Flory’s Flock

Molting season arrived early…the landing would be bumpy

An alert FFFF reader just noticed some comments placed on Jan Flory’s Facebook page that should be of interest to all Fullertonians who are interested in Flory and her supporters.

Here’s a semi-literate comment, aimed at the Boss:

 Sonny Black because there they are all puppets and thats how BUSHALA told them to vote!!!!

4 hours ago via mobile · 2

And another the next day:

Sonny Black KIGER AKA BUSHALA SHOULD JUST APPOINT HIS WIFE OR COUSIN OR BROTHER!!!! BUT IM SURE THEY WOULDNT WANT TO APPEAR TRANSPARENT!!!! hahahhaha

 

“Sonny Black.” Hmm. Now where have I head that moniker? Oh, right, it’s the Facebook handle of  Miguel “Sonny” Siliceo, made notorious on these pages as the cop who pinned a rap on Emanuel Martinez that landed him in the county lock-up for five months. The only trouble was that the eye-witness had actually ID’d a completely different person. Whether Mr. Siliceo was just stupid and lazy, or corrupt is a matter for speculation; but an innocent guy spent five months in jail for no legal reason thanks to Sonny. Oh, well.

Subsequently Sonny removed tell-tale traces of his identity, but oops! Too late.

Sonny likes Jan Flory. Alby Al may, too.

For extra fun here is a picture of “Sonny Black,” enjoying some very close personal time with his Facebook pal, “Alby Al” Albert Rincon at a downtown bar.

Chronic Failure Gin Flurry Something Wicked This Way Comes The Crime Beat The Culture of Corruption Union Goons Watch Your Wallet

290 thoughts on “Flory’s Flock

    1. I would say the point is that people who respond to Flory’s scribblings are most likely cops. And cops who have a vested interest in not having the Culture of Corruption interrupted by embarrassing things like discipline and real investigations.

      1. It’s cute how you think if you belittle and talk down to people who speak the truth, we will just go away and you can go back to believing the fpds lies.

        We won’t, by the way. We are after change and won’t stop until we get it. You would do well to stop playing stupid and join the movement for truth.

      2. From one example, you extrapolate “people who respond … are most likely cops”? See, that’s part of why you guys scare people who aren’t in the Bushalification Church — you can take a crumb of evidence and extrapolate into a banquet.

        Seriously, “Fred,” I’d like to point out a flaw in the approach. I would be eager to see better investigations of police misconduct and better discipline of those who violate the rules. (My guess is that Flory would agree. Hell, my guess is that Dan Hughes might concede that point.) But you guys don’t stop there, because that’s not your real main interest.

        Your interest — as you can see spattered all over this comments section and elsewhere in the site — is that you think that cops (and other public employees) should may less money. Period. You’re willing to exploit any advantage in capitalizing on public opinion to see that happen. And you apparently really want to break public employee unions.

        Now the funny thing is, I have no problem believing that cops and fire fighters may be overcompensated. I have no problem with the criticism that the previous City Council majority may have intentionally been terrible negotiators with the FPOA. (That doesn’t mean to me that people like Chaffee, Flory, and Jaramillo would be, especially with Sebourn and maybe Whitaker watching them.) I’d love to see a real debate over what such public employees would make — one that started from a fundamental concession that those who want more thrift are not out to bust employee unions or associations.

        Unfortunately, you’re poorly placed to raise that issues, because it really looks like you are out to bust unions and to do a Grover Norquist “shrink government until you can drown it in a bathtub” number — and that means that you can’t be ascribed good faith. You want government to look bad so that you can justify its elimination — and it’s replacement with, well, who knows? (Tony doesn’t need services, after all, so it’s not that important.)

        You could raise these issues responsibly. But instead, you do so with such radical disregard to community needs that it makes even people like me who see some legitimate basis for some of your criticisms (although I’d like to combine cost-cutting with revenue-enhancing) have to be on the other side just to rein you in.

        From a reform perspective, it’s sort of a tragedy — but that is what you get for being ideologues.

        1. Very well said. Matches up with the other post of why anyone would donate to the POA in May 2012. Narrow agenda with zero open mind here.

        2. Game, set, match. Greg, you hit it out of the park with your succinct analysis of the Bushalaism ideology and the cult-like following the various drooling mouth-breathers who post here subscribe to.

        3. Game, set, match! Excellent summary of Bushalaism and the cult following he receives from all the various mouth breathers who post here.

          1. “Bushalaism and the cult following’………. Hmmmm

            That definitely sounds like anti-Gentile “hate speech” and probably a “hate crime” which is repeated here over, an over, over by Golem for purpose to injure the founder of the Fullerton’s Spring.

            Golem’s mentors:
            A lie told often enough becomes the truth
            — Lenin

            If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth
            — Goebbels

            Both left wing socialists like Golem.

            1. “B…ism and the cult following’………. Hmmmm

              That definitely sounds like anti-Gentile “hate speech” and probably a “hate crime” which is repeated here over, an over, over by Golem for purpose to injure the founder of the Fullerton’s Spring.

              Golem’s mentors:
              A lie told often enough becomes the truth
              — Lenin

              If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth
              — Goebbels

              Both left wing socialists like Golem.

        4. Seriously, “Fred,” I’d like to point out a flaw in the approach. I would be eager to see better investigations of police misconduct and better discipline of those who violate the rules. (My guess is that Flory would agree. Hell, my guess is that Dan Hughes might concede that point.) But you guys don’t stop there, because that’s not your real main interest.

          With all due respect, that approach has failed for twenty years. Would you be willing to allow Nazi’s or KAR another chance? We have rape, murder and abuse clearly documented over a long period of time .

          But, then again, they had groups (unions) supporting them and squashing opposition.

          1. That’s a fair question. My sense is that with perhaps a brief exception or too you’ve had a completely compliant Council majority, cut from the cloth as the recently departed trio, over that time. I would not want to see them come back into power for the reasons that you suggest.

            I suggest that Chaffee, Flory, Jaramillo, certainly Rands, and maybe even Alvarez are not like that. They’re neither pawns of the FPOA nor bent on its destruction. Especially with Sebourn (and maybe Whitaker, if he wins) there to keep them in line — even if someone like Bankhead or (I’m told) Fitzgerald winning the third seat as a complete advocate of the cops — they’re going to have to steer a conscientious middle course between capitulation to FPOA and seeking its destruction.

            And, what do you know — that’s exactly what Fullerton needs right now!

            I do not, one bit, think that the FFFF critique of the FPD has no place in the city’s politics or should not be taken seriously. I just think that you’re going overboard with it because your real interests are in an anti-government ideology. But yes, I do want at least one FFFFster at the table to keep negotiations honest.

            (By the way, other police departments — including any that might plausibly take over policing Fullerton — have had similar sorts of problems. I wish you’d acknowledge that.)

            1. “They’re neither pawns of the FPOA..”

              Would that be the same chicken shit Chaffee who wore an “I ♥ FPD” T-shirt ON THE FREAKIN’ COUNCIL DAIS?

              1. Chaffee put on that shirt in response to the irresponsible jihad being called against the FPD. Lots of people love their local police force and yet would like to see reform. By overreaching so badly, you guys let Chaffee wear that shirt (as a protest against you) without his having to sell his soul to FPOA. Nice work!

            2. Yep, Chaffee put on the I Love FPD t-shirt. Disgraceful. Flory was against the recall. Disgraceful. Alvarez too, right? And nobody on here is lumping in Rands with these other candidates.

              As for whether similar stuff is going on elsewhere, I have no doubt. That’s why many of us showed up for the Anaheim protests too. Did Flory? Chaffee? Alvarez?

              1. As with my discussion of Chaffee above, Flory’s being against the recall was apparently a reaction to the excesses of the FFFF bloc as opposed to any particular affection for the former majority. You don’t understand that you’re no longer insurgents — for many people, FFFF’s actions have because the issue itself.

                1. What kind of excesses? Blogging? Showing up at protests? At the time of the recall there was no FFFF bloc.

        5. “You could raise these issues responsibly. But instead, you do so with such radical disregard to community needs that it makes even people like me who see some legitimate basis for some of your criticisms (although I’d like to combine cost-cutting with revenue-enhancing) have to be on the other side just to rein you in.

          From a reform perspective, it’s sort of a tragedy — but that is what you get for being ideologues.”

          SOUNDS LIKE WHO WE REPLACED IN JUNE

        6. Greg, it is your theory that criticism of flory stems solely from tony bushala’s goal to bust public unions.
          Your flawed theory ignores the obvious facts. Most people against flory and her cohorts, Bankhead, Jones, McKinley and their cronies, oppose these persons due to their illegal taxes forced upon the community of Fullerton, misuse of eminent domain and redevelopment funds, protecting a police force that systematically abused the civil rights of fullerton’s community.
          The facts show good reason to oppose flory’s election to fullerton’s city council. Her past is littered with nefarious dealings that were to the detriment to the community whose interests she vowed to represent.
          Greg, you twist these truths about Flory et al by dismissing those who fight for decency in our municipal governemnt by accusing them of being brainwashed/controlled by a cult, the church of bushalafication. Like Flory’s use of “tea bagger” and not solid eveidence to discredit her critics, you are guilty of attacking the person and not the issues to mislead the public.

          1. Demogogues often speak in generalities but want credit for speaking in specifics. If you guys really had the goods on Flory having been involved in “nefarious dealings,” I’m betting that it would have come out by now and you’d be pounding on THAT every day instead of her “looks like she’s dancing” photo.

            But you don’t. You have some policy criticisms of her (to which you are welcome, but which have less bite in a post-redevelopment era) and some extremely tenuous and weak charges of supposed wrongdoing.

            Examine your best evidence and traffic in specifics, please.

            1. “Demogogues often speak in generalities but want credit for speaking in specifics.”

              That’s amusing. You just described Quirky-quirk. Is she a demogogue (sic)? Fit’s your profile. Don’t agree? Go to her website and report back on s single specific thing.

              1. I was referring to people making charges against others speaking in generalities rather than specifics. Talking about policy in general terms is just normal politics for many. I’ve never quite gotten the hang of it, myself.

                You’re right, the word is “demagogue” with an “a”. I thought the root was “demos”? Oh well. Thanks for the correction.

                I don’t even have to look at her site to tell you that she, unlike Norby, specifically favors Title IX re girls’ and women’s athletics. Your move.

                1. And now you twist the truth in your own warped little noggin, Dimebag. Norby indicated that Title IX had negative, unintended consequences – the elimination of numerous men’s athletic programs that disappeared – like, ultimately CSUF football.

                  Clearly had that been part of the Title IX formula it would have had fewer adherents.

                  You don’t need to “move.” I am not interested in your movements or your Greek roots.

                2. flory supported and allowed an illegal water tax that was not used to maintain the city of fullerton’s water delivery system. Instead this tax was siphoned of to pay for bloated salaries and pensions of city of fullerton employees. too general for you, greg? would you like exact dates, times.
                  when you refute others on this blog, you use generalities. Rarely do you use specifics

                3. Even if what you say were true (it isn’t) Title IX is a federal mandate and has nothing to do with the State.

                  Here’s a question I want Quirk to answer: do you support Jerry Brown’s new tax? Yes or no? That’s seems pretty simple.

                4. @vanget — that charge is a generality. I do generally use specifics in refuting you. As a specific example: this comment.

                5. @’poon — Seems like a fair question. I, for example, do favor Prop 30. I think that Sharon does as well, but I don’t recall asking her about it. She may support it without choosing to make it an issue on which she campaigns. Have you ever asked her directly?

                  One’s attitude towards Title IX is awfully telling, even regarding state policies.

                6. John and Ken sure think just like TBush and his crew. They are having problems convincing the citizens to think that way though.

                7. @”Cameron” — I’m willing to go back and research Norby’s statements and positions on Title IX, but then I’ll have to write an article about it. Do you dare me?

                  I don’t know why CSUF football went away. I do have a sense from my time there why CSULB football went away — and it did not have to do with Title IX. It had to do with the incredible expense of putting on a major football program nowadays (especially in the shadow of UCLA and USC.)

          1. “Oh my”……… Hmmmmm

            Did you meant to say “Oh my God”?
            Did you plagiarized Obama again?

            Only you Golem and Onanymous should be disqualified here based on your chronic moronism.

          2. Alex Jones is an operation mockingbird CIA operative sensationalist fear monger but like rat poison contains some nutritive substantive kernels of truth can always be found in his presentations. Do you think Flory supports this kind of behavior? We didn’t hear a peep from her all of last year as the city burned with righteous indignation and for answers. Now she walks on the scene in the wake of all of the bootlicking.

  1. All I ever see posted on Jan Flory’s City Council Facebook page are posts from public employees who work for the city of Fullerton?

      1. Or hate what you would never do… leech off the rest of society. Many of us believe a union goon tax sucker job is beneath us. You will never understand that.

          1. They “feel” they work hard? I know I work hard and the people around me do too. Some I have hired and some are just part of the organization. Private sector will not carry dead weight for very long, not like public sector unions. But you would never understand that. Pull your weight or see ya. Another reason people hate on unions, but again you will never understand.

    1. If the cops can’t give any public details about a death in the jail it generally means that the cops beat him to death and are engaged in a cover up.

      If there is a suicide or someone dies of natural causes – the cops give the details right up front. They don’t hide it. They only hide it when they did something wrong. 😀

      They operate under the same rules as the criminals do!!! 😀

      Stay tuned.

  2. JustUs :
    If the cops can’t give any public details about a death in the jail it generally means that the cops beat him to death and are engaged in a cover up.
    If there is a suicide or someone dies of natural causes – the cops give the details right up front. They don’t hide it. They only hide it when they did something wrong.
    They operate under the same rules as the criminals do!!!
    Stay tuned.

    What else is new. Every day these animals are executing citizens. What disturbs me is the corrupt lapd captain who was let off the hook for covering up the viscious assault on that 90lb handcuffed woman which was caught on video. GRAND MASTER LAPD CHIEFTAIN BECK IS SQUASHING THAT INCIDENT NOW.

  3. The original story here says,

    “Here’s a semi-literate comment, aimed at the Boss”

    So Kiger is finally admitting that Bushala is the boss?

  4. Wow. How do you think Gin looks in the mirror each morning? There is a special place in hell for people like her.

    I am so bored with the “the Bushala is the bad guy/King/slumlord/deep pocket/vote buyer/etc ” drum banging, it is now just white noise.

    1. He’s not a “bad guy”; he’s an ideologue and there’s problems with his ideology, but that doesn’t make him evil. I have no idea whether he’s a slumlord.

      But how do you argue that he’s not a deep pocket and a vote buyer? Of course he is. He’s doing it legally, but that doesn’t mean he’s not doing it. Do you think that Kiger (or maybe even Whitaker) would have a chance in November if Tony weren’t going to spend far more on them than all other candidates will spend combined?

      1. Is that the same sonny black who got fired by Orange PD, later arrested by FPD and then hired by FPD?!?! Yup, no camps, just Danny’s camp and everyone else 🙁

      2. You are equally distasteful and it doesn’t seem to stop you.

        Somehow you think your ideology is superior, you spew your version of venom, maybe if you went away…..Nevermind, you don’t actually do anything. Just talk.

        Another wasted chance at reform: Greg Diamond.

        I have to wonder why you don’t get off your soapbox and kick Huff’s ass? Are you a paper tiger?

        It occours to me that GD is more interested in string things up than fixing them.

        Give us something to fight for…not against.

        1. I don’t think that you know much about what I do.

          I’m raising money. What money I raise will go towards beating Huff. What money I don’t raise — won’t. Pretty simple.

          I’m not all that ideological, actually; more of a pragmatist. It’s just that these days pragmatists end up seeming like radicals. And most of my supposed “venom” here is pure self-defense. Compare the comments aimed at me with my retorts. Seriously, it’s all here in black and white.

            1. No, I’m doing it the more traditional way, through direct appeals to donors.

              Well, come to think of it, judging from my opponents filings, I guess the more traditional way is sucking up to industry lobbyists who want handouts from government. I’m not doing that.

  5. How come anytime I try and post something with the name Boooshahla or Kyger it doesn’t post and I get the message, “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”?

    At least most of them make it through, but some of them don’t. I just want to make people aware of this.

      1. “There’s a list of terms that kick a comment into moderation. B*shala is one;”………. Hmmmmm

        How about your Orange Juice list of terms?…… Golem?

        You are probably the biggest oppressor of human rights in the blog-sphere and it is you who is bitching here about moderation.

        You are classical paranoid-complaining-Jew.

        Please spare me of your anti-Semitic-stigmatic-crapola.

        You may as well accuse me of a witchcraft that may gave you more leverage here you idiot!

  6. Here’s what I wanted to post, now with the names misspelled:

    The original story here says,

    “Here’s a semi-literate comment, aimed at the Boss”

    So Kyger is finally admitting that Booshahla is the boss?

    1. Well, since Shadow is female, and “Kyger” is male, and everybody who blogs here refers to TB as Boss, no, it means nothing of the sort. Nice try though.

      1. How are we supposed to know that that is true? It’s interesting to know, though, that people’s identities are only secret from some others. That means that probably many of you can tell whether Travis and Tony (among others) are posting pseudonymously. (I wonder if that will come out before the election?)

        1. My guess is that 90% of the posters here are Tony, Travis, Greg, JustUs, and me. 80% are Tony and Travis posting under all their aliases.

          1. I’m pretty sure Kyger posts as himself, but given that this is election season it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that he’s posting under various names….better to hide in the shadows. I have no doubt that most if not all of the regulars on this site are paid in some way by Bushalaka. If it wasn’t for his stipend, Joe S. and the Shadow would be living in a porta pottie!

        2. Because Shadow refers to herself as “she.” Nice conspiracy theory you guys have about Tony and Travis though. They must not have lives since they’re always posting.

          1. Bingo. Us 4 are the only ones on here 24/7. We are the only ones with no jobs. Well Travis and Tony run this blog so I guess that’s a job. 🙂

      1. Because all PDs and Firemen support the FPD and their future? Not everyone thinks FPD is corrupt and looks at the past. Normal people look at the changes and support everything FPD does in the future. I know that’s hard for FFFF to accept but that’s the truth. Most Fullerton citizens support FPD as well. It’s the future. Not the past.

      2. Only because this was directed at me….

        Kelly Thomas’ death didn’t happen because FPD cops are evil or there is organized corruption rampant in FPD. It was a situation where Ramos very unprofessionally handled the initial contact with Kelly Thomas, leading to an unnecessary escalation, with some contributing resistance from Kelly, resulting in his death.

        Now I know you’re all going to jump all over my “contributing” comment above, but don’t misconstrue this. Kelly is not responsible for his death. FPD is. I also believe it was appropriate to file criminal charges, although T-Rack overcharged. It wasn’t murder, and if the jury convicts of murder based upon emotion, it won’t hold up on appeal.

        FPD prior to Kelly Thomas was an old school department in a community oriented policing modern world. The attitude of some of their officers absolutely sucked, us vs. them. It developed as a result of poor leadership by McKinley, combined with his resistance to adapt to modern policing. Sellers was hired for one reason, and one reason only….he was friends with McKinley. Sellers’ only motivation? To increase his retirement, not to make any changes. He just wanted to cruise (on the job and off) for a couple of years. Combine this with some poor training that likely resulted from poor or non-existent leadership at the very top, and was a recipe for disaster (or an unnecessary death).

        Now, all this having been said, the vast majority of Fullerton officers are decent men and women who want to be better officers, and the department as a whole wants be a better department. I’ve got many friends who work as officers at a wide variety of departments, and we’ve all got gripes about some of the poor officers we work with. Every department has at least some poor officers. Get them all working on the same shift, under a poor supervisor, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, and this could happen in a lot of places.

        I don’t believe for a second that Ramos and Cicinelli had any intent to do anything other than take Kelly Thomas into custody when Kelly stood up. Their poor training, poor decision making, and what I assume was ongoing poor supervision, allowed one bad decision to turn into a series of bad decisions exponentially increasing the impact of each preceding bad decision, culminating in Kelly Thomas’ death.

        And that’s not to say all the guys involved in Kelly Thomas were poor officers….I don’t know them. You get called code three to a guy fighting, and when you get there, you look for a limb to grab and try to immobilize the suspect and take him into custody. You don’t have the luxury of knowing what occurred before you got there. That’s what appears to me to have happened with some of the guys who came upon the scene later. I can totally see myself, or many of my friends, arriving late to the scene and later having the mob with burning torches (or the burning torch blog, as it may be) come after me. Yet I know that I am a good, honest, and caring officer who, if I had been at the scene from the beginning, never would have allowed the situation to escalate to the point it did.

        There are other Kelly Thomas incidents at other departments waiting to happen, but it’s unlikely it’s going to happen at Fullerton. The spotlight has shone brightly, McKinley and Sellers are gone, the old school cops are no longer in favor, and Dan Hughes seems to be doing a good job in remedying the problems in the department.

        It’s for a combination of all these issues that you see other public safety associations contributing to FPOA. If I were in the same situation, I would expect them to do the same for my association. Bushala, Kiger, Whitaker, Sebourn, and the majority of people on this blog want to get rid of the entire department based upon the actions of a few. You also want policing on the cheap. Lower pay and benefits mean the quality applicants go somewhere else. It’s a damned complicated and difficult job to do correctly, and you want to hire people with degrees with common sense. Those people tend to excel at whatever they want to do, and if you lower the pay and benefits, you’re not going to attract them. That leaves nothing but poor candidates to hire, which will make incidents like Kelly Thomas far more frequent in the future.

        I could go on and on, but I have somewhere to be. I hope I’ve clearly communicated my feelings on this, as I don’t have any more time to put into it.

        1. Thanks.

          Now explain Hampton, Tong, Thayer, Siliceo, Major, Wren, Mejia, Coffman, Mater, Baughman, etc., etc.

          No Culture of Corruption? Where were all the “decent” cops? We’d really like to know.

          Right.

        2. Thanks for writing that.

          That was what we needed to hear about 14 months ago. I’m not saying I agree with or believe all of that, but still, its appreciated. Do you want to tell us what dept you work for or would that blow your cover? Anyway, better late than never.

        3. You have your opinion…..I dont think Ramos was unprofessional at all. I think Wolf and
          Ramos were talking to Kelly at his level. Especially when Kelly started mouthing out the F word and talking about his balls. I do agree T-Rack overcharged them. Infact, I think he shouldnt have charged them at all. If I would try to file a case like Kelly’s he would of threw me out his office. I think there is some corruption, Gennaco just didnt want to go that way. I do not believe it was poor training. Trying to take a psycho to jail and he is fighting with all his might. They were not expecting that from a skinny, dirty homeless guy. The biggest mistake was the Chief skipping town. He turned his back on his officers. No one does that no matter the incident. He didnt have nothing vested in that department. He was there for a few years to increase his retirement. That is so true. Yes, you dont know the six officers, but I do. They are all very hard working dedicated people.

          1. To clarify a couple of things I didn’t have time for yesterday…..

            Ramos was unprofessional. Wolfe was not. Wolfe was distracted, away from Thomas, and investigating what Ramos and Wolfe had very reasonably and honestly believed was stolen mail. Wolfe probably couldn’t hear much, if any, of the interaction between Ramos and Thomas due to the noise from the passing traffic and patrol car engine. I think Wolfe only went to his baton because he looked up and saw Thomas on his feet and that Ramos’ baton was out and raised, and Wolfe made some reasonable, but incorrect, assumptions about what had just occurred between Ramos and Thomas. I think it was appropriate not to charge Wolfe.

            One other thing I want people to think about.

            Once you switch to OCSD, there’s no putting the genie back in the bottle. It’s not a decision that’s going to be able to be undone. The logistics and the costs are overwhelming, especially as budgets become stretched thin. OCSD doesn’t provide nearly the level of service that FPD provides. OCSD Deputies tend to stand around at scenes pointing fingers at each other trying to push off doing any work at all. I could tell you some mind boggling stories about that.

            Also, although I won’t describe the exact circumstance, I can assure you from personal experience that FPD has made significant changes. There was a problem with something, I didn’t identify myself as a cop, and FPD took very proactive action, to include more than one call personally from Dan Hughes to express his concern and to explain how the problem was addressed.

            Fullertonista, I do not wish to give any clues about my identity or where I work. And, yes, this sort of information absolutely should have been communicated to the public as soon as possible, by Sellers, after the incident. If you don’t get out in front of something like this and give the information, warts and all, then the press and public are going to make up their own very ugly and usually incorrect version of what occurred. Sellers had neither the inclination or the ability to provide leadership after this event and should have never been hired as Chief in the first place, and blame for this can only be placed on him. I’m guessing most FPD officers would privately tell you the same thing.

            1. I respect your honest answers and opinion, and do agree that I’ve seen significant and sincere reform from Captain Daniel Hughes since he took over the department for Kevin Hamilton.

              I also agree with what you said earlier about Chief Sellers abandoning the department and literally selling the FPD down the river by taking the cowards way out.

              Having been in the military myself, I have a very hard time comprehending the level of cowardice and lack of honor that Chief Michael Sellers displayed last summer by abandoning his troops when they needed him to stand and deliver.

            2. Yes I agree Wolf shouldnt have been charged, nor I believe Ramos should of been charged. 2nd degree murder for saying See these fists. If you dont do what I tell you. Ridiculous.

            3. I agree Wolf shouldnt have been charged. But neither should have Ramos. 2nd degree murder for saying, See these fist, they are gonna f you up,”if you dont start listening”. That was ridiculous! If anything they both should of been charged with a very small charge, just to shut the police haters.

        4. CCCB3’s:

          I think that we both agree that the leadership of FPD in the past was severely lacking, and with leadership being so key to the success or failure of an organization in the future, who would you like to see as the next Chief of Police of Fullerton?

          1. There are valid arguments both for and against bringing in someone from the outside. It’s not like I have a list of names…..and even if I did, that probably wouldn’t help me anyway. Oral interviews and having a good grip on someone’s personality and skills is very important. Evaluating someone on paper and employment history alone is worthless.

            Based upon my personal experiences, I think it’s almost always better to promote from within if there is somebody qualified. I think that Hughes has a good understanding of the department, has made significant changes for the better, wants the job, and likely plans to stick around for a few years. Bring in someone from the outside and there is a steep learning curve, and positive changes can slow down or stop for months until the new Chief understands the department and decides on how he wants to proceed. Hughes and FPD seem to have good, positive momentum right now.

            If someone is brought in from the outside, it’s got to be someone of exceptional quality. My preference would be for someone on the younger side with a few years left in his career. However, with all the rancor, largely from Booshakalaka and FFFF, along with Kyger, Wit Taker, and Noseeborn’s (see what I have to do to avoid moderation?) but push for OCSD, nobody in his right mind would come in from the outside because the City has shown itself to be very unstable with respect to City Council leadership and direction.

            Put yourself in an outside Chief’s candidate’s shoes…..leave job security for an at will position with a City Council actively pushing for OCSD? You’ve just eliminated the possibility of attracting ANY qualified outside applicants. You would only get applications from unqualified people and disgruntled command staff being pushed out by their current employer for what are probably valid reasons. I’d seriously question the judgement and qualifications of anyone from outside FPD who applied for the position.

            It is because of all this that I strongly feel the City’s best bet is to stick with Hughes. Strong focus should be given to objectively evaluating Hughes’ performance since becoming interim Chief. Don’t place too much emphasis on the past, as the City and the PD needs to look foward. Unless there’s something significant there that I’m not aware of, Hughes seems to be a wise choice.

            1. I tend to agree with your assessment. I too also believe that Captain Daniel Hughes, who was born and raised, and still has his parents living here in Fullerton, would be our best choice as our next Police Chief.

              In other words, Captain Hughes has invested his whole life in Fullerton, and IMHO would be the last person to abandon or that would recklessly run the department into the ground, the way that Michael Sellers did.

              1. I tend to agree. I don’t presume that he’d be a good Chief, but he seems like a decent bet, and he understands the level of scrutiny he’d face. I guess that Bill Hunt is the other option being openly discussed; I can’t get past the Arpaio association.

              2. Too bad he was the boss of all the goons. No getting past that salient fact.

                He was either OK with what was happening or just ignorant of it. No good either way.

                BTW, please don’t confuse the idea of “investment” with experience. Al Capone was not “invested” in either Chicago or Alcatraz. At least not in positive ways.

            2. You sound like me. I haven’t seen you write like this before today. Impressive. I like it.

              The biggest issue in the future for qualified Chief’s will be what’s the benefit of being Chief when you can stay at LT or Capt and have the same pension but more protection from politicians? Chief’s are at will. LT and Capts are protected from political firings. Once pensions are capped at $132k a year, I think most good LTs and Capts will just choose to stay at that rank and retire at that rank. Sad but true. The future of good Chief’s might be a thing of the past now.

              1. Captain Hughes is someone that allowed me and others here in Fullerton, to have peaceful civil protests in front of the FPD every Saturday last summer.

                Captain Hughes also respected our right to assemble peacefully, and even tore up any tickets that had been issued for excessive honking, after he had said earlier in the day that motorists wouldn’t be issued tickets…only warnings.

                I look at what’s best for my city right now, and I don’t think that the answer is Bill Hunt…I believe that our next Chief should be Captain Daniel Hughes.

                1. Captain Hughes is not God. He did not allow you to protest. If you are under the belief you need permission from corrupt cops to protest a murder by a police officer then you are severely confused and I question your motives for protesting in the first place.

                  Dan Hughes was at fpd and in a position of power when the 6 accused officers (plus countless others involved in the cover up) were allowed to watch the video of Kelly Thomas’ murder over and over and over to get their stories straight. His only statement to us regarding this is that it was a mistake, no names of guilty parties. Who let them watch the video, Dan?

                  So much for Captain Transparency.

                2. Dan Hughes also spoke to protesters last summer, and said he had seen the video himself (though it was still being held from the public and family of the victim) and that we would feel differently about who was at fault for Kelly Thomas’ murder after they eventually decided to share information with citizens and release the video.

                  You were right, Dan. After watching the video of Kelly Thomas being killed by SIX men in uniform, I realize guilt isn’t limited to the six men that actively held him down and beat him.

                  Every single one of you that has sworn to protect and serve the community, then watched the recording of that murder, trying to plan how to help them get away with it, is guilty in my eyes.

                  When the people PAID WELL by our city’s tax dollars to keep us safe conspire to kill us and cover it up, how can you ask us to believe that one of these corrupt officers would do well in a position of power over us.

                  Wake up, people, Dan Hughes is just another face for Sellers and McKinley. Nothing will change until we get true transparency and accountability for all of those involved in this murder and cover up.

                3. No man or woman is God. I’m pretty clear on that.

                  Perhaps I should clarify that only Fullerton police officer that was consistently front and center during the protests last summer, was Captain Daniel Hughes.

                  He was consistently working WITH the protesters to ensure that no one got hurt on either side during the protests.

                  If you think that was easy task, I suggest you review what happened to some of the policeman and the protesters in front of the Anaheim PD a couple of months ago.

                4. How about this?

                  I’ll support Hughes for chief when he supports the people by removing all 6 guilty officers from their positions in fullerton, and when he stops feeding us just enough bullshit to pacify us and make the less aware protesters feel like he is out for change and justice, while actively stabbing us in the back by ignoring our rights and over abusing the rights of his officers.

                5. He was there to LIE TO YOU and set up his eventually play for Chief.

                  “I saved Fullerton. See? I’m pulling the wool over peoples eyes and making this all seem okay while letting my officers get away with murder and they will pay me more and respect me for it.”

                  Name one thing Hughes has pushed for or accomplished in the name of justice since last July that we, the people, didn’t have to fight and push like crazy for.

                  He will get away with hiring them back too if we don’t make it clear we won’t stand for it. All Hughes is is a better smile on a face we have seen for far too long around my city. And the fact that council, and some residents, are behind him just shows how much further we have to go.

                  Yes, he was at a few of the protests last year, but if you think for one second that was for you, or me, or Kelly, and not his own selfish desires and corrupt wishes to smooth things over, you are kidding yourself. Wake up!

                6. Anonyface:

                  Your entitled to your opinion, however in the process of trying to advance your arguments against Captain Daniel Hughes, I would suggest that you not attack my personal level of political awareness, or raise doubts about my savoir-faire.

                  I’ll run circles around you any day of the week.

                7. I was vague. If you are offended by what I said maybe there is a reason for that.

                  I’m not here to run circles around other posters, that is a distraction tactic used by the ignorant and guilty, I am here to express my disgust in the support of Hughes by anyone who claims to seek justice.

                  It’s only because I feel you must be misinformed or brainwashed to think he is our best option. I’m trying to help 🙂

                8. Great opinions. Great ideas. Fact is that Hughes reverts back to Captain until retirement if they go with an outside Chief. There will be no discipline for Hughes so he will stay as Chief with full seniority. So Hughes will always be running the show even as Captain. That’s your future. Or OCSD? Then Hughes would be a Lieutenant somewhere in the OC with the FPD boys in Fullerton and spread around OC with some jail deps in Fullerton. It’s up to the City in terms of what they want in the future. Like many have said, if you go OCsD you will never have your own PD again. Never. So look to the future and decide. 🙂

                1. grow up, let them post. We, who live in Fullerton want to see things move forward. I am still trying to recover from watching our council, look like fools last meeting.

                2. Agree cg. Problem is politicians will always leave you scratching your head even if you think you own them.

              2. Porky Pig :
                You sound like me. I haven’t seen you write like this before today. Impressive. I like it.

                If someone maturely asks my opinion and seems willing to listen to and actually consider the validity of my response, I’m happy to give it whether I think they will agree or not. Unfortunately, it’s much easier and quicker to be snarky towards the vast majority of people here who do nothing but trade insults and paint all police officers with a broad brush.

                I think this is the first time anyone asked for my opinion without it seeming like a pre-planned attack, so I felt compelled to give a thorough and reasoned response.

                I am passionate about my chosen profession and feel strongly that it is an honorable one.

                My main goal here is to point out hypocracy and bring hidden agendas to light. Short, snarky remarks can accomplish that as well.

                1. I’ll give yo hypocrisy. Standing up in public and complaining about vulgarity on this site when in fact 99% of the vile trash is spewed by two Fullerton cop trolls.

                2. It may be an honorable profession in theory but it has not been in practice in Fullerton. Someone earlier asked about all the other police abuse cases in Fullerton. If FPD was 99% good officers we wouldn’t have heard all the reports of brutality we heard. We’re not talking just one or two, but scores of cases of people being beaten, assaulted, falsely arrested, perjured against, falsely imprisoned, etc. Case after case after case. I welcome your trying to honestly address questions, so I invite you to go through the archives of this blog and look at the various cases described. Start with Veth Mam, Andrew Trevor Clarke, Eddie Quinonez, Chris Spicer Janku. Explain to me how an honest, professional, non-corrupt organization would allow this kind of blatant misconduct and brutality to go on, and on, and on. Until Kelly was murdered and the whole thing blew up.

                3. The Fullertonista :
                  It may be an honorable profession in theory but it has not been in practice in Fullerton. Someone earlier asked about all the other police abuse cases in Fullerton. If FPD was 99% good officers we wouldn’t have heard all the reports of brutality we heard. We’re not talking just one or two, but scores of cases of people being beaten, assaulted, falsely arrested, perjured against, falsely imprisoned, etc. Case after case after case. I welcome your trying to honestly address questions, so I invite you to go through the archives of this blog and look at the various cases described. Start with Veth Mam, Andrew Trevor Clarke, Eddie Quinonez, Chris Spicer Janku.

                  I’m aware of the Veth Mam case and watched the video, but I’m not that familiar with the others.

                  Much, if not all, of this can be traced back to poor supervision and a lack of training.

                  You say “scores of cases”, yet named 4. Give me even one score, compare that against the number of calls or even arrests in a year, or whatever period all these incidents occurred. I don’t mean to be confrontational since we’re having a decent and respectful discussion here, but “scores”? C’mon.

                  I’m not saying the number is insignificant, but experience tells me that FPD supervisors and FTOs didn’t place enough emphasis on the truth and “doing the right thing” (something I drill into my trainees) during training, and sergeants didn’t carefully read reports, or get properly briefed on the incidents before approving reports. To someone on the inside, it sounds like a training and supervision problem. To someone on the outside, it sounds like corruption.

                  So many people cried/whined/alleged corruption because the officers were allowed to review the video before writing reports on Kelly Thomas. Well, cases like Veth Mam happen because video WASN’T reviewed by the arresting officer, and/or his sergeant, before the finalization of the report. This is precisely why a good officer will review the video when writing his report. I’ve arrested people in melees involving several people, just like the Mam incident, only to review video back at the station and discover that I was mistaken in what occurred. It happens in physical incidents involving numerous people. The difference is that my arrestees were released without charges, and my report reflected what I originally thought happened vs. what I later saw on the video.

                  It’s important to train officers that this will happen occasionally, but that it’s critical that if you made a mistake to admit that you did so and explain why you made that mistake. It’s also important that the department not unduly punish somebody when they raise their hand and say loudly without hesitation, “I fucked up.” And, of course, it’s important to release the arrestee without charges the moment you realize that this occurred.

                4. @Joe Sip — that is ridiculous. If Tony will come up with the money I’d be happy to try to get graduate students to code comments here in terms of “trashiness”. It’s not going to be 99% from the two strong FPD defenders, closer to the reverse.

        5. Very good comment. I think that you meant to say “Ramos and Wolfe … when Kelly stood up.” Cicinelli falls into the “get called code three” paragraph, but his reaction was massively unprofessional. The others (regardless of their involvement in other incidents) were pretty much as you say.

          The last sentence in your second-to-last paragraph is, to me, absolutely critical.

          1. Greg Diamond :
            I think that you meant to say “Ramos and Wolfe … when Kelly stood up.”

            Yes, I meant Wolfe. Pressed for time, unable to edit after posting. Please forgive a couple other typos in my posts as well.

            A couple of people posted about Bill Hunt, so while I’m feeling so talkative, I’ll chime in about that as well.

            First off, let me say that illegal immigration is a problem in this country and something should be done about it on a federal level.

            Regardless of how one feels about illegal immigration, I feel quite strongly about providing equal service to all regardless of immigration status. Arpaio’s methods have created an entire class of ready-made victims for criminals. Victims are afraid to report crimes committed against them, and witnesses are afraid to come forward and cooperate with prosecutions. This encourages criminals to prey upon illegal immigrants, and makes it less likely for suspects to be prosecuted and convicted. This encourages more criminal behavior overall. Hunt’s open admiration for Arpaio, and Hunt’s pandering to that particular segment of the politcal spectrum is rather disturbing. My badge says, “Police”, not “Border Patrol” or “ICE”.

            Hunt was the clear choice when it came down to Hunt or Corona. I voted for Hunt. Kinda like the situation with Kyger for a lot of people….the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But when faced with a better choice of candidates, Hunt doesn’t seem to me to be such a great idea.

            Sorry for the double post way below.

        6. I agree with you 99.9%. Great analysis. Excpt that you profer that this is just the stuff than happens and I profer that this is the stuff that just can’t happen.

  7. Did you folks happen to see the salaries for Anaheim’s pigs and hose pullers?

    Avg compensation over $180k.

    $192k if you factor in the City’s pension contributions.

    Well over $200k if discounted properly.

    More than most medical doctors. Plus, they retire much earlier than medical doctors.

    These are GED and high school education dorks with inside connections. How else do you think a HS grad could land a job that comps over $200k a year??? NEPOTISM!!!!

    No doubt the City of Fulllerton pigs and hose pullers are comped similarly.

    See your taxdollars at waste:

    http://www.californiapublicpolicycenter.org/anaheim-california-city-employee-compensation-analysis/

  8. You pigs are no better than thieves. Common criminal thieves who wear badges. You are no better than the mexican cops. As a matter of fact, I have more respect for the mexican cops. At least they admit to being thieves. You slime buckets feign to be honorable and just and everything good. More and more are catching on to your scam and see you for what you really are. Snakes in the grass. 🙂

    1. And every cop in the USA would be happy that you think that exact way. Of all people it’s great you think so low of cops. POS like you deserve nothing more.

      1. Not just me who thinks this way, Pigman. It’s half the American population and the sentiment is growing by leaps and bounds daily.

        Don’t blame us. You Pigs did it to yourselves. 🙂

  9. Hey, What’s the matter with you people, it’s a holiday.

    If you were a Fullerton Cop, you’d be pulling down a triple shift (@ $2,100 for the weekend).

    But most in the civil service (you know clerks and such) stretch these holidays. Take off a friday before, and a Tuesday, Wednesday after then call in sick Thursday, Friday and you get nine days off PAID.

    Now, if you are a Fireman, it gets better, work three 12’s call in sick then work the next day and you get a 25% bump for working the same hours.

    This is what unions do for US!

    Quit bitching and enjoy the PAID holiday weekend, courtesy of Fullerton citizens (excluding Greg of course.).

    1. Amen. Thank you unions for all you have requested for us all over the years. You asked and the people granted. Sometimes 1% a year sometimes 3%. Always consistent with the economy and always fair. Thank you. 🙂

  10. Just wondering what kind of a police officer would give himself a nickname trying to sound like a mafia member. Freudian slip?

  11. “We are after change and won’t stop until we get it”…………. Hmmmmm

    Only if you ban Golem from this forum!

    HE IS AN AGITATOR!

    HE IA A SABOTEUR!

    HE IS HATER OF YOUR CHANGE!

    HE IS CLOSETED COMMUNIST

    HE IS (…)

    If you, the pro-change leaders, do not see it than you are blind and you will fail.

  12. For all the CRAZy ramblings from Comrade’ Stanley, he hit the nail on the head:

    HE’S AN AGITATOR!

    That appears to be exactly what Greg has become. Giving up a rightous campaign to debate minute points on behalf of Public Employee Unions, Democratic Canidates and other causes aligned with the EXTREME left.

    Greg Diamond will insert himself into any newsworthy cause on behalf of his party, based on publicity. Often overlooking travesties and injustice simply to satisy his Democratic cause.

    No wonder people are disgusted with the two party system.

    Shill away Mr. Brea.

    1. Sure, I’m an agitator. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not, though, merely an agitator.

      I don’t get involved only with “newsworthy causes.” How much do you hear about Bylaws reform? I want the Democratic Party to be in as good fighting shape as the Republicans — and, for that matter, as this blog (which is admirable in that respect.)

      I haven’t “given up my campaign.” I’m doing what I can do within my resources. (I’m also saving resources up for the end, admittedly.)

      1. “Sure, I’m an agitator”……….. Hmmmmm

        You may be a fucking agitator to be more accurate.

        You are perpetually promulgating stigmatic statements in this forum by which you promote hate of the true Fullerton intellectuals who are forming another American idea of how should a local government govern.

        By doing so, you are agitating moron mongoloids in this forum to bring a violence against the leaders of the Fullerton Spring.

        Furthermore, you are self proclaimed occupier aka anarchist, therefore, a transformer and destroyer.

        Caveat: If something will happen to these brave men and women Golem, I will personally hold you responsible in the court of law.

        1. He may have a unique way of conveying his message, but you’ve got to hand it to Stanley Fiala’s sense of persistence it attempting to keep Gasbag Golem (aka Greg Diamond) in check.

          I’d like to nominate him or some sort of FFFF award for being the only blogger that Greg Diamond was so offended by that he banned him from his blog.

          1. :”moron mongoloids”
            My vote is for “most offensive”
            I do not mind that he post on FFFF, but this is just wrong……Can you ban both of them.

          2. “I’d like to nominate him or some sort of FFFF award”…….. Hmmmmm

            It is too early for any words!

            The old Bohemian cliché teaches us: “Do not say jump before you hop”.

            However, if you ever form any FPD commission list, I wold be honored to get on a long side of it!……. even as carpetbagger.

      2. I’m proud to call you my friend Greg and I know you are a friend of Fullerton. I’m also one of “Flory’s Flock” and hope to see the end of Bushala’s coup.

      3. I just wish you had the street sense to do some actual good instead of contantly debating policy, sure the world needs guys like you, just not here.

        It would be more than fair to say that the FFFF has affected more change in 18 months than you have in your whole life.

        There are something like 30 blogs in the area and these guys actually did something.

        Take a cue man. Shit, some of us might even stump for you (OK thats a stretch) but, seriously SHUT THE FUCK UP sometimes. Not always, just sometimes, we don’t always need to hear how rightous you are.

        Again the word that has yet to penetrate the Diamond phyche is: HUMILITY.

        those kids you write about are in for a tough existence Greg. Settle the fuck down.

        Do you have a big brother that you can call, you need one!

        1. We differ, I expect, in whether we think that what happened in Wisconsin (and what was and is being attempted in Costa Mesa) is good or not. You say yes, I say no. I don’t assert that unions are not capable of abusing their privileges, but I don’t think that that is the big problem we have right now (and to the extent that it is it can be addressed with lower caliber firearms.)

          As I’ve said repeatedly, I do admire the role that FFFF played, especially early on, regarding pushing for the truth regarding Kelly Thomas and pushing for reform in FPD. I see no contradiction between that and thinking that, given power, you guys are likely to go out of control in a direction that I think is inappropriate. You apparently think that I should just step aside and let it happen. Thanks, but no.

          If this were Mission Viejo or something, I’d probably just comment from afar. But it’s not — it’s right in my backyard, my neighborhood, right across the street, and as someone with both the understanding and gall to bring it up, I think that this is an excellent use of my time. Its effect on my likelihood of winning the Senate race or not is pretty minimal; I lose some votes and I gain others. In a district with 450,000 voters, you’re not as big of a bloc as you think.

          You can take my focus on FFFF as a compliment. You’re smarter and have more resources and more legitimate grievances than the Costa Mesa people. If the new Council majority had scaled back its ambitions, I could have afforded to ignore it — but it didn’t. This is not what I had wanted or expected to spend this year doing, but your likely overreach is a serious problem and as someone who cares about policy it demands my attention (and my thick skin.)

          You have no idea what change I’ve effected “in my whole life”; actually, I’m pretty good in that regard. As part of FFFF, you are in no position to lecture anyone about “humility.” I’m not clear on your reference to my kids, but they are fine — less political than me, but smart, engaged, well-behaved and delightful. Nope, all my sibs are younger (and also doing well.)

  13. Im letting all you cops posting on this sight that I have finished my IT background check and now have a complete list of addresses and names of all posters . So beware we will find you and you will pay.

  14. Good post Travis. Anyone who disagrees with you , whitaker or Tony should have there name, photo and address posted on this blod.

  15. Did you fine people know that the OCSD fatal shooting of Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins in San Clemente is 7 months old – without any report from the DA’s office and without the release of Sgt. Loggin’s autopsy to the public? It didn’t take that long to get a report on the Columbine shootings! 😉

    Hmmm. Something to hide?

    If not for the pressure placed on the DA’s office by Kelly’s Army for their findings on Kelly’s murder – no doubt that would have been buried too. And all 6 cops would be working patrol in Fullerton.

    So those in high places only seek justice on their club members when they are forced into it. When they have no way out. Otherwise it’s a guaranteed whitewash.

    Keep your eye on the Sgt. Manuel Loggins’ fatal shooting. Don’t forget about him. He was a decorated military man who served us all.

  16. Do you folks realize that it’s been 7 long months since OCSD fatally gunned down Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins in San Clemente? As you might recall – OCSD blasted him in the front seat of his car as he sat only feet in front of his 2 young daughters in the back seat.

    Yet we have no report or findings from the DA’s office. The autopsy is also being concealed from the public. Hmmm? Something to hide?

    Within 7 months we had a report on the Columbine shootings in Colorado.

    Imagine if not for Kelly’s Army and the pressure it placed on the DA. How long would it have taken to get a report on Kelly’s death? And would all 6 cops still be working the Fullerton streets?

    I guess if you happen to be a club member on the wrong side of the law findings tend to get buried unless there is an outcry for justice. Funny how that works.

    Please keep Sgt. Loggins in mind on this Labor Day holiday. Don’t forget about him. He was a decorated military man who served us all.

  17. anonyface :
    Dan Hughes also spoke to protesters last summer, and said he had seen the video himself (though it was still being held from the public and family of the victim) and that we would feel differently about who was at fault for Kelly Thomas’ murder after they eventually decided to share information with citizens and release the video.
    You were right, Dan. After watching the video of Kelly Thomas being killed by SIX men in uniform, I realize guilt isn’t limited to the six men that actively held him down and beat him.
    Every single one of you that has sworn to protect and serve the community, then watched the recording of that murder, trying to plan how to help them get away with it, is guilty in my eyes.
    When the people PAID WELL by our city’s tax dollars to keep us safe conspire to kill us and cover it up, how can you ask us to believe that one of these corrupt officers would do well in a position of power over us.
    Wake up, people, Dan Hughes is just another face for Sellers and McKinley. Nothing will change until we get true transparency and accountability for all of those involved in this murder and cover up.

    i totally agree

  18. If you were being vague than let me be more specific on what you wrote…

    “and make the less aware protesters feel like he is out for change and justice”

    Try your passive-aggressive tactics on someone else.

    1. Less aware was the nice way of saying it. In on the corruption would be the other.

      Let’s be very clear, then. Do you feel that Hughes has been on the side of truth and justice and not out to protect his own officers since last July?

      If so can you please explain why he allowed the video to be watched, won’t take the blame for that or clue us in on who made the decision to allow it, why he implied to protesters we would feel differently after watching the video, and why he is backing 3 of the officers return to duty?

      Explain how any of that is in our best interest and should earn him a promotion please.

      1. If you think that I’m “in on the corruption”, than that tells me you have a closed (and not too perceptive) mind that can be easily manipulated.

        1. Way to not answer the questions. Again, it was vague, if you took offense, so be it.

          I presented my case for why Hughes is a bad choice for Chief. Why can’t you support your belief that he should be promoted?

          1. anonyface, your logic about Hughes is perfect. He tried to whitewash the Kelly Thomas murder after the fact by allowing the killer cops to rewrite their reports while watching the video.

            Anyone who defends Hughes is part of the problem.

            Hughes is not trustworthy.

            Hughes is not worthy to be the Chief of Police in Fullerton.

            1. I find the rewriting of the reports very disturbing and I do think that he (or whoever took that initiative) has to answer for it. He could still be the best available choice despite it, but it is a real concern. See? Common ground.

              1. Common ground, eh? Prove it by addressing that issue at the mike, next meeting.

                And next time you see Flrby ask her why she finds nothing untoward about it; and if she does why she’s never said squat about Kelly Thomas (except generalities and always in writing).

                1. I agree. Diamond, if you are actually well-intentioned towards Fullerton than find out why Flory remained silent for a year after Kelly Thomas, except to chastise people speaking out at public comments for being “rude” to Bankhead, McKinley and Jones.

                2. For the year after the Kelly Thomas killing, Flory was not much of a public figure. (I don’t think that she had had any intention of running this year, except that there was a need and she was enough of a fighter to do it — something I’d think you’d admire.) I’ve never spoken to her about the rewriting of the reports; I wouldn’t talk about them myself simply because as I understand it Hughes already conceded the point. What’s the point (other than didactic) of belaboring it? Make him concede it again?

                  I think that Flory, like many people across the political spectrum, thought that the constant haranguing of the previous majority was not just unseemly, but made good governance much more difficult. It was both rude (as intended) and disproportionate (because while the case was sitting with the DA there really were limits on what they could do. I could never tell whether you guys really didn’t understand that or if you were just pretending not to.)

                  The agitation was good politics for you guys, to the extent that it primed people for the recall, but that it was political raised the question of whether it was worthwhile for it to lead to an ideological capture of the city.

                  I know that some Democrats think that, while the Kelly Thomas hearing was tragic and mishandled, the Council majority didn’t actually do anything that justified kicking them out of office. My concern was simply that they be denied their majority because of their mishandling of the situation and the evident lack of supervision. (Recalling McKinley was a must. The rest was optional.)

                  But for me (and I’m guessing for Flory), how much to go beyond recalling McKinley had to be weighed against how much you guys could be entrusted to govern responsibly. For me, it deterred me from wanting to recall all three if FFFFsters would replace them; maybe Flory felt that even more strongly.

                  You have no qualms about how you’ll govern, so you had no reservations about yelling as loudly as you can. Flory, like me, has to worry both about the frying pan and the fire; you can focus entirely on the frying pan, because you see nothing at all wrong with the fire. That’s why many people who would otherwise have been sympathetic steered clear of the formal recall effort.

        2. Reasonable people can support Hughes, and reasonable people can be suspicious of Hughes. Supporting Hughes doesn’t make a person in on a conspiracy, and being suspicious of Hughes is certainly understandable as well.

          1. Since this seems to be in reply to my comment I feel the need to point out I said in on the corruption, not in on the conspiracy. There are enough clear facts (some of which I stated above) that show Hughes is incapable of leading the Fullerton Police in a way that is in the best interest of the people that I haven’t even needed to bring in the idea of conspiracies, obvious and otherwise.

            Hughes has shown himself to be in on the corruption we should all be working to remove from Fullerton’s leadership. Therefore, in my opinion, to support Hughes is to support and encourage corruption.

            I can respect your opinion if you feel otherwise, I just fear what that means for my city if too many residents feel the same way, and Hughes is promoted for being dishonest.

          2. Very well said Nista. That would lead to much better dialogue too. Problem here is if you express a differing opinion you are lambasted to death and called all kinds of names. That’s the style that lead into council meetings as well. People lose respect for everyone when that happens.

  19. Greg Diamond :
    I think that you meant to say “Ramos and Wolfe … when Kelly stood up.”

    Yes, I meant Wolfe. Pressed for time, unable to edit after posting. Please forgive a couple other typos in my posts as well.

    A couple of people posted about Bill Hunt, so while I’m feeling so talkative, I’ll chime in about that as well.

    First off, let me say that illegal immigration is a problem in this country and something should be done about it on a federal level.

    Regardless of how one feels about illegal immigration, I feel quite strongly about providing equal service to all regardless of immigration status. Arpaio’s methods have created an entire class of ready-made victims for criminals. Victims are afraid to report crimes committed against them, and witnesses are afraid to come forward and cooperate with prosecutions. This encourages criminals to prey upon illegal immigrants, and makes it less likely for suspects to be prosecuted and convicted. This encourages more criminal behavior overall. Hunt’s open admiration for Arpaio, and Hunt’s pandering to that particular segment of the politcal spectrum is rather disturbing. My badge says, “Police”, not “Border Patrol” or “ICE”.

    Hunt was the clear choice when it came down to Hunt or Corona. I voted for Hunt. Kinda like the situation with Kyger for a lot of people….the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But when faced with a better choice of candidates, Hunt doesn’t seem to me to be such a great idea.

  20. And can somebody please explain to Ms. Flory, that using term is not nice and what it’s slang meaning is. Sorry I giggle a little everytime she uses it. “Tea Baggers” or does she know something about Keiger and Whitaker that we don’t.

    1. “Teabaggers” was initially the self-chosen name of participants in the Tea Party movement. When you choose a name like that, you pretty much give up being able to complain about it when others use it.

  21. Cold Chillin’ Cop Balls 3 :

    The Fullertonista :
    It may be an honorable profession in theory but it has not been in practice in Fullerton. Someone earlier asked about all the other police abuse cases in Fullerton. If FPD was 99% good officers we wouldn’t have heard all the reports of brutality we heard. We’re not talking just one or two, but scores of cases of people being beaten, assaulted, falsely arrested, perjured against, falsely imprisoned, etc. Case after case after case. I welcome your trying to honestly address questions, so I invite you to go through the archives of this blog and look at the various cases described. Start with Veth Mam, Andrew Trevor Clarke, Eddie Quinonez, Chris Spicer Janku.

    I’m aware of the Veth Mam case and watched the video, but I’m not that familiar with the others.
    Much, if not all, of this can be traced back to poor supervision and a lack of training.
    You say “scores of cases”, yet named 4. Give me even one score, compare that against the number of calls or even arrests in a year, or whatever period all these incidents occurred. I don’t mean to be confrontational since we’re having a decent and respectful discussion here, but “scores”? C’mon.
    I’m not saying the number is insignificant, but experience tells me that FPD supervisors and FTOs didn’t place enough emphasis on the truth and “doing the right thing” (something I drill into my trainees) during training, and sergeants didn’t carefully read reports, or get properly briefed on the incidents before approving reports. To someone on the inside, it sounds like a training and supervision problem. To someone on the outside, it sounds like corruption.
    So many people cried/whined/alleged corruption because the officers were allowed to review the video before writing reports on Kelly Thomas. Well, cases like Veth Mam happen because video WASN’T reviewed by the arresting officer, and/or his sergeant, before the finalization of the report. This is precisely why a good officer will review the video when writing his report. I’ve arrested people in melees involving several people, just like the Mam incident, only to review video back at the station and discover that I was mistaken in what occurred. It happens in physical incidents involving numerous people. The difference is that my arrestees were released without charges, and my report reflected what I originally thought happened vs. what I later saw on the video.
    It’s important to train officers that this will happen occasionally, but that it’s critical that if you made a mistake to admit that you did so and explain why you made that mistake. It’s also important that the department not unduly punish somebody when they raise their hand and say loudly without hesitation, “I fucked up.” And, of course, it’s important to release the arrestee without charges the moment you realize that this occurred.

    Please explain how the video lines up with Hampton and Nguyen’s story told to the DA and a jury – that was obviously cooked up after the fact to explain the embarrassing fact of Mam’s incarceration.

    Hampton went ape shit on Mam – for no legal reason. Every other explanation is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

    1. Like I said, I’m aware of the case and watched the video….but I haven’t read reports or transcripts. And if the DA filed on it and prosecuted with testimony and/or reports that contradicted the video, shame on them as well. What was different regarding their testimony vs. video.

      And why does it seem like you’re attacking me?

      Video is always more reliable than recollection.

      1. What was different was that Veth Mam did nothing but film Hampton and Nguyen. Nguyen testified that Mam jumped on him and attacked him. The video showed that Mam was standing there filming the cops arresting someone else when Hampton suddenly swung at him, knocking his phone the ground. Someone else picked up the phone and filmed them tackling Mam to the ground, brutally, and arresting him. He was charged with resisting arrest, or assault on a peace officer or something. It was totally bogus. Apparently the judge was mad the case even went to trial.

        Mam’s original lawyer said it was totally outrageous that the DA prosecuted him. Mam’s new lawyer Garo M. is representing him suing Fullerton.

        Joe is attacking you because you are, and this is stunning right here – the FIRST person to come on this blog and identify yourself clearly as a police officer and speak about any of these incidents.

        The FIRST.

        After 14 months. And the anonymous cop cowards who just type insults about us and how Kelly deserved it etc. don’t count, since they were obviously too embarrassed to out themselves as cops.

      2. If you watch the video here, you will notice an individual with black pants, open black jacket with a white T-shirt (hereafter referred to as Wrong Guy) trying to help his buddy Leng who is resisting arrest. For whatever reason, Wrong Guy is pushed back and slips away into the night.

        At time 0:47 of the video, officer Hampton arrives on scene. 15 seconds later, he approaches the bystanders and sees blue-shirted Veth Mam video recording. In seemingly one continuous motion, he slaps the phone into his face, grabs him by the arm and collar, tosses him around like a sack of potatoes for awhile, drives him into the pavement, flips him over, puts a knee between his shoulder blades and cuffs him. You can see him a little later calmly stepping over the prostrate Mam as the dust settles.

        Now, they had a couple vexations afterwards:
        !. Wish we’d have gotten that guy in the black jacket that was trying to pull us off Leng.
        2. What are we going to do with the guy Hampton slammed into the pavement? That could be trouble.

        Here is what happened: Hampton filed a police report, but made no mention of arresting Mam at all. His involvement was never mentioned by any of the other officers as well even though Mam was charged with resisting arrest. Officer Nguyen filed a report identifying Veth Mam as jumping on an officer’s back and choking him. Now, you could say that Nguyen made a terrible mistake, but he stuck with the story even after seeing the video and after using the video to prosecute Leng. You could say it was still just a terrible mistake except there is another problem. Nguyen isn’t the only officer that “independently” and unequivocally swore in his report that Veth Mam was guilty of trying to strangle a police officer. The officer struggling with Leng made the same charge in his report.

        Last year, Mardirossian released the police reports and made blow-ups. Don’t recall if this site posted them, but you can see an excerpt in the following video pausing at time 1:35:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-84pg1GEDI

        Did they get together and compare notes while writing their reports or did lightning strike twice in a way that would have been a detriment to Mam for the rest of his life had his friend not picked up the cell phone? We’ll see, but even Gennaco was highly critical of the way Hampton and the others handled their reports in the Kelly Thomas case..

        1. That sums it up well. They had to explain how and why Hampton’s victim ended up in the Fullerton jail.

          Mam’s gonna get more than Ron Thomas.

        2. Well done. Seems like a legitimate complaint. Of course, you can’t tell from a video what someone could have done prior to that video, but I know of no reason to think that Mam did anything to provoke the reaction you describe. Cops hate being videoed — but they have to learn to accept it.

    2. Folks, I know that a political correctness does not allow you to look at a real cause but if you want to know the truth and be able to correct it you must!

      Look at the code of silence and its specific subculture mainly among the young officers. You may be surprised to find out that you may have one, two or three competing gangs within the FPD backed by the FPD union because any action taken against these gangs would open the real Pandora Box.

      1. That’s why I said for the last 14 months I’m shocked someone didn’t come out talking from inside FPD. At the least someone disgruntled and pissed off making up half the stuff. I’m still shocked to this day. Easy money for them too. Shocking. Even more shocking is that due to this I’m convinced no one has any good dirt or anything to add to the so called blue line of silence and culture of corruption. Shocking!! 🙁

    3. Here’s another case for you CCCB:
      http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/the-joyride-from-hell-another-victim-of-fullerton-police-violence-comes-forward/

      You won’t like the fact that I call these officers thugs or goons but I’d still like a professional’s viewpoint on this. And while this may be an “isolated incident”, there are more of them, enough that it starts to form a pattern.

      As for “scores” – nobody knows the number of people the FPD assaulted or brutalized on their way to jail. Not every person who is pummeled by cops files a complaint, and because of POBOR and related laws we can’t get any data on the number of complaints filed.

      The fact is, I talked to several other people who were severely beaten by FPD goons, or “officers” if you prefer and they were too scared to file complaints or go public. Their stories were horrific.

      Why should we believe any of this? Because 1. it is corroborated by there being multiple accounts, 2. the victims were not seeking money and had nothing to gain by inventing these stories, 3. they had physical evidence (photos etc.), and 4. nobody, including me, has a damn thing to gain by going after the police. Unless the police are running around town acting like thugs. In which case the stories are probably all true and it is in ALL of our best interest to publicize them.

      But for a few people, publicizing these cases is NOT in their best interest:
      1. Police officers of the FPD
      2. Police union members and officials
      3. City council people who presided over this mess
      4. Current or prospective politicians who take money from cop unions.

      Starting to get the picture? Its us against them. Us being residents of Fullerton, and them being 1-4 above.

      And I’m not going off on you. I’m glad you’re on here representing – its about time.

      1. Here’s another. Read the entire complaint.
        http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2012/oh-damn-another-fpd-brutality-lawsuit-in-federal-court/

        Its never been just about Ramos, Cicinelli and Wolfe. Its about all of the officers named in this lawsuit, and the other lawsuits, and the ones where lawsuits were never filed but should have been.

        Culture of corruption? Culture of police brutality, that is unmistakeable. I’m sure Hughes has told the goon squad to lay off, but I don’t see why police grudgingly halting their reign of terror against the public should warm the cockles of my heart.

      2. Walk around LA or any gang area and you will hear all kinds of stories about police abuse. Write a book. No offense but the second you start believing everything you hear you will go downhill in credibility quickly.

  22. FFFF should like this one!! See, even after looking into things the best firms shine through!! 🙂

    Upland negotiating contract with Fullerton-based law firm

    Sandra Emerson, Staff Writer
    Created: 09/02/2012 11:26:56 AM PDT

    UPLAND – City officials are in negotiations with a new law firm to take over city attorney services following years of bank-breaking legal costs.
    Council members interviewed six law firms that responded to their request for proposal and narrowed them down to three, before selecting Fullerton-based Jones & Mayer.

    “I feel very good excited about this change,” Mayor Ray Musser said.

    “I’ve been pushing for it for years. Competition creates lower costs and better service, and that’s what I’m hoping we’ll have.”

    The change is expected to be voted upon Sept. 10.

    The firm, if selected, would provide basic city attorney services such as reading through agreements and attending council meetings.

    If the city was faced with litigation, then the city attorney would assist in retaining outside counsel.

    A legal sub-committee created legal billing guidelines for Richard Watson & Gershon, which will be used with the new attorney, City Manager Stephen Dunn said.

    “It’s a pretty standard contract we’re adding in measures that we didn’t have with Richards Watson & Gershon, such as billing guidelines,” he said.

    The guidelines include completing a case analysis, strategy and budget consisting of hours and costs before any work proceeds, limiting hourly amount bill without prior approval of the City Council and providing a written report to the council every 90 days on the status of the case including

    Advertisement

    additional estimated costs.
    Councilman Gino Filippi, who is a member of the legal sub-committee, said all the firms interviewed by the council were competent in municipal law.

    “The selected firm of Jones and Mayer is familiar with Upland,” he said. “They’ve successfully represented Upland in the past and are respected for their experience, responsiveness and ability to effectively operate within budget, which is vital in this economic crisis Upland finds itself.”

    The city went out to bid for city attorney services in April after years of steep legal fees and questions surrounding the billing practices of their law firm, Los Angeles-based Richards Watson & Gershon.

    The city paid that law firm about $7.9 million since June 2003.

    The law firm has been the city’s legal counsel since 1993 and William Curley served as the city attorney since 2003.

    Richards Watson & Gershon has agreed to continue representing the city, free of charge, in the case against Upland medical marijuana cooperative G3 Holistic, which is set to be heard by the State Supreme Court. The city has paid nearly half a million dollars fighting medical marijuana cooperatives in the city.

    The firm will also continue representing the city against the San Bernardino County Flood Control District, which has cost the city $5 million in legal fees.

    Jimmy Gutierrez, of Chino-based law firm Gutierrez, Fierro & Erickson, served as interim city attorney for the city. Gutierrez’s firm was in the top 3 of the firms considered.

    “Jimmy is extremely helpful,” Dunn said. “He provided us excellent service and he’s still working on stuff. He’s not just simply going to fall off the face of the earth. We’re still giving him assignments until this other contract works out.”

  23. Fullerton Lover :No man or woman is God. I’m pretty clear on that.
    Perhaps I should clarify that only Fullerton police officer that was consistently front and center during the protests last summer, was Captain Daniel Hughes.
    He was consistently working WITH the protesters to ensure that no one got hurt on either side during the protests.
    If you think that was easy task, I suggest you review what happened to some of the policeman and the protesters in front of the Anaheim PD a couple of months ago.

    A lot of that credit is due to the people of Fullerton, the protest organizers, and Tony himself. Fullerton was prepared to assimilate and control the anarchists, the Anaheim people were left bemuzed.

    I lived 17 years in Fullerton and then 25 years in Anaheim. As a whole, people in Fullerton are more educated, intelligent, eccentric, interested, involved, and in control.

    1. Steve Brow wrote…

      “I lived 17 years in Fullerton and then 25 years in Anaheim. As a whole, people in Fullerton are more educated, intelligent, eccentric, interested, involved, and in control”.

      Explain to me then how Fullerton allowed the likes of Don Bankhead and F. Dick Jones, Jan Flory, and Leland Wilson to be our Mayor if we’re so “educated,intelligent,eccentric,involved, and in control?

      I’ll tell why I think it happened and that’s because people in Fullerton are dangerously disengaged from the political process.

      This allows them to be easily targeted by the glossy brochures that arrive in the mail a couple of weeks before the election by candidates with pockets deep enough to do so.

      1. As my focus has shifted away from Fullerton, it is sometimes easier for me to see the past trends that got Fullerton where it is than the recent decissions. Fullerton is a part of California and the United States, dealing with common changes through its own personality. I think that Fullerton has been on cruise control while conditions were changing, thus the age of the council people.

        My father’s generation was the first with the belief that the US could be on top of the world. My generation was the first to believe that we owned it by birthright. So sex, drugs, and rock ‘n roll! We aborted half of the people who would have taken care of us our old age, are importing an underclass of low-educated workers, and thinking that somehow, someway our Americanism will keep us on top of a world repairing itself from WWII and the Cold War and working hard to compete.

        At the same time we are allowing our government to do more and more in our private lives. We have allowed government employees to get the pay and benefits that the top executives and union employees got in the 1970’s, but do not get any longer. We are looking for the next bubble, market fraud, stimulus, or ponzi scheme to continue the illusion. We have forgotten that real wealth is built on discipline and hard work.

        Fullerton has its own peculiar place in this. Guided by professional city staff, it set out to make old downtown Fullerton modern without demolition and modern buildings look old (kind of). They figured that when done the lifestyle of 1930’s Providence would resume and didn’t mind that the great grandchildren would have to pay off the bonds in the 2030’s.

        The answer to your question: untill 2011, the City was dominated by a desire to continue past dreams and not face current realities.

          1. Mr. Brow is a wise man. He understands history, societal trends and the nature of man. He understands that as a civilization that we are on our last leg. He understands that Fullerton is a mere microcosm of America. You get a ‘Standing O’ from me, Mr. Brow. You are in the top 1% of our nation’s intelligensia.

            The baby boomers are, by far, the most spoiled generation in the history of our country. It is really the first generation that is willing to destroy the generations that follow it to propogate its own selfish gains. As a nation and as a species of animal that occupies the planet – that is despicable. Even wild animal treat their young better than that.

            Low voter turnout = Apathy. Just like what the Soviet Union experienced. A lack of faith in the political process. One of the telltale signs of a dying society.

            If I have one wish before I perish it’s that the baby boomers suffer for the sins that WE committed over the last 40 years and not just force the younger people to pay for our sins.

            Yes, I am a baby boomer. And I’m not at all proud about it.

            1. “If I have one wish before I perish it’s that the baby boomers suffer for the sins that WE committed over the last 40 years and not just force the younger people to pay for our sins”

              Care to discuss how baby boomers are paying 7.5% of their wages for a Social Security system designed similar to a Ponzi scheme?

              1. Social Security is still cutting checks, aren’t they?

                The baby boomers running the government will steal more from the young to make sure that the baby boomers continue to collect social security.

                Poetic justice would be for the baby boomers to lose it all. We are the ones who caused 75% of the damage.

                The kids should not pay for our sins.

                1. The ratio used to be 20 workers for every payee of SS. We’re now down to 3 workers for every payee; when we hit 2 to 1 in 2030 the program is no longer sustainable.

                  And keep in mind that your paying into Social Security is mandatory… as long as your not a civil service employeen which is exempt.

                  Fact: several thousand employees of Galveston County, Texas were allowed to opt out of the Social Security program in the early 1980s, and have their money placed in a private retirement plan instead.
                  While employees who earned $50,000 per year would have collected $1,302 per month in Social Security benefits, the private plan paid them $6,843 per month.
                  While employees who earned $20,000 per year would have collected $775 per month in Social Security benefits, the private plan paid them $2,740 per month.

                2. So what’s to stop them from stealing more from the young to keep SS afloat? How do you think SS has survived this long? The SS trust fund is depleted. It has no money. It’s been used for other purposes and SS is essentially bankrupted. The only thing keeping the checks good is the ability of the government to borrow which is a burden for the young. It is the young who must pay the bill. Not the baby boomers. And they can continue to tax and borrow until the whole economy blows up. My wish is for it to self-destruct on the baby boom watch – since it’s the baby boomers who caused most of it. That’s all I’m saying. That’s fair, right?

          2. My compliments were only to the effect that Fullerton can protest without a riot while Anaheim can not. I do not necessarily endorse Fullerton’s voting rate
            .
            And of course, as a whole; as a society, Fullertonians are known to murder mentally ill homeless people.

          3. My compliments were only intended to praise Fullerton for the ability to protest without a riot, while Anaheim can not. I made not endorsement of Fullerton’s voting participation rate.

            And of course, as a whole; as a society, Fullerton has been known to murder mentally ill homeless people.

  24. When will our newly elected city councilmen push for changing the local law and allow medical marijuana cooperatives. With all the cooperatives closing in LA county the people of Fullerton need somewhere to go to get MM. As I remember, Kiger and Whitaker supported MM in our city at least that’s what I remember when I voted and plan to vote in the future.

    It’s time to keep promises…..

    1. just follow any group of CSU Fullerton students. You can also go to Long Beach. Its not a long drive from Fullerton. Plenty of cannabis medically dispensed in LA County. Of course, you do not want to be under the influence when you drive back to Fullerton and get stopped by FPD and get a free pat down!

    2. That was the first thing I spoke to Council about after the change in the guard. It’s obvious — and Fullerton could do it right, as few if any other cities have done.

  25. The baby boomers-the first of which turned 65 in 2011 were led down this destructive path by the previous generation. The Depression era survivors, Sonny and Al’s grandparents.

    1. Don’t even get me started about the “greatest generation”.

      The G.I. Bill entitled them to a college education and a home loan with absolutely no money of their own invested into either endeavor.

      Did they do the same for their own children?

      The “baby boomers?

      Absolutely not. Closed the door behind them too.

      Absolutely not.

      1. No, they did not close the door behind them. I bought my first home with an FHA loan with 3% down in 1985. In 2006, illegal aliens were buying homes on fradulent loan documents drafted by licensed brokers with no possibility of ever paying the loans back. This is what lead to the collapse. The problem is not that the GI bill existed, but that it was seen as a good idea and expanded beyond reason.

        FL, you are right about the previous generation to my baby boomer generation, but the WWI generation, beginning with Teddy Roosevelt also needs to be understood. Isolationism, which was possible when crossing an ocean was the largest challenge known to man, desolved into history with Hitler and Pearl Harbor. Our parents thought they had concoured the world in 1945 with our sacrifce of 500,000; 20,000,000 dead worldwide.

        They wanted to relax and let their children grow up in riches and without war. Then there was that Korea thing, and that Vietnam thing, and then repeated small wars, and the unending war on terrorism. Got in the way of the party.

        One of my favorite movies is Forest Gump, about an idiot who happened to get himself into all of the major issues from the mid 1950’s to the mid 1980’s without understanding what was going on.

        I would like to do a true story on the life of Uncle Ralph Kennedy, a man with a 140 IQ who came to Fullerton in 1953 and had influence (with only partial understanding) until his death in 1999 and beyond.

        It would explain a lot.

        1. Steve,
          What I think what I like best about the main character in the movie “Forrest Gump”. is that it illustrates perfectly that sincerity makes the very least person to be of more value than the most talented hypocrite.

          1. Another attribute about Forest was that without a confusing intellect, he often understood the real things better than those trying to make sense of things that did not really make sense. He repeatedly stood up for other people. He only stood up for himself once.

            “I’m not a smart man, but I know what love is, Jenny”.

  26. Wow that Rincon looks like a deviant. I mean it. Just look at that picture! How he could be allowed to stay on the force for TWO YEARS after having a dozen women file reports and two actually sue the city and his bosses at FPD kept him on. Yup, that includes our current acting chief Danny Hughes. Took Danny two years to fire a sexual pervert!
    Those on this blog that say hire the Chief from within are just kidding themselves. Not many organizations clean themselves up on their own without constant prodding.

    1. I agree. Hughes need to go. But Sebourn will likely be the swing vote to keep him, just like he was to reject the OCSD bid request.

      Beware of wolves in sheep clothing.

  27. I am preempting this thread

    An atheist and communist Vern Nelson aka Gröfaz decided to to play with unknown spiritual forces as promulgated at his OJ blog:

    Exorcism of Vern Nelson, Sunday 9/9 at 9 p.m. (OJB’s 10,000th Story!) See http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2012/09/exorcism-of-vern-nelson-sunday-99-at-9-p-m-ojbs-10000th-story/

    I am trying to reach him via the comment tools on his blog but, I believe that Golem is screening any messages to Gröfaz so my caveat may not reach Gröfaz before his ill administered stunt.

    Therefore I am using “F”FFF as public service announcement as an emergency……. Thanks for your cooperation folks!


    To Gröfaz!

    I hope that you are not screening his messages too, Golem.

    Caveat: I am strongly advising you Gröfaz to have any of properly trained shaman, or Catholic priest present during your otherwise show or shtick.

    It is not advisable to joke about opening portals by which you may invite bad spirits into your life.

    You may regret your atheistic believes year and day later. This is not joking matter.

    But go ahead make my day.

    Good luck!

    1. I should add that there is a commentator at the above link asking the FAQ: “Will we ever see a repeat of the legendary duet with Stanley Fiala?”

      About year ago, I agree to help otherwise broke Gröfaz to sing with him to race money for his food since Obama did not delivered on his promises.

      Gröfaz raised tons of money on my talent!

      As you can see I do support needy liberals.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fO8RtgIzrk

  28. The Fullertonista :
    I agree. Diamond, if you are actually well-intentioned towards Fullerton than find out why Flory remained silent for a year after Kelly Thomas, except to chastise people speaking out at public comments for being “rude” to Bankhead, McKinley and Jones.

    +1

    I like how GD stops replying to a post once he gets backed into a corner.

    A sign of true integrity, just like his hero Flory!

      1. You missed BOTH mine and the original post, on a slow day, with the way you babysit this blog… doubtful. I think it took the full amount of time to come up with your I heart Flory standpoint on this one.

        I could be wrong. I’d have not replied at all if you hadn’t busted out the 3rd grade insults to get my attention.

        1. Wow, I guess I must not babysit this blog after all, then!

          Candidates are somewhat limited in their ability to insult people using their entire adult vocabulary. I don’t regret much about running for office, but I do regret that.

      1. Yes, it was cancelled; Fullerton’s City Council meeting “schedule” is the first and third Tuesday of each month; sometimes one of those is cancelled, as occurred for the previously “scheduled” meeting of September 4, 2012. Meetings are often cancelled due to a lack of quorum or because they fall close to a major holiday.

        For all your posturing, you haven’t learned the workings of cities other than as they may apply to your alleged line of work…

  29. Keep trying to fight it! You know your controlled council seats are numbered. Just face it T-Boner for the blonde.

  30. Keep trying to fight it! You know your controlled council seats are numbered. Just face it T-B0ner for the bleached wannaB.

  31. Greg Diamond :
    For the year after the Kelly Thomas killing, Flory was not much of a public figure. (I don’t think that she had had any intention of running this year, except that there was a need and she was enough of a fighter to do it — something I’d think you’d admire.) I’ve never spoken to her about the rewriting of the reports; I wouldn’t talk about them myself simply because as I understand it Hughes already conceded the point. What’s the point (other than didactic) of belaboring it? Make him concede it again?
    I think that Flory, like many people across the political spectrum, thought that the constant haranguing of the previous majority was not just unseemly, but made good governance much more difficult. It was both rude (as intended) and disproportionate (because while the case was sitting with the DA there really were limits on what they could do. I could never tell whether you guys really didn’t understand that or if you were just pretending not to.)
    The agitation was good politics for you guys, to the extent that it primed people for the recall, but that it was political raised the question of whether it was worthwhile for it to lead to an ideological capture of the city.
    I know that some Democrats think that, while the Kelly Thomas hearing was tragic and mishandled, the Council majority didn’t actually do anything that justified kicking them out of office. My concern was simply that they be denied their majority because of their mishandling of the situation and the evident lack of supervision. (Recalling McKinley was a must. The rest was optional.)
    But for me (and I’m guessing for Flory), how much to go beyond recalling McKinley had to be weighed against how much you guys could be entrusted to govern responsibly. For me, it deterred me from wanting to recall all three if FFFFsters would replace them; maybe Flory felt that even more strongly.
    You have no qualms about how you’ll govern, so you had no reservations about yelling as loudly as you can. Flory, like me, has to worry both about the frying pan and the fire; you can focus entirely on the frying pan, because you see nothing at all wrong with the fire. That’s why many people who would otherwise have been sympathetic steered clear of the formal recall effort.

    While I love the fact that you assume that everything is a massively engineered conspiracy headed no doubt by Tony and probably Travis, I hate to break it to you. Those angry people speaking out at city council? They aren’t paid, told to come, or given free burgers. They are just angry citizens who showed up. Jan Flory just wanted them to shut up because she doesn’t like challenges to authority. You know the type. You may be the type.

    Flory never spoke out except to support the council, because like many she doesn’t really care if the cops kill a homeless guy and falsely arrest some other guys and beat on some other guys. As long as it doesn’t interrupt business as usual.

    1. “Massively engineered conspiracy”? No — no more than any action in which people that want a particular political result inflame a mob. Most of the people talking to Council thought that they were doing something useful — and especially early on they generally were.

      I think that you’re totally off-base regarding Flory’s motives in your last paragraph. What evidence could change your mind? Any?

      1. She made no public comments about police brutality or the Kelly Thomas killing, but she commented that people shouldn’t be rude to the mayor and that what was happening was “so sad.” The rudeness, that is. Not the killing. What could she say now that would erase that memory?

        I personally talked to one Fullerton resident before the recall election who said in reference to the police issues “oh, I don’t care about that.” I’m guessing Flory is in that boat. If Flory came up with a plan to reform FPD and ensure that Fullerton becomes a police violence-free city, that would change my mind. If she came to city council and said she disagreed with FFFF and Kiger and Whitaker but respected their efforts to really try to do something about police brutality, that might change my mind. But she’s not going to so what’s the point.

        1. Fullertonista,

          I can tell you from having spoken with literally thousands of Fullerton residents about past issues of police misconduct within the FPD, that 95% of Fullerton residents were clueless about them because the issues were always settled before they ever reached the courts, so there’s is never any public record of police misconduct, thus no coverage from any media outlets who risk alienating their gravy train of inside information sources.

          Sorry to say this, however I think there are still many ostriches amongst us here in Fullerton, who still choose to ignore, or pretend, that these issues involving police misconduct only happen to “other people”, not good upstanding men or women like us.

        2. Are you sure that Flory made no public comment expressing her sadness at the killing? Or do you just know what she did or did not say at Council meetings? Do you think that that is all that ought to count?

          My sense of her is that her position was probably pretty much the same as Sharon Quirk-Silva’s, which was that it was a tragedy that the Council’s leadership should have handled better, and the question of police use of excessive force had to be thoroughly and fairly investigated — but that individual wrongdoing should not be prejudged.

          I think that your complaint with Flory may not be so much a failure to publicly express sympathy to Kelly’s family — and really, whether one makes a public pronouncement of one’s sympathy ought to be one’s own choice, especially as a politician’s doing so may be taken as a calculated attempt to ingratiate themselves to the public — but that she refused to go along with prejudging the case.

          I’m sorry, if so, but that’s the perspective that we lawyers have — partly as a result of seeing LOTS of prejudgment in both directions. We want to see the legal and judicial process work fairly and to its completion.

          That does not mean that we want, or are willing to see, an investigation sweep the truth under the rug. It means that we want to see sufficient time provided for the facts to be established. It means that we want to see people charged with, and charged only with, the appropriate crimes.

          Many people associated with FFFF, who were righteously and understandably angry, didn’t want to be as fastidious about justice (as opposed to mere vengeance) being done. While the central thrust of your complaints against the police has been legitimate, in many cases you just aren’t aware of, or don’t care about, what proof of what actions and intent is required for someone to be found guilty.

          You rightly understood the danger of a cover-up and you fought valiantly to prevent one — but you did not shown that you appreciate that doing the job right also takes time. You didn’t know or (if you did) didn’t care that some courtesies (like apologies for police actions by government officials) are legally significant statements that even if morally right and personally advantageous may be irresponsible to make before all of the facts are in.

          Jones & company did far too little in the wake of the killing and did it far too late, but some of the frontier justice you demanded in the wake of those errors was far too much.

          I can’t speak for Flory — we’ve never discussed it, although I think that her endorsement of Jaramillo coupled with her non-endorsement of Bankhead speaks for itself — but if her objection to FFFF’s actions before Council was that you were pushing not merely for expressions of sympathy and regret but for expressions of apology and culpability, then I think her not standing with you made perfect sense.

          While she would want to see justice done, she would not want to see mob justice done — and she would not expect a representative of a city that would be going into litigation over an issue, with taxpayer money at risk rather than just her own, make admissions to salve one’s own guilt (or make oneself look good) rather than sit painfully still and wait for the process to play out.

          For those who would just as soon see the city government bankrupt (because it played into their hopes of breaking employee unions), there would be no reason why a Council person should not stand up and say “yeah, we did it, we were totally wrong, and we should be punished as much as possible.” That may have appealed to you, but it would be an irresponsible action by a representative of a city government even if they suspected that it was true.

          I suspect that you’ll reject that last sentence — but that’s what it means to hold a public trust. You do your best to make sure that problems don’t occur, and to investigate their causes and provide consequences to those who did wrong, but you don’t sell out the city you represent before all of the relevant facts are in. You testify honestly if called, but you don’t make a grand show of demanding punishment for your city to score political points.

          At the time, before the video came out, I could not fathom why they wouldn’t show it to Bruce Whitaker when he asked. Now, I suspect that I know one possible reason — maybe they didn’t think that he’d play by the rules of a prudent city representative. That doesn’t mean that one should cover things up, not at all. It means that one shouldn’t rush to admit the city’s guilt with only a partial understanding of the relevant facts.

          I think that your asking her what she’d want to do to make Fullerton a police-violence-free city is perfectly fair game. Good question for everyone, in fact! But to complaint that she wasn’t willing to stand with those jeering the Council because it would not move faster than the investigation allowed — despite that the majority was certainly vulnerable to criticism on other grounds — is just unfair. Not jeering the Council does not equal accepting police brutality!

          1. I haven’t convinced myself to read your entire page of Flory propaganda here yet, but I must say, if she had enough passion and desire to stand at a city council meeting and admonish the public for daring to speak up for what’s right to her beloved city council members, but never thought to stand and question their actions during what was easily their darkest hour, I think it’s pretty clear where she stands on rights and respect for the citizens of public vs. her idea of Fullerton’s elite.

            That’s why that one issue alone is enough to show me I should fear her ever making it back on the council. We worked so hard to get rid of McKinley, Bankhead and Jones and now we are going to elect their biggest groupie? No thanks to that giant step backward.

            JUST SAY NO TO FLORY AND BANKHEAD!

            1. Don’t bother. I can have some good discussions here with ‘nista, FLover, Jane, peaches, and some others. You’ve yet to prove yourself capable.

              OK — actually I guess you really ought to read the part about how she has endorsed Jaramillo but not Bankhead.

              1. You’re coming off a bit self obsessed here, Greg. Kinda like the woman you’re campaigning for.

                I didn’t post here for your approval or to entice you into a debate/3rd grade like argument. I posted because I believe the way you are presenting Flory is ridiculous and I want to make it clear what she has done to show herself incapable of looking out for the best interests of the people of Fullerton.

                1. “You’re coming off a bit self obsessed here, Greg. Kinda like the woman you’re campaigning for.”

                  ding ding ding!

                2. I see, annoyface — you think that my saying that I can have decent discussions with some people here is “self-obsessed.” Wow.

                  You have your opinion that you refuse to attribute to yourself; i have mine that I’ll stand behind. Or is my using my real name to express my opinions just more evidence of “self-obsession”?

                1. I asked her about that point blank. She said that he has not endorsed him in this cycle. He doesn’t seem to be being particularly scrupulous about updating his list.

          2. You missed the point. Actually several points. There were repeated cases of police brutality being reported and that is enough reason to do something dramatic, in this case, call in the DOJ. The council didn’t do anything. Gin didn’t call for anybody to do anything. She just bitched at people for being angry at the ex-cops partially responsible for the brutality rampant in the department. Don’t try to make it complicated and legalistic. That’s just obfuscation.

            1. “She just bitched at people for being angry at the ex-cops partially responsible for the brutality rampant in the department.”

              And … let’s go to the videotape!

              Did she ever express an opinion against investigations? Or was she just opposed to prejudgment and frontier justice?

              1. What investigation? It was this blog that did the majority of the investigatory work, along with Garo Mardirossian. Spin as you want the facts remain, Flory only showed up to chastize the crowd for being angry at Jones, Banky, and McKinley. Her sense of outrage wasn’t over police brutality victims, it was at her old nemesis Tony representing his community and fighting for meaningful change.

                1. One can distinguish between the investigations (which were good) and the tone and tenor of the blog and those yelling at the Council (less so.) You apparently have no idea what she thought about the need to investigate the Kelly Thomas killing.

  32. Greg, you said:

    “I think that Flory, like many people across the political spectrum, thought that the constant haranguing of the previous majority was not just unseemly, but made good governance much more difficult. It was both rude (as intended) and disproportionate (because while the case was sitting with the DA there really were limits on what they could do. I could never tell whether you guys really didn’t understand that or if you were just pretending not to.)”

    If the previous council and police chief had just said and done something in the very beginning of the aftermath of Kelly’s killing, there would have been no need for the “rude” and “disproportionate” (your words) reaction from the community. They just sat there like mannequins.

    That was what was rude, Greg.

  33. So greg, who do you work for?
    Who signs your check?
    What clubs you belong to?
    Who paid you to ruin Occupy OC?
    Why have you cock blocked all Occupiers at the protest in Fullerotn, they have told me…YOU are the one,who stops all occupiers from coming to fullerton, I have heard from 2 seperate witness’ that claim YOU are the one stopping them from attending…again I hope this is not true…

  34. Greg Diamond :One can distinguish between the investigations (which were good) and the tone and tenor of the blog and those yelling at the Council (less so.) You apparently have no idea what she thought about the need to investigate the Kelly Thomas killing.

    Greg…why do you care? NO ONE wants your opinion…BLOCK THIS DICK.

  35. Greg Diamond :“She just bitched at people for being angry at the ex-cops partially responsible for the brutality rampant in the department.”
    And … let’s go to the videotape!
    Did she ever express an opinion against investigations? Or was she just opposed to prejudgment and frontier justice?

    Please go away greg….JUST go away…no one likes you…and we are sick of seeing your posts….please go and clip your toenails..now!

  36. Greg Diamond :Actually, I agree with you about that.
    Both, however, can have been rude.

    Here is rude……go the fuck away…kinda quickly pudgy….leave already…take stan with you.

  37. Greg Diamond :Are you sure that Flory made no public comment expressing her sadness at the killing? Or do you just know what she did or did not say at Council meetings? Do you think that that is all that ought to count?
    My sense of her is that her position was probably pretty much the same as Sharon Quirk-Silva’s, which was that it was a tragedy that the Council’s leadership should have handled better, and the question of police use of excessive force had to be thoroughly and fairly investigated — but that individual wrongdoing should not be prejudged.
    I think that your complaint with Flory may not be so much a failure to publicly express sympathy to Kelly’s family — and really, whether one makes a public pronouncement of one’s sympathy ought to be one’s own choice, especially as a politician’s doing so may be taken as a calculated attempt to ingratiate themselves to the public — but that she refused to go along with prejudging the case.
    I’m sorry, if so, but that’s the perspective that we lawyers have — partly as a result of seeing LOTS of prejudgment in both directions. We want to see the legal and judicial process work fairly and to its completion.
    That does not mean that we want, or are willing to see, an investigation sweep the truth under the rug. It means that we want to see sufficient time provided for the facts to be established. It means that we want to see people charged with, and charged only with, the appropriate crimes.
    Many people associated with FFFF, who were righteously and understandably angry, didn’t want to be as fastidious about justice (as opposed to mere vengeance) being done. While the central thrust of your complaints against the police has been legitimate, in many cases you just aren’t aware of, or don’t care about, what proof of what actions and intent is required for someone to be found guilty.
    You rightly understood the danger of a cover-up and you fought valiantly to prevent one — but you did not shown that you appreciate that doing the job right also takes time. You didn’t know or (if you did) didn’t care that some courtesies (like apologies for police actions by government officials) are legally significant statements that even if morally right and personally advantageous may be irresponsible to make before all of the facts are in.
    Jones & company did far too little in the wake of the killing and did it far too late, but some of the frontier justice you demanded in the wake of those errors was far too much.
    I can’t speak for Flory — we’ve never discussed it, although I think that her endorsement of Jaramillo coupled with her non-endorsement of Bankhead speaks for itself — but if her objection to FFFF’s actions before Council was that you were pushing not merely for expressions of sympathy and regret but for expressions of apology and culpability, then I think her not standing with you made perfect sense.
    While she would want to see justice done, she would not want to see mob justice done — and she would not expect a representative of a city that would be going into litigation over an issue, with taxpayer money at risk rather than just her own, make admissions to salve one’s own guilt (or make oneself look good) rather than sit painfully still and wait for the process to play out.
    For those who would just as soon see the city government bankrupt (because it played into their hopes of breaking employee unions), there would be no reason why a Council person should not stand up and say “yeah, we did it, we were totally wrong, and we should be punished as much as possible.” That may have appealed to you, but it would be an irresponsible action by a representative of a city government even if they suspected that it was true.
    I suspect that you’ll reject that last sentence — but that’s what it means to hold a public trust. You do your best to make sure that problems don’t occur, and to investigate their causes and provide consequences to those who did wrong, but you don’t sell out the city you represent before all of the relevant facts are in. You testify honestly if called, but you don’t make a grand show of demanding punishment for your city to score political points.
    At the time, before the video came out, I could not fathom why they wouldn’t show it to Bruce Whitaker when he asked. Now, I suspect that I know one possible reason — maybe they didn’t think that he’d play by the rules of a prudent city representative. That doesn’t mean that one should cover things up, not at all. It means that one shouldn’t rush to admit the city’s guilt with only a partial understanding of the relevant facts.
    I think that your asking her what she’d want to do to make Fullerton a police-violence-free city is perfectly fair game. Good question for everyone, in fact! But to complaint that she wasn’t willing to stand with those jeering the Council because it would not move faster than the investigation allowed — despite that the majority was certainly vulnerable to criticism on other grounds — is just unfair. Not jeering the Council does not equal accepting police brutality!

    thank god a tree didnt die for your thoughts….what a waste that would a been…blech

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