Do The Math!

There it goes…

The prospect of being replaced in a couple of years by the OC Sheriff’s Department has the cop union waking up in cold sweats. They have a website and everything, and have dredged up a repuglican fossil to pitch their woo to the citizenry via robocalls.

Their pretty pictures focus on historical images around Fullerton, ostensibly linking themselves to Fullerton’s century-plus history. However, one thing you will never hear from them is the cost to the Fullerton taxpayer, although they will no doubt be questioning any likely savings from bringing in the OCSD. But those saving could be huge – perhaps $10,000,000 or more. One of our commenters on another thread helped out with the rough numbers:

#64 by It’s Not Complicated on August 6, 2012

Fullerton PD costs each resident $264 dollars per year = $37,000,000.

OCSD costs each resident of Yorba Linda $183 dollars per year = $11,000,000.

Fullerton is 2.3 time bigger than YL. $11 mil times 2.3 = $25 mil. $37 mil – $25 mil = $12 Mil. Be conservative, say $10,000,000.

Good grief! Ten million bucks? I’d take even a small part of that, especially if it meant cleaning up a racketeering operation that has demonstrated zero remorse for its Culture of Corruption that has killed, beaten, robbed, perjured, falsely imprisoned, and sexually assaulted its citizenry.

We aren’t very nice, but we sure are expensive…

And then, of course, there’s the cost of cleaning up via legal settlement for all that FPD misbehavin.’ Added millions. You won’t be hearing about that from the FPOA, either.

So tell me again, what’s wrong with seeking a proposal from the OCSD?

 

"Dick" Ackerman A Step in the Right Direction Dead heads Repuglicanism The Culture of Corruption Union Goons Watch Your Wallet

217 thoughts on “Do The Math!

  1. Nothing’s wrong with it, BUT I think it’s a pipe dream to assume that they’re better than what we have now simply because we haven’t heard any tales of abuse.

      1. No we haven’t but I recall a commenter on here a few months back stating that he is now independently wealthy thanks to five sheriff deputies beating him to a bloody pulp.

        I don’t think we can say that about anyone who had been victimized by FPD.

        1. When do the 2 scumbags (Cicinelli and Ramos) go to trial? Nothing new on the websites and national news. How about the other FPD slime who were involved in the Kelly Thomas murder? For a while, it seemed like the whole country was watching; now this incident looks like it has been swept under the rug.

          1. Because of the civil lawsuit, Ron has to keep his mouth shut and not talk to media because now he’ll have to back up his lies.

          2. The more time goes by, the less money Ronnie gets. He wants 20million and he hasn’t seen his son in ten years. Good. Luck Ronnie! !

        1. Hence, why any contract with any new force, including that of FPD must have iron clad limits on liability – just as there are caps on med mal against physicians. Moroever, if cops are convicted of abuse of power, liability should also be placed on them personally as well their direct supervisors. See how that sails with the unions.

        2. Glad you beat me to it, Jt.

          Don’t worry, if the OCSD starts acting badly, Fullerton can just fire the Sheriff and install a new one. Hey, waitaminnit…!

          1. No, they can cancel the contract in a few years – just like the contract with the FPOA. Ignoramus. And it’s none of your business anyway.

            1. Yeah — and then in a few years start up a new police force again from scratch? That sounds really inexpensive and effective!

              My family drives on Fullerton streets most days. Of course the quality of the police is my business — as is sacrificing safety on the alter of wanting to shove away pension obligations. Hey, if OCSD said that Fullerton had to kick in for the sheriff’s pensions, would people here still favor it?

              1. This Diamond guy pays nothing towards Fullerton’s police services, so he doesn’t give a damn how much it costs the rest of us. All he cares about are the FPOA’s generous donations to the Sharon Quirk campaign.

                1. Of course I do. I pay office rent and do most of my shopping in Fullerton, along with various parking fees and such, “Kimchi Boogaloo.”

                  I’ve never talked to the FPOA about donations to the Quirk campaign (or my own.) I’ve made clear, I think, what I DO care about with respect to FPD: good and effective policing respectful of civil rights and liberties.

              2. You really are ignorant, aren’t you? OCSD pensions costs are passed through to the contract cities, as is a pro rated share of overhead. Almost everyone knows that.

                1. Then given that OCSD pension costs are higher, as discussed at today’s meeting, where is the supposed savings? Seriously, this seems incredible. How does the city save on pensions by paying higher pensions?

            2. Any contract can be terminated for breach. Terms of new safety dept should absolutely include causes for termination, specifcally citing any event by which officers, employees, agents of the dept found convicted of felonies etc… can lead to immediate termination of the contract, moreoever, terms should also include iron clad caps on exposure to the city and place the exposure on the police unions and the convicted officers personally.

          2. Right. That is an issue.

            The most important issue is not the money but that we have clean, professional, non-abusive cops on our streets and that if we don’t we have the power to immediately do something about that. I think our city council is well aware of this.

              1. Right. I’m just saying that if you weight the factors, the “cops not killing or brutalizing civilians for no reason” should weigh more heavily than the $.

            1. Exactly. I actually don’t have a firm position on the underlying issue, but I do have a position on how some people are (not) thinking it through.

              I think that this is about eliminating pension obligations, not about policing. If it were about policing, you’d seen advocates comparing the two in terms of … clean, professional, non-abusive policing.

              1. Hey, please tell us all about how this would “eliminate” a few hundred million in pension obligations.

              2. The pension costs of the OCSD get passed through to their contract cities.

                The savings comes through the elimination of an entire tier of management plus vast economies to scale.

                Fullerton’s obligations to CalPERS continue until all the beneficiaries are dead. Jeez you’re ignorant.

                1. Yeah, Yorba Linda seems to be enjoying their switch.

                  One thing going for the OCSD — slower response time to Fullerton means that they’re less likely to have to interact with criminals, who are likely to be already gone.

                  Last paragraph is weird. I never denied that. I was referring to future pension obligations, as are you in your second paragraph.

                  If the supposed problem is bloated management, why not negotiate an end to management bloat in the next contract?

                  Oh, I know — it won’t work unless Fullerton can threaten to go with the OCSD if the FPOA doesn’t go along, right? Too bad that the Sheriff’s Deputies rep said tonight that they’re not interested.

                  If it’s management bloat that’s the problem, then focus the discussion on management bloat, naming names as to what positions warrant elimination. Much easier than the nonsense.

    1. Better or worse? Probably not much different one way or the other. But the savings with OCSD could be enormous.

      Let’s ask O’Malley.

    2. There are always allegations and lots of them are true. Cops are pretty much the same everywhere.

      Here’s the REAL question. What is “local control,” what’s it worth, and do you think you actually have any now?

      The cities of south OC all contract with the OCSD. Do you think these towns bemoan their lack of control, or celebrate the comparatively cost versus having to pay for all the necessary cop infrastructure?

      1. Well said Rat.

        Cops arent all the same though. Very different. Policing is generally the same PD to PD though.

        Sheriffs depts normally low bid to get cities and then raise the rates about a million a year. Long term more than the original PD.

        1. Once again, I say it — if the contract(s) are written up correctly, they CAN’T raise the rates. If you write the contact for one year at a time, the city can either agree to new rates or terminate the contract and build a new FPD.

        2. That’s just a lie. Our contract costs in Mission Viejo have gone up 2% in the past three years.

          You are either a liar or really ignorant. Which is it?

          1. Ok in bad economy it went up $400,000? What’s the total contract? $20 million? How about the last 10 years? Look at other cities. Ask yourself why does it increase at all each year? You expect no increase each year in Fullerton? Come on.

            1. Our contract this year is $15,471,819.

              We love the OCSD. Great service, responsible, professional police who love working for us. We get the EXACT level of service our council requests from the Sheriff. If our “chief” doesn’t perform, Sheriff Hutchens will replace him/her with one who does.

              How’s that for local control?

    3. Don’ get your hopes too high on OCSD- to appease everyone they recycle the existing cops and you wind up with the same cops on the street in different colored uniforms.

      1. W.W., “recycle the existing cops”, yeah and save $10 Million ! ! !

        Sounds like a winner for Fullerton citizens and our crumbling streets, library, parks…

  2. A request for proposal (RFP) is the most valid option for taxpayers whenever you have a sole source supplier.

    Competition seems to bring out the best in everybody.

    1. You got that right — I hope they are having many sleepless nights now that things have changed, and many more things are going to change!

  3. I say we give it a try the animals we have now have to go. When RAMOSHIT is exonerated and back on the streets we will pay. Watch the DAs office drop the charges the fix is in. RAMOSHIT will sue for damages and then hit the streets to clean up the bullshit.
    RAMOSHIT WILL DO IT HIS WAY.

  4. nothing is wrong and all is right for the new, improved Fullerton city council to disband the bad boys AKA Fullerton PD .

    Cutting away the dollar signs from this story, it is bad enough Fullerton PD has systematically abused the civil rights of Fullerton’s community to justify getting rid of them.

    And the Fullerton PD may give thanks to their impending demise to the legacy of their past leader retired Fullerton Police Chief Pat McKinley. When McKinley wasn’t hiring the worst of LAPD and using Fullerton revenue to cover up their crimes in Fullerton, McKinley was accepting awards and money from his colleague, Rusty Kennedy, the executive director of the Orange County Human Relations Commission, for his outstanding community policing program.

  5. “Farming” it out is going to be same song and dance. Cops these days are to expensive, you must break the unions and start over as far as the pay package goes. You must have a public non cop have full access to every aspect of that department for accountability. Then must hire a non cop to lead / run the department. All the clowns city / county / state / feds play musicle chairs the bounce from city to to city collecting a pension at every stop.

    1. That’s the real question: how do you break the political power of a police force? Would it be easier to do if we had the sheriff?

      There appear to be no hiring rules at FPD and no punishment for wrongdoing. Probably most of them were good officers but were intimidated by the clique. How can we improve that?

    2. OCMARK said:

      Then must hire a non cop to lead / run the department. All the clowns city / county / state / feds play musicle chairs the bounce from city to to city collecting a pension at every stop.

      It’s always a great idea to hire a CEO who knows nothing of the industry he\she is running.
      Typical FFFF thought process.

      1. I couldn’t disagree with you more. Any parent can tell you that they learn more from a 5-year old in a minute, than they would from a 50-year old in a month.

        Why?

        Because a 5-year old is honest, and hasn’t learned to hate yet.

        The only thing a 5-year old hates is a nap.

  6. The basic, one-word answer is ‘nothing’. But, unfortunately, it’s a “single-source” procurement. The only option is outsourcing to the OC Sheriff, and she’s got her own reputation.

    At the most fundamental level, you’re trading one bureaucracy for another, and one run by an elected official that Fullerton can NOT fire if the shit hits the fan.

    Plenty of other cities don’t have dirty cops and dirty cop management, run their departments locally and, presumably, within an acceptable cost structure. You’ll lose that control, and be under the strong influence of the Sheriff’s union. Why trade one union for another?

    Only two cops have been fired as a result of the Thomas killing — it was too hard to do, but how much harder would that be if it was the Sheriff? Logically, the Sheriff would look to FPD to transfer and staff its Fullerton force and the City might not have much to say about who they choose.

    The final question to ask is what happens if the Sheriff fails? Can you get your Department back? And who gets the assets (communications, IT, vehicles, equipment)?

    Think long and hard before doing this (and risking your gun rights under Hutchens). And I’d give Bill Hunt a call to see what he thinks.

    1. Fullerton has their own cars, equipment, etc. — no need for anyone to remove them. OCSD can utilize them as well if they are hired. All the assets belong to the city of fullerton.

      IF they are hired via contract, then the contract can be written so that the OCSD contract can be terminated at any time. Fullerton just starts the hiring process and begins anew. NO previous FPD cops to be hired!

      The city will ALWAYS have the choice on who works for the city — just write up the contracts that way.

      Since when does Hutchens or any cop have authority over the 2nd amendment? We’ll keep our guns, thank you.

  7. Hire Bill Hunt he’s Tonys personal private investigator. Next hire Pedro Garcia for city mantence manager he does a great
    Job on Tonys slums.

  8. Nothing wrong with looking at the OCSD to replace the department. However, I would hope that the city council looks at everything.

    And I am sorry, we would have to look at another city then Yorba Linda to compare Fullerton to that has little to no crime rate.

    Yorba Linda: high proverty values, not a whole lot of crime, spread out, no gangs, 2 high schools

    Fullerton: Downtown bar district, gangs, homeless (we have a shelter Yorba Linda doesn’t), 1 Jr. college, 4 universities, 5 high schools

    We require a lot more staffed then Yorba Linda would because of everything that we have in Fullerton, the good and bad. Therefore, we would need to hire more officers, not a overloaded number of officers, but more.

    I am not advocating for either side, FPD or OCSD.

    thoughts?

    1. Proverty- Is that a Freudian slip? Yes Fullerton will require higher patrol staffing- the real savings will be in Administration 9 Say “goodbye” to the 3 Captains (with benefits close to $800,000 per year), and probably all lieutenants. OCSD will run things with a Lieutenant/Chief of Police services while using economies of scale for other admin functions.
      Things will be streamlined to the nth degree- positions created to employ someones brother in law (FPD has no anti-nepotism policy) will be eliminated. In today’s world, regional policing is a no brainer. The local PD empires built on the backs of taxpayers is going to go the way of the horse and buggy. All the other PD’s in OC except maybe Anaheim and Santa Ana are holding their collective breath to see what happens with Fullerton.

  9. Fahrenheit 451 :
    The basic, one-word answer is ‘nothing’. But, unfortunately, it’s a “single-source” procurement. The only option is outsourcing to the OC Sheriff, and she’s got her own reputation.
    At the most fundamental level, you’re trading one bureaucracy for another, and one run by an elected official that Fullerton can NOT fire if the shit hits the fan.
    Plenty of other cities don’t have dirty cops and dirty cop management, run their departments locally and, presumably, within an acceptable cost structure. You’ll lose that control, and be under the strong influence of the Sheriff’s union. Why trade one union for another?
    Only two cops have been fired as a result of the Thomas killing — it was too hard to do, but how much harder would that be if it was the Sheriff? Logically, the Sheriff would look to FPD to transfer and staff its Fullerton force and the City might not have much to say about who they choose.
    The final question to ask is what happens if the Sheriff fails? Can you get your Department back? And who gets the assets (communications, IT, vehicles, equipment)?
    Think long and hard before doing this (and risking your gun rights under Hutchens). And I’d give Bill Hunt a call to see what he thinks.

    Great points about the disadvantage of a county Sheriff in town…
    How about bringing in some Police Chiefs from other successful, non-corrupt city police agencies like Fontana’s Chief Rod Jones or Los Angeles’ Chief Charlie Beck for some guidlines and advice in cleaning up Fullerton PD?
    Make sure they get rid of the cops with the most complaints and the ones who cost the city in lawsuits, then replace them with latino and female officers. Minimize the GOOD OL’ BOY WHITE MALE officers and watch the corruption diminish.

    1. I don’t think it should be about white/latino/male/female in regard to who is hired. The best person for the job should be hired. Period.

  10. I think it would also be prudent for the City Councilman to get genuine (not political) feedback from the residents of cities who have decided to disband their police departments to hear the positives and negatives of their experience.

    1. Pay thousands of dollars to learn what? That all the cities surveyed have roughly similar contracts with their employees. Recall these idiots, they don’t have a clue as to what they are doing.

    2. Give me $25,000 and I will tell you what dont want to hear. All police departments are runned just about the same. You are comparing Anaheim, Huntington Beach. You guys are morons. They cost alot more to operate than Fullerton.

  11. This is just a quote everybody. It seems that many commenting here do not fully grasp the magnitude of a potential $10 million annual savings. Such a savings, combined with the bringing to an end the expansion of the existing police pension obligations (which already extend out decades), virtually solves our current budgetary problems. Having said that, we do not know whether there will be a $10 million dollar savings, or a fifty cent savings until we receive a quote. I’m also assuming that the quote could include an assurance that Fullerton will be indemnified from any judgments that occur as a result of the performance of the Sherriff. Many potential advantages to contracting, along with a few disadvantages. I for one, would opt for a local force if the TOTAL costs and liability were the same, and would maybe pay a 5% premium to achieve it.

    At this stage, to vote against securing a quote would be the height of irresponsibility. What message does that send to the union? There is no price too great for a local police force? If that is so, why don’t we just post an officer at the end of every street?

    Get the quote. Ensure that we are comparing apples to apples, and/or evaluate the total value of services and then discuss the merits or ask for modifications to the quote.

    It’s also possible that the quote would lead us to considering modifications in how we manage our existing force to bring costs down.

    It is understandable that some citizens are afraid of switching to a larger, county-managed force. It is ok to consider paying some modest premium for a local force. However, that has to be a reasonable figure. Not 1/3rd.

  12. Lets put out the rfp to open bid and see what comes back. Its just like shopping for new cops. This time don’t give the cops Multitudes of years on the contract. How about year to year with citizens offering the contract extentions and offering better pay to any Nonunion cops who works in Fullerton.

  13. I never noticed any changes when San clemente disbanded city cops and moved to the OC SD. I was living in San Clements then. The OC SD guys seemed genuinly very happy to have the work. I never experienced any problems with them in way. They did seem less clickish and would speak a little more freely. We can aways go back in a few years if we want to. Competition is wonderful for getting a better Deal -lets don’t be afraid of change!

  14. Councilman Travis Keiger and Mayor Pro Tem Bruce Whitaker have requested the Council to review such a proposal, but Fullerton Mayor Sharon Quirk-Silva told KNX 1070 NEWSRADIO that at this point any plan to do so is in the very early stages.

    “I understand they’re wanting to do maybe a compare-and-contrast, and I certainly will look at that closely as we discuss it, but as far as if I support that and will vote on it, I’m gonna make that decision on Tuesday night,” said Quirk-Silva.

    http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/08/06/fullerton-mulls-handing-over-police-duties-to-oc-sheriff/

  15. The City of Fullerton must have an escape clause in their current FPD contract. It would be worth executing it and making the changes forthwith (making the transformation to OCSD) if the cost savings are $10M or more annually. In fact, it would be stupid not to! So instead of waiting until 2014 – DO IT NOW!!!

    Not only would you save big money. You would also offload the despicable behavior the FPD cops have perpetrated upon the citizens and rid yourselves of the ‘culture of corruption’. The ones with the most to lose would be FPOA and the FPD executives. And that’s why you will see them fight back like badgers. It was never about the citizens and what is best for Fullerton. It was all about what was best for them. And that attitude continues today, even after the Kelly Thomas incident.

    With that said, you would still have problems with OCSD – since their history is not as clean as the wind driven snow. But the change would be a move in a positive direction. You need to offload the past and start anew.

    The attitude of the FPD shows that the are not willing to accept responsibility, publicly acknowledge their wrongdoings (there were many) and beg for your forgiveness.

    Now that their backs are up against the wall they may now feign accountability.

    Don’t buy it. This should have been done long ago.

    Make the move. Now is the time!

  16. Why would Quirk-Silva vote ‘no’ on Tuesday night to prevent a simple cost comparison analysis?

    A ‘no’ vote would really make her look bad.

    It would show that her loyalties are tied to FPD and not to the citizens of Fullerton.

    It would convince me that her tears for Kelly Thomas were more than likely feigned and a big put-on for effect.

    Stay tuned.

    1. JustUs, When I looked up the campaign contribution form 460’s on the city of Fullerton web site, I saw that Mayor SSSSSSSilva has received financial backing from the FireFighter, Police, and Teachers unions, as well as developers, waste haulers, and tow yards that are doing business with the city.

      IMHO she should recuse herself from voting on any matter that pertains to any one of these groups that have provided her campaign with financial support.

    1. Ditto.

      If you can procure the same or less corruption at a smaller cost, common sense says ‘do it now’.

      None of this requires the services of a rocket scientist.

      FPD has only itself to blame.

    2. If pols recused themselves from votes that were related to political donors the majority would have to abstain on nearly all votes.

      The legislative system itself is full of corruption. That is why it has filtered down into the gov agencies. Monkey see, monkey do. Legal corruption is now a routine business practice in government.

      But if a ‘little person’ gets caught at it – he goes to jail.

      Tuesday’s vote will be very telling. Keep all eyes on Quirk-Silva.

      Since she is so outnumbered she may capitulate and vote ‘yea’ to give the appearance of being reasonable since she must now run for a seat in the Assembly.

      But if she votes ‘yea’ you must nevertheless give her the credit due. It would not be fair to put her into a lose-lose position. All of us must be fair. Otherwise we are no better than FPD.

      But I, for one, did not like the quotes that I read from her on this topic. She gives every appearance that he is firmly entrenched in the camp of FPD.

  17. If the FPOA wants to keep their department they had better start a public clean-up of the mess.

    Acknowledge the problem and fix it. Otherwide you won’t get the keys to the squad car.

    1. “If the FPOA wants to keep their department they had better start a public clean-up of the mess”

      IMO it’s too late for that.

      Too much water under the bridge.

      Proceed forward. Don’t look back.

      Besides, it’s a money issue as well. You are going to need to pay those massive pending lawsuits. Saving $10M or more a year on police costs could greatly help in that area.

      FPD did it to themselves and simply can’t be trusted going forward IMO.

  18. I rather pay the $264.00 and get good service than pay the $183.00 and get terrible service. You will regret it if you go with OCSD.

  19. Your not going to save 10mil. Your cant compare YL and FULL. apples for apples. It’s not that simple. Tony’s just trying to get you guys all fired up. Another trick by Bushala.

      1. You are stupid. When you have an emergency and OCSD is to busy having lunch and wont respond right away and one of you family members dies. I hope their life is worth $81.00.

        1. That’s why WE need to be armed, and learn how to take care of ourselves — no one will be there when the event is happening — they aren’t now!

  20. May I point out one big problem with your assumption that this is not complicated:

    OCSD contract with YL do NOT, repeat, does NOt include the cost of defending or paying judgements for ANY police behavior. The City is still liable, its Fullerton’s ass on the line with the OCSD do any wrong. That’s one of the reasons OCSD won out over BPD to police YL. Many Yorba Lindans think this was a vert short-sighted decision.

    1. Not true. The County of Orange is the liable entity for deputies behavior on the job. Note that the city of San Clemente is not the entity being sued when the Marine was shot at San Clemente High School.

      1. That is true FL and that’s also the downside of having the sheriff’s policing your city. No accountability on the city. Meaning that there is less incentive for the city council to take action on cleaning up the sheriffs department since any police abuse lawsuits would not affect the city.

        1. What I would advocate for is to have Dan Hughes and the FPD act in parallel by soliciting feedback from say 5-10% of the citizens that contact them for service, and implement some sort of metrics charts too measure the level of satisfaction that they achieve with their “customer service” .

          Accountability equals responsibility, and all I really want is for the public safety officers to act responsibly when no one is looking, and to show me in black and white metric charts that the residents are extremely happy with the level of service that the FPD is providing.

      2. sorry mark – you are wrong on this. have info from someone who was at the YL council meeting where this point was discussed. ocsd contract stipulates that city of YL assumes defense and any judgement for actions of deputies acting as police agency in YL. One big case against a deputy in YL will easily eat up any savings YL citizens realized converting from Brea PD, because YL contract with Brea said that Brea assumed defense and judgements rendered against a Brea officer in YL.

  21. There are several allegations regarding the OCSD. Remember the Marine shot in front of his own daughters? Or the Aliso Viejo motorcyclist shot in his own front yard by a roque officer who didn’t call for back up? Or the gang rape of a teenager whom her assailants were related to Carona? And lets not forget Carona himself. So when it comes to choosing the lesser of two evils, I prefer to keep the FPD because in the end, the officers live in the community and city council will be responsible for any misconduct. I couldn’t imagine the delay in emergency response time and the lack of compassion (or what’s left of it) from an outsourced entity. Just remember this: how many of you get frustrated when you call your cell phone provider and the CSR on the other end is in the Philippines? It’s the same thing.

  22. A few practical points to consider when evaluating the option of contracting out to the OCSD.
    1. Local police would be employed by the OCSD and NOT the City of Fullerton, therefore the OCSD would be liable for any future claims against the police, and NOT the City of Fullerton.
    2. Fullerton can enter into a fee for service contract for police services and not be considered and employer (of police officers) and thus have ZERO liability for future pension obligations of the OCSD.
    3. Should Fullerton choose to utilize the services of the OCSD and then eventually decide to once again operate its own police department, it could do so from scratch. Fullerton could hire new employees, set pay and benefits at reasonable levels, and create a defined contribution pension plan with ZERO long term liabilities, instead of the current defined benefit time bomb…
    4. Finally, cost savings…How do you calculate the “all in” cost for Fullerton to operate it’s own police department? Who will be responsible for calculating the actual costs? Will a real economic evaluation be conducted to take into account current hard costs, long term liabilities, hidden costs, opportunity costs for using city assets, etc..?

    This is primarily a dollars and cents budget issue…”local control” and “local ownership” of our police department have fallen from the “need” column to the “want” column…Fullerton no longer has the financial ability to fund its wants, it must instead focus its financial resources on its needs!

    1. cd – #1 and #2 depend on how contract is written. #3 sounds good. Maybe use ocsd as an temporary policy agency, then in 2-3 yrs start FPD from scratch. But, if this is about dollars and cents — it will probably be pretty expensive start up.

      1. Well, a re-start from scratch… The budget is there, the assets are there, buildings, etc. are there… just need a new contract and hire competent “peace officers” versus the thugs that work there now.

        IF any “good” officers are left, let them speak NOW. We’ve heard nothing so far, which leads me to believe we must start completely over. NO rehires of current/past FPD officers.

        Sure, they are afraid of retaliation should word get out that these “few good officers” are speaking up, but if they want to secure their jobs, they’d better figure out a way to make themselves known to the right people. Time is running out. Tick Tock.

    2. What about researching what retirement/pension plans provide in other states/departments? and in california as well?

      That might give us better info so that when/if the restructure happens at FPD (God willing) then new hires will be done at the new contract rates, not the old ridiculous ones.

  23. In dollars and cents this is a no brainer. W/ economies of scale OCSD wins hands down. No way in hell could FPD match them dollar for dollar. Look at the cost per capita for OCSD vs. FPD. Compare Fullerton with OC cities already using OCSD. No contest.

    W/ regard to quality of services – you live in a police state – so regardess of which agency you choose you are going to find abuse and violation of civil liberties. I contend OCSD would be no worse, and in all likelihood better than FPD.

    Thus, at first glance this seems to be cut and dried.

    You just need the courage to cut bait and move on.

    The question is – will the pols grant your will or thwart you will?

    Hopefully, with the new Council, they will grant you will.

  24. Out of curiosity, do you recall if anybody campaigned on this issue in the election held two months ago yesterday? Or were they just waiting to spring this on voters? Was this major step mentioned in any of the literature?

    1. There was definitely discussion about it. Travis was asked about it at one of the meet the candidate meetings and basically said he would look at an offer. Which seems to be exactly what is being proposed. No surprise here.

      1. I know it was raised at a meeting. What I doubt is that it was in voter’s heads. One mention at a meeting doesn’t mean squat.

    2. Just wanted to add, what is on the City Council agenda is just seeking an offer from OCSD. That’s just like calling someone and getting an estimate. There is no commitment guaranteed or implied so I don’t see how there could be the slightest harm in it.

      Making an actual decision later, that will require a lot of careful deliberation and public input.

      1. Not even that much. It’s a solicitation for some sort of analysis, not even a formal request for a proposal.

        Nothing to get worked up about unless you happen to be an FPOA boss or on their payroll – like Tricky Dick Ackerman.

            1. So more spending by these idiots, so they can know OCSD price just because? I don’t think the real residents of Fullerton want to spent this money. Only the FFFF city council does. Put this issue on the ballot so we can vote on it.

      1. I hear he was living at Democrat Campaign HQ in DTF, but probably not registered there. Even so he wouldn’t have been targeted as a high propensity voter even in Brea since he’s probably voted there only once!

        1. You “heard” that, did you? Was this from a talking cat, seven-headed snake, or what other hallucination?

          That’s just weird — although I did see some of the campaign lit in question there, and it did not mention closing down the FPD.

  25. Is it possible the OCSD is caught in yet another lie in their version of events leading up to killing of Manny Loggins? Could it actually be that he crashed through the gate AFTER he was shot?
    http://m.kpbs.org/news/2012/apr/04/new-video-shows-sgt-manny-loggins-shooting/

    I don’t want to trade one killing machine for another that we have even less control with (I realize this isn’t saying much). I’m very open to listening to actual research with real comparisons. I also hope the citizens will get to decide via voting.

    I’m here, I’m open minded and I’m listening. Convince me.

    1. It’s like flipping a coin. Sheriff’s gets rotation by seniority. They come and go. You would end up with the same cops on and off thru the years. Just not a bunch of consistency. Jail deputies to street cops. Flip the coin and do it. My advice is get an outside Chief.

        1. Tony. He said call him. He said he will put his money against yours anyday. I send him what you say. He says bring it anytime. He loves people that sit in a cave all day spouting non sense.

    2. Fullerton Rudy, I think were have little control. But I’m not in favor of switching unless there is significant improvement. No amount of money savings makes up for going from bad to worse or even the upheaval created if only for a different uniform.

      I’m in favor of a proposal. Should it be a convincing move, I still feel strongly that it should be left up to a citizens’ vote to be decided upon.

  26. I was also thinking that this essay may have a certain value in being read aloud during the “public comments” portion of tomorrows city council meeting.

  27. E-TICKET :
    Hence, why any contract with any new force, including that of FPD must have iron clad limits on liability – just as there are caps on med mal against physicians. Moroever, if cops are convicted of abuse of power, liability should also be placed on them personally as well their direct supervisors. See how that sails with the unions.

    Have the fullerton corrupt cops give up the corrupt union and we can do business. after all if the corrupt cops are innocent they don’t need a union or even a lawyer.

  28. Rea..lity Is :
    It’s like flipping a coin. Sheriff’s gets rotation by seniority. They come and go. You would end up with the same cops on and off thru the years. Just not a bunch of consistency. Jail deputies to street cops. Flip the coin and do it. My advice is get an outside Chief.

    WE NEED TO CLEAN HOUSE. THESE ANIMALS WERE ALL COMPLICIT WITH THE CRIMES COMMITED BY THEIR PALS.

  29. Pay the cops $12.50 per hour and assume their own liability and retirement. We should have them beating down the door.

  30. Anonymous :
    There are several allegations regarding the OCSD. Remember the Marine shot in front of his own daughters? Or the Aliso Viejo motorcyclist shot in his own front yard by a roque officer who didn’t call for back up? Or the gang rape of a teenager whom her assailants were related to Carona? And lets not forget Carona himself. So when it comes to choosing the lesser of two evils, I prefer to keep the FPD because in the end, the officers live in the community and city council will be responsible for any misconduct. I couldn’t imagine the delay in emergency response time and the lack of compassion (or what’s left of it) from an outsourced entity. Just remember this: how many of you get frustrated when you call your cell phone provider and the CSR on the other end is in the Philippines? It’s the same thing.

    ALL THE OTHER ANIMALS LIVE IN FOOLERTON AND STILL SHIT ON THE COMMUNITY. START FRESSH OR IT WON’T CHANGE. ALSO WHEN THESE ANIMALS ARE RELEASED DUE TO NO FINDINGS THEY WILL BE BACK FOR REVENGE. I AM MOVING OUT OF FOOLERTON.

  31. Double Dip :
    Pay the cops $12.50 per hour and assume their own liability and retirement. We should have them beating down the door.

    THE COPS IN WISCONSIN STILL HAVE THEIR UNION. ALL OTHER PUBLIC UNIONS WERE DISBANDED. WHY DIDN’T WISCONSIN GOVERNOR GO AFTER THE COPS IN WISCONSIN. THEY OWN HIM.

    1. Just like the current governor. He wants to cut pensions and pay and benefits but not for public safety.

  32. Tom Hanson :
    If you have no choice but have corrupt law enforcement, at least go for the most cost effective corruption.

    TOM THEY ARE ALL CORRUPT. $$$$ ON THOSE STREETS. RAMOSHIT IS OUT ON THE STREETS OF FOOLERTON SHAKING DOWN PEOPLE FOR HIS CRONIES STILL IN UNIFORM. EVERYTIME A COP DOES A DISABILITY PENSION THE THIEF GETS AN ENVELOPE FROM THE SECRET RETIREMENT FUND. THE THIEFS THEN PROSPER EVEN MORE WORKING UNDER THE TABLE DOING PRIVATE DETAILS.

  33. The savings ALONE is worth switching! It’s a no brainer. All you need to know is the FPD Union is scared shitless and that in itself is a GREAT sign that this is the way to go.

    DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!

    1. Most Fullerton cops I know are hoping for a change, better pay more opportunities plus two retirements. Thank goodness most FPD cops are sheriff academy grads.

    2. Where do all the Fullerton Officers go “when” OCSD takes over ? They become deputies and continue to work in Fullerton.

      1. Or they can go to cities with less crime and more hot chicks. OC has some great sheriff cities for the scenery.

        1. DQ, you really think that the CC has time to give final approval on every officer that they are going to hire. Years ago when Los Angeles Co Sheriffs Dept took over Compton and hired all by two of the officers. OCSD is hire a number of the Brea officers that were given pink slips when Yorba Linda decided to use OCSD. This is not the solution that Fullerton needs.

          1. Yes, I believe they can MAKE time do to their jobs and give final approval on each and every officer that is hired. If we want to alleviate the current problems, that is one way to hold everyone involved accountable.

        2. DQ, i’ve read your ramblings and have come to the conclusion that you are very similar to most bloggers on this site. While passionate about your cause, you really are ignorant. I don’t say that as an insult, I say that because you really don’t know the facts. First of all this notion that Fullerton can contract year to year w/ OCSD is absurd. OCSD will have to hire more Deputies, period. They will not hire more Deputies unless they are contracted for several years. There will be no “morals” clause allowing Fullerton to terminate the contract. Neither you or the council will have a say in who they hire, period. They will hire many of the current Officers and you won’t be able to do anything about it. The idea that OCSD can just use the PD’s equipment like cars, radios, etc. is great, but what about maintenance? Cars and radios don’t last forever. That’s one reason why public safety can be 75% of a city budget. Public safety is 24/7. Equipment HAS to work and has to always be working.

          This idea of if it doesn’t work we’ll just go back to our own PD is a absurd. You say we can start from the scratch, but do you have any idea what the start up costs would be? They would be so enormous it would not be an option. When was the last time you heard a city the size of Fullerton get rid of the PD, go to Sheriffs, and go back. Its never happened because it’s too expensive. If it’s decided to get rid of FPD it will be permanent. As much as most on this site would like that, most of FPD are good people and are also part of this community. They live here, kids go to school here, and are part of the community.

          It’s disappointing to read this blog and all the hateful things said about cops in general, especially about FPD. Some people on this blog see the PD as an entity and not the couple of hundred people that work there. I don’t disagree there are a few bad ones, but in relation to how many people that work there it doesn’t compare. I have never seen a story on this site about the good things FPD does.

          There are bad people in EVERY profession, yet it seems cops more than anyone are all painted bad when there are a few rotten apples.

          1. All the south County cities have annual contract. YOU are the one who is ignorant.

            FPD has earned its demerits. Embrace it. Embrace the criminality. Then exorcise it. Until you do there will always be a Culture of Corruption.

          2. “there are bad people in every profession”….

            AND YET

            THOSE people don’t necessarily have the power of life and death in their hands — tasers, guns, batons, flashlights! THAT’S why cops need to be seriously vetted before and during their employment.

            I stand by my original comments.

  34. Once you go Sheriff you will never go back. For sure. Look at cities that have tried.

    Compare crime stats for Mission Viejo and Fullerton. You will see the difference when the bid comes in. It won’t be close to MV. Chris is my relative.

    Even a city like MV. Run their police costs for the last 10 years. For that matter take 10 OCSD cities and look at their contracts from inception to now. Stats are the truth. Their pattern is known.

    Hire Tina Nieto from LAPD. She will clean up shop and keep the boys in check. Her colors do wonders.

    🙂

        1. Yes please. Something comparable in size and crime with costs for the last 10 years. It will be great information. Thanks.

          1. Would that include crimes committed by the FPD? Subtract those and Fullerton starts to look like Brentwood.

        2. Once you go Sheriff you will never go back. For sure. Look at cities that have tried.

          Compare crime stats for Mission Viejo and Fullerton. You will see the difference when the bid comes in. It won’t be close to MV. Chris is my relative.

          Even a city like MV. Run their police costs for the last 10 years. For that matter take 10 OCSD cities and look at their contracts from inception to now. Stats are the truth. Their pattern is known.

          Hire Tina Nieto from LAPD. She will clean up shop and keep the boys in check. Her colors do wonders.

        3. Let me step in here and help out.

          Crummy, lawless Stanton pays OCSD $213 per capita = $8 mil. Fullerton is 3.7 times bigger than crime ridden Stanton. 3.7 times $8 mil = $30 mil.

          Comparison with nasty Stanton still yields a $7,000,000 differential for Fullerton.

          Sorry. You lose again.

          1. If you think square miles is how they base their contract, then that shows your intelligence level. Give up while you are ahead. You have a brain like Tony. Fried from PCP use.

            1. Getting desperate, much?

              Stanton is dinky. Fullerton would get economies to scale.

              You’re losing Mr. Reality Was.

      1. Exactly how is Fullerton like Stanton? Stanton is 1/3 the size of Fullerton and does not have a godzillian bars in its downtown area. So let me know how the two are even comparable? Mission Viejo is closer to the size of Fullerton area and population. Stanton is like a big Hawaiian Gardens with no casino where their police force was disbanded and they use LASO. Saved them a lot of money!

    1. All of the south County cities get lower police services using the Sheriff Department. Why wouldn’t you opt in? You’ll never be able to tell the difference. Except you’ll get better, more courteous service at two thirds the cost!!

  35. thnkfstpal :
    The savings ALONE is worth switching! It’s a no brainer. All you need to know is the FPD Union is scared shitless and that in itself is a GREAT sign that this is the way to go.
    DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!DISBAND THE FPD!!

    AGREE. IF THE CORRUPT SADISTIC COPS ARE NOT REPLACED, THEY WILL BANKRUPT OUR CITY WITH EXPLOITIVE DISABILITY PENSIONS AND CIVIL SUITS. THEY WILL NOT STOP DOING WHAT THEY PLEASE ON THE STREETS.
    LET’S PLEASE START NEW. LET’S DO IT BEFORE THEY ALL EXIT ON PHONY DISABILITY PENSIONS.

  36. OCSD is actually higher pay too. Just paying your own retirement portion. More promotions by default too and more places to do things. Just not cal pers. prolly better for the Fullerton pigs at this point.

  37. Has the City of Fullerton ever considered forming an alliance with Buena Park, Anaheim and Garden Grove to create one department? Otherwise all 3 will likely get swallowed up by OCSD. The most important part of the equation is that you have to teach your cops not be be cowboys. People get tired of that. Your primary objective should be to really SERVE the citizens, not disrespect them or give the impression that you are better than they are. You’re not. If don’t want to SERVE and RESPECT – go sell insurance or clean carpets for living.

  38. There are certainly reasons to clean house but cost savings and better service will not happen with OCSD taking over Fullerton. Fullerton has an unfunded liability with CALPERS that comes due at an accelerated rate once the switch happens. This will knock out any “savings” for a decade or more. Currently the rate is smoothed over a more manageable 30 year period.

    OC has a huge unfunded pension liability that will necessitate an increase to each deputies county paid contribution rate. Give Girard Miller a few more months and he will have the exact numbers. The county will be compelled to pass on these huge costs to contract cities.

    As far as service, deputies spend their first few years in a custodial setting where they command absolute adherence to their every whim from those in-custody. When they hit the streets they bring this attitude with them. Watch out!

    1. “As far as service, deputies spend their first few years in a custodial setting where they command absolute adherence to their every whim from those in-custody. When they hit the streets they bring this attitude with them. Watch out!”

      Not true. Fullerton can dictate who they get – including any good cops that may still be on the roster.

      1. Yeah but with POBOR how would we know which ones are the good ones and which are the bad? Their personnel files are all sealed, right?

        1. Let’s start by making a list of lying, perjuring, murdering assistants, Brady cops who are still employed by FPD:

          Goodrich
          Wren
          Coffman
          Hampton
          Nygun
          Saliceo
          Blatney
          Craig

          1. I don’t believe you even know what it is to be labeled a Brady Officer or who makes that decision. It sure doesn’t come from you and with this list you struck out at every at bat.

            1. No. Hampton will never be called on to testify again. Nor Nguyen. Not Wren, either (false imprisonment? That’ll look good to the defense).

              Kaput.

      2. Fred, you my friend are an idiot. Every time I see your name I know I’m in for some nonsense.

        “Not true. Fullerton can dictate who they get – including any good cops that may still be on the roster.”

        Do you really think you can dictate who they hire? Why? Let me guess, because you pay their salary. What a dumbass!

  39. BTW, can’t wait for the political battle this fall between the FPOA and the AOCDS. Guess who is better funded?

    Hahahaha!

    1. Fred, great point. The FPOA will pimp out Blankhead and Flory and some other idiot, but wait until the Big Boys hammer the New Bald Tires!

    2. The AOCDS guy got an ovation at tonight’s meeting when he said that he supported the FPD staying intact. So keep waiting.

  40. $10,000,000 a year in savings is nothing to sneeze about. Alternatively, the FPD union could renegotiate a contract and reduce salaries and benefits by 30%. Either way works. So the question is does Mr. Coffman desire to have the union cut salaries and benefits by 30%? Who knows, it may only be the few at the top who are not covered by a union rank and file contract.
    Remember, when you screw up a city, it takes some big swats to bring the budget under control.

  41. Holy Shit!

    Did anyone listen to SQS’s KNX 1070 interview?

    If this is a canidate for state office we really need to reconsider Greg Diamond. Not only was this (rehersed) interview opportunistic (READ: FPOA), she was nearly incoherent. A tenth grader could have done better.

    Maybe she was distracted, but to go on Southern California’s leading news source and speak like a child is unbelieveable.

    Maybe here Lawyer friend in brea can give her tips. She sounded like a blubbering fool. She refused to take a stand, but couldn’t even difine the issue.

    If this is the Mayor, we need a mechanic. At least Hee Haw had some passion. She was so afraid of pissing off Barry, you could smell it!

  42. Before the Council goes rushing into any bid reviews, consider that Costa Mesa was all GA GA about the OCFA replacing their Fire Department.

    Something went very wrong, and they’re keeping their own operation.

    1. So you’re saying they had this grand idea to make a change, got a proposal and then changed their minds? That’s ok. But we have to get a proposal first, no commitment would be made without it.

      Easy enough to fire all the FPD idiots from the Chief, and WC all the way to the office personnel if necessary, and start over.

      The point being, some ACTION needs to be done. I hope all the little jerk cops are shaking in their official boots at this point. They are now finding out they ARE ALL REPLACEABLE from the Top idiot to the bottom.

      Let’s see how big and bad they are without their badge and gun to protect them when they are abusing the very folks they are hired to protect and SERVE.

      I used to be very pro cop, but I have seen the light and it’s not pretty.

      1. “I have seen the light and it’s not pretty”. What happened? Did someone change the lightbulb and you got a glimpse of yourself in the mirror?

    1. Excellent find! Wake up little control freaks, your uniforms will be a thing of the past soon — how will you EVER cope with having to be just a “regular” person? lol

    1. learn what the law says about touching a cop or a uniform

      Penal Code 5255.1(m): If my wife finds out I’ll just bust her lip open and have my brothers arrest her for battery, child endangerment and disorderly conduct.

  43. Tan n green baby. Can you picture Andy Goodrich in tan n green? Tan n green make people look fatter than blue. He would be demoted to sergeant too. I heard tan n green love batons in bars with drunks too. The future is bright.

    1. Can you picture Andy Goodrich in tan n green?

      No gun, huffing it around theo lacy and making 25% less in wages. He’ll LOVE it.

      1. officers still have two years, possibly three years left in their contract. By then the new city council will squash it.

  44. Question for our illustrious Administrator, or anyone who really has the knowledge:

    How long is the process that leads to the FPD being put under a consent decree, where a Federal judge essentially watches over the actions of FPD, lets say for 10 yrs. It did wonders for the LAPD.

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