and over 100 witness statements. A legal strategy that overcomes all that will make the history books for sure.

    I bet the legal bills for the association and PORAC are mounting by the minute and this case isn’t even underway. I am sure when the other cops dues increase for PORAC to over come this astronomical legal bill they won’t mind.

    We don’t know yet if one of the other four who were not charged has turned “rat” yet.

    To think one would go to jail for his fellow cop by keeping his mouth shut will be interesting to see. Their may be an interesting brotherhood in FPD, but giving up your freedom for another knucklehead will be interesting to see.

    Remember, lie to a federal agent is a felony all by itself. We will only know for sure when the feds finally speak up.

    1. I am wondering what ever happened to the anonymous speaker that had some interesting things to say about the Kelly Thomas incident on the John and Ken show…his voice was disguised on the second show but not the first one.

    2. Standard procedure. Feds won’t touch anything until the local and civil cases are done. It will be awhile if at all.

      No one is worried about cost. Look at the Webb case. $8 million.

  31. AntiCorruptionUnit :
    I noticed Reality Is not mentioning the fact the Feds have not made a decision to prosecute/ or clear these cops so far.

    Actually, from what I have heard, the FBI is done with their investigation and are going to charge Ramos, Cicinelli and Wolfe but they must wait until the DA’s case is settled.

    1. According to Ron Thomas three would be charged. If that’s true, it’s got to be Wolfe – who was watching Ramos threaten Kelly and actually struck the first blow and participated in the take down.

  32. vw type 53a :

    AntiCorruptionUnit :
    I noticed Reality Is not mentioning the fact the Feds have not made a decision to prosecute/ or clear these cops so far.

    Actually, from what I have heard, the FBI is done with their investigation and are going to charge Ramos, Cicinelli and Wolfe but they must wait until the DA’s case is settled.

    Gonna get double whacked it appears. Interesting they added Wolfe to the mix and the DA didn’t. Goes to show you it’s NEVER worth getting involved in the cluster these guys did.

    Makes sense to wait.

    If the other cop poster out there had a REAL clue about the system they worked for, they would have never said a word until the FEDS were gone and out of the picture.

    Their experience in such issue shows they are lacking more than they will admit. It’s also clear they never paid attention to what has been going on around them over the last several decades on such issues. Narrow vision and experience shows in a very glaring way.

  33. Hmmm I just wonder if we check, will we find that Cyclops Sissynelli is somehow a blood relative of McKinley? Fullerton needs to clean house from top to bottom. I dont live there, but everytime I visit, it stinks like the City of Bell. It’s that stench of corruption I tell ya. Questioning authority will be met with severe punishment. Next time you interact with the police, ask the officer, “So, have you beat any homeless people to death lately?” You might be surprised at the answer!

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