Reading the Tea Leaves: Parsing the Statements out of the DA’s Office


Attorney Mark Cabaniss has provided us with more expert analysis on the potential prosecution of the Fullerton police officers responsible for Kelly Thomas’ death:

It is getting close to decision time for the DA in the Kelly Thomas case.  While the investigation is still not completed and must be before any charges are brought, if any are brought, some of us are nervous, and increasingly disturbed at the way things are going, or not going, and at the unseemly deference given to the six police.

Unfortunately, in public pronouncements about the case, the Orange County DA’s office has sometimes given the impression that they are on the side of the police, even though the police are the criminal suspects.  This is unusual.  Usually the DA is on the side of the people, and against the alleged criminals.  Usual prosecutorial practice is to charge as many people as possible, with the most serious charges possible, in order to create the most leverage for the DA to get people to plead guilty and settle the case without a trial.  For example, in a case with multiple defendants, the DA might make a deal for one or more defendants to agree to testify against the other defendant(s) in exchange for reduced charges, or even outright immunity.  And in every case the DA charges the most serious charges warranted by the facts, so that he can get the defendant to plead guilty to a less serious charge, in exchange for getting rid of the more serious charge.  But in this case, the Kelly Thomas case, the DA has set a pattern of preemptive surrender, conceding points to the (possible) criminal defense even before any charges are filed, indeed, even before the investigation is complete.

For example, the Orange County DA said, HERE, that he had seen the unreleased surveillance tape, and had seen no evidence of intent to kill.  Legally speaking, this is an inane non sequitur, equivalent to saying that he had seen the tape, and seen no evidence that anyone was left-handed, or 5 foot six—it simply has no legal significance to the case whatsoever.  If the police are charged–and we have to wait to see what the investigation reveals about any criminal culpability–they might be charged with felony murder, under which a death is murder, even if unintentional, if it somehow is caused by the commission of any of several dangerous felonies.  For example, kidnappers might accidentally leave their hostage locked up too long in an airtight room, where he suffocates.  That would be felony murder, even if the kidnappers were racing home out of concern for their hostage’s air supply, and were delayed too long by a flat tire.  The bottom line is simple, and for the defendant, brutal:   In felony murder, intent is irrelevant.  So why is the DA talking about some legally meaningless point?  A cynic might say that it looks like an attempt to mislead the public, telling them that there is no evidence of intent to kill, so that the public won’t question a decision not to prosecute the police for murder.  But the police can absolutely be prosecuted for murder even if Kelly Thomas’ death was unintentional, as long as they can be prosecuted for an underlying dangerous felony, such as mayhem or torture.  I for one am betting that the DA knows this, since his office prosecutes felony murder cases all the time.  In fact, there is a case of the Orange County DA’s office prosecuting an unintentional felony murder in this past Friday’s Los Angeles Times.

If the DA were to decide on torture felony murder as the appropriate charge, he has at least one capable prosecutor to handle the case, the one that got a torture conviction for the Orange County DA’s office against an Austin Powers bit player (LA Times).

Certainly the conduct in the above torture case was horrific, but not, I think, more horrific than tasing a man over and over while he cried out for his Dad to save him.

Another non sequitur or red herring found in the story above is the phrase “excessive force,” as in “We will prosecute if the police used excessive force.”  But the phrase “excessive force” is not found in the California Penal Code.  It is a phrase used in civil lawsuits, civil rights lawsuits alleging police brutality, to get money out of the taxpayers to compensate the victims and survivors of police brutality for their suffering.  In a criminal context, the only way that I can think of to use the phrase would be in an attempt to talk a murder charge down to an involuntary manslaughter charge.  To illustrate: one definition of involuntary manslaughter is when a death unintentionally results from doing a lawful act in an unlawful manner.  In this case, the defense lawyers could attempt to beat a murder charge by arguing that the defendants were, at most, guilty of involuntary manslaughter.  The argument would go like this:  The police were doing a lawful act, making a lawful arrest, but may have done so in an unlawful manner, by using excessive force, unintentionally killing the defendant.  If the jury goes for it, the defense would have reduced a murder charge down to a much less serious involuntary manslaughter charge.  But that is an argument for the defense to make, not the DA.  Simply put, the use of the phrase “excessive force” might be seen as an attempt to hide the truth rather than illuminate it, in that it is a subtle way to introduce the idea that an involuntary manslaughter charge is somehow appropriate to a case that is still under investigation, and which looks, at least at this juncture, to possibly warrant a charge of felony murder.  Presumably the DA knows that the phrase “excessive force” isn’t in the Penal Code.  So why is he using it?

Moreover, an involuntary manslaughter charge in this case would rest on what may turn out to be a very flimsy premise, namely, that the police were doing something lawful (“making an arrest”) in the first place.  Normally, the prosecutor would scoff at such a self-serving statement as a misstatement of the facts, and say that beating an unconscious man to death is not “making a lawful arrest.”  Normally the argument that a murder was actually only an involuntary manslaughter would be the defense lawyer’s argument to make, since it is customary practice in criminal trials for the defense lawyer to defend the accused, not the prosecutor.

Second:   the DA’s office put out a statement, found HERE, saying that if the police are prosecuted, they will be prosecuted for second degree murder.  What happened to the idea that we had to wait until the investigation was complete before jumping to conclusions regarding the culpability of the cops?  Why second degree murder?  Shouldn’t the DA prosecute a first-degree murder case, if that is where the investigation leads?   There are felony murder cases that can be brought for both first degree murder and second degree murder.  There is even at least one first degree felony murder charge, which might be applicable to this case, with mayhem as the predicate felony, under which the DA can seek the death penalty, and probably already has, in cases in which the suspects were ordinary criminals, instead of alleged police criminals.  The DA’s office, in this statement, for some reason, indicated a desire to give the six suspects a huge break, possibly even sparing them from the death penalty, before the case is even investigated, even charged, or even plea bargained.  That is not how things normally work.

To be fair, the DA himself also said, HERE, that everything was on the table, including, presumably, first degree murder prosecution.  Still, it does make one wonder what kind of internal discussions they are having in the DA’s office.

The third concerning statement, to come out of the DA’s office regarding the Kelly Thomas case is found HERE, and was in reference to the various threats that have been made against the police, which threats were used as justification for not releasing the names of the six police officers to the public.  One of the “threats” enumerated by the DA’s office was the following statement:  “Kelly Thomas was murdered by numerous officers and they should get the death penalty.”  Strange, isn’t it, that the DA walks into court every single day and says “This murderer should get the death penalty,” and yet, for some reason sees that exact same statement as a “threat” in this case.  It might be a threat if the statement had been “the police are murderers and WILL get the death penalty;” but the use of the conditional words “they should” by whoever made the statement indicates a belief in a qualifying condition precedent to the imposition of the death penalty, i.e., that the murdering police should get the death penalty IF they are found guilty of capital murder.  If I say “State law provides that those who are found guilty of capital murder can get the death penalty,” while that certainly sounds threatening to those who have reason to fear state law, it is, nonetheless, a statement of fact.  If a criminal defendant were to say to the judge, in court “Your Honor, the DA is threatening me.  He is calling me a murderer and he is trying to get me the death penalty,” the judge would nod and explain that yes, the DA is doing his job.  In sum, the law is a “threat” only to criminals.

The police department spokesman complained that the “threats” were anonymous, and thus difficult to track.  But I am not anonymous, and I believe that the witness accounts of the beating death of Kelly Thomas that have appeared in the media, i.e., that six police beat a man into unconsciousness and continued beating him even after he stopped moving and lost consciousness, are, if found credible after the current investigation, strong evidence to support a charge of felony murder against all six officers involved.  I also believe that if the investigation reveals that Kelly Thomas would have needed plastic surgery to repair his face had he lived, or that he had broken bones, or permanently and severely damaged organs, such as his eyes or ears, that a charge of felony murder with the crime of mayhem as the predicate felony would be legally warranted.  I further believe that if the police were subject to a felony murder prosecution with mayhem as the predicate felony, then the prosecutor should seek the death penalty.  Finally, I also believe that if the police were to receive death sentences after trial, then they ought to be executed, just like other killers.

In sum, the DA must soon decide whether to charge the Fullerton six, and if so, with what.  I for one wish him well.  In the first story linked above, the DA called the killing of Kelly Thomas “a tragedy.”  It wasn’t.  A fatal accident is a tragedy.  A young man dying of cancer is a tragedy.   A young man getting shot or stabbed or beaten to death is a crime.

 

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  1. #1 by tmz on September 12, 2011

    First!!!!!!!!

    • #2 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

      Not sure what difference it makes, since that’s all you say!

      • #3 by tmz on September 12, 2011

        Third!!!! Happy now jackass?

        • #4 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

          LOL!!!! You crack me up!

      • #5 by truthseeker on September 12, 2011

        This thing is so upside down it’s off the chain. The truth is everywhere on this no matter what spin the OFFICIALS put on it. Mr. DA, please keep in mind that it is never too late to do the RIGHT thing.

        • #6 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

          Exactly!!

  2. #7 by Christian on September 12, 2011

    I ran into a Dept. DA the other day who has worked on several cases involving the McKinley 6. The Dept. DA wasn’t surprised about Kelly’s death or that those involved have been implicated. They did express concern with the way boss T-Rack has handled the case. Obviously the Dept. DA values their job and refuses to speak publicly.

    No one wants to rock the boat and risk their job.

    • #8 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

      A deputy DA told you he had concerns about the way T-Rak “has handled the case?”

      That’s strange, most attorney’s I deal with are precise with their words, at this point there is no case to handle, there is an investigation. Next time you see this deputy DA perhaps you could ask him to be more specific as to what parts of the investigation he has concerns… now that would be interesting…

      • #9 by Jt on September 12, 2011

        In other words, since what you say sounds unfavorable to T-Rack, EyeNeverSayNo is going to accuse you of fabricating the whole thing. As evidence, you used the word “case” instead of investigation.

        Did I say pedantic earlier?

        • #10 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          Nope, I actually asked him to post specific “unfavorable to T-Rack” info, not just vague heresay. I’d really l like to know what this “Dept. DA” finds fault with in the investigation.

          • #11 by Christian on September 12, 2011

            I know they didn’t want to say a lot because of the people near us but they gave me their card so I’ll ask if their is anything specific.

          • #12 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            Thanks.

    • #13 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

      SEVERAL CASES AGAINST THE FPD 6? WHAT ARE OR WERE THEY? CAN YOU GET THE INTEL?

      • #14 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

        Sniff sniff.

  3. #15 by James on September 12, 2011

    As I watch this case unfold here in North Carolina, I am amazed at the level of obstrufication, denial, and blameshifting going on by the authorities of Fullerton. How the citizens of the city can have any confidence in its police dept is beyond me. There should be 400 people showing up in front of the DA’s home and office not just 40. There should be OUTRAGE by the public. Where are the citizens of Fullerton. Do you not care what has happened in your city?

    • #16 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

      THE PUBLIC IS OUTRAGED!!

      We have had a protest in front of the police station every Saturday for several weeks. We also held a protest in front of the DA’s office. We have flooded the council chambers during city council meetings to voice our outrage. There are 3 city council members who are now targets of a recall for their handling of the situation. The police chief has stepped down.

      We are now waiting for the DA to do his job, but because of police union backing, it is doubtful as to what he is going to do.

      • #17 by Maria on September 17, 2011

        The police chicken…errrr chief has stepped down or went on medical leave? Last I heard, he had only extended his medical leave, not resigned. There is a rather large difference here.

  4. #18 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

    It’s my understanding that the FBI and Attorney General are monitoring the DA’s investigation. If the DA balks on charging the cops, these two agencies will step in. I will be very surprised if the DA comes back with several serious indictments!

    • #19 by Mark on September 13, 2011

      When you state, “…………that the FBI and Attorney General……..”, do you mean the US Attorney General or the State Attorney General? In any event, is it time to begin considering a complaint against the DA to the Bar Association of some of his troubling comments, as outlined by Mr. Cabaniss?

  5. #20 by Protester on September 12, 2011

    Would it be illegal to organize a protest in front of the DA’s residence in Anaheim Hills or at the Mrs. T-Rack’s Corona Del Mar residence?

    In organizing the protest, the organizers would have to tell protesters the address so that they know where to meet to hold their PEACEFUL protest.

    Any legal opinions?

    • #21 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

      If it’s in a public place and you don’t do anything illegal to conduct a protest, why not? Get any permits though! If it’s in a gated community, different story though.

    • #22 by Travis on September 12, 2011

      It’s perfectly legal and a 1st amendment right. Remember the Marilynn Davenport protesters in front of her home? The FPD cordoned off a little “free speech zone” in the street for them.

      • #23 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        Public records show an address on E. Fallsview in Anaheim, CA 92808 as being owned by T-Rack.

        If its a gated community, we will need to stand at the front gate.

        If FFFF can organize the event, we’ll announce the rest. Maybe one for the Corona Del Mar home on Curl, too.

        • #24 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

          What about a visit to Chief Sellers in SanClemete. We would all like to know how his extended vacation is going.

    • #25 by The Fullerton Savage on September 12, 2011

      I don’t see the point of such an action. The DA’s actions are in the public sphere, and deserve to be addressed there, at the civic center. Protesting in front of someone’s private residence, in my opinion, accomplishes little other than angering his neighbors.

      • #26 by Protester on September 12, 2011

        Embarrassing him in his own neighborhood isn’t a bad idea though.

      • #27 by Xer on September 12, 2011

        Second that.

    • #28 by outrageous on September 12, 2011

      love this idea. hopefully, someone will posts all the lagalities on protesting at the D.A’s home.

  6. #29 by another anonymous person on September 12, 2011

    Christian :I ran into a Dept. DA the other day who has worked on several cases involving the McKinley 6. The Dept. DA wasn’t surprised about Kelly’s death or that those involved have been implicated. They did express concern with the way boss T-Rack has handled the case. Obviously the Dept. DA values their job and refuses to speak publicly.
    No one wants to rock the boat and risk their job.

    i can’t believe there is no way for this person to secretly report wrong doings to the attorney general or FBI thru an ombudsman or some other way. Maybe give past cases for them to look into,
    to see a pattern.

  7. #30 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

    Everyone know that this case garners some criminal charges and the DA had best not side with the gestapo this time, he will have zero support-(maybe a few of his buds/realtives ) from the citizens for anything
    and the case will be brought to AG if nothing happens- Rawcockus will be looked at as corrupt and using kronyism, if not already, there is no reason on earth not to show some charges other than pure D corrupt and kronyism.

  8. #31 by Simple Justice on September 12, 2011

    Until he was called out, the DA kept referring to Kelly as “that individual”. Hey, Mr. DA, you represent that individual. Learn his name and use it. Something is askew when the DA and Hamilton refuse to release the video, but characterize the video with the same tricky “significant struggle” phrase to perpetuate the myth that Kelly was the attacker. Hey, Mr. DA, could the significant struggle be that Kelly was viciously attacked and struggled with every fiber of his being to stay alive?

    The DA has been handed a mountain of evidence in this case on a silver platter. He knows exactly what happened. He knows what was said and done to Kelly to make him bolt. If there was no probable cause to detain kelly, or the police were there on unofficial business, every finger apllied to kelly was pure assault.

    Awhile ago, the DA went over and talked to the opinion writers at the Register. Here is what he said. Notice the first and foremost question involved:

    “When asked what police policy might explain the damage to Mr. Thomas’ face, Mr. Rackauckas replied: “I don’t want to put myself in a position of defending those images.” He elaborated: “The question will be not so much about policy, the question will be whether or not police have a right to use reasonable and necessary force in performing a lawful duty.” The first question: Were they performing a lawful duty when they detained him? The second question: Was the force reasonable? Mr. Rackauckas noted that a citizen can resist unlawful force. Fleeing, as Mr. Thomas did according to witnesses, would be one form of resisting.”

    http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-29/news/29946593_1_rackauckas-officers-investigation

    Hey, Mr. DA, just go where the evidence leads and do the right thing. The public will support this approach.

  9. #32 by MeYou on September 12, 2011

    They need to figure out the charges against the whole TEAM THAT NIGHT

    not just 6

    who was commanding officer that reviewed their reports and let them keep their badges

    who was the video camera operator/dispatcher

    ^^ they witnessed a murder and did NOT ONE THING about it

    This trial has the potential to change the whole USA

    Someone said the police officer who gave out tickets for first amendment horn honking was the Police Officers Union President

    WHAT A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to show how fucking retarded and CORRUPT the WHOLE TEAM IS

    The Union President… is so dumb he tickets people for honking their horn ???????????

    Can you imagine PAYING $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ a salary for a fat fuck like that … why does he deserve it.. He obviously HATES HIS EMPLOYERS

    YOU are his employers.. your tax dollars THEY STEAL

    World needs to take notice of Fullerton… Government Corruption may just get punched in the donut eater because of this case

    • #33 by fullerton lover on September 12, 2011

      http://www.ci.fullerton.ca.us/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=5183
      The Fullerton Police Officers Association President is Barry Coffman. If you Google his name, coupled with Fullerton Police Officers Association, and ask for “images”, you’ll see his “shellac black” hair dye and donut eating face in pictures that match the officer in the video that was giving the protester a citation. His compadre and Vice President is Robert Kirk who was the bald officer nervously waiting for “Beefcake Barry” to finish writing the citation.
      Note that I also included a FPOA contractual agreement with the city of Fullerton, and found that the FPOA has in this written contract on page 38 “Article 40″ that the “association” are the only ones that will be permitted to operate and profit from the vending machines within the Police Department. You just can’t make this stuff up, because truth is always stranger (and much more interesting) than fiction.
      I also noticed that this agreement expired on July 30th,2011 and wondered if this agreement is up for renewal or has already been ratified?

      • #34 by Jt on September 12, 2011

        Is Robert Kirk the “go home or go to jail” guy?

        In an only tangentially related question, does the association stock anabolic steroids in their vending machines?

        • #35 by business owner on September 12, 2011

          yes

  10. #36 by peanut on September 12, 2011

    I have been visiting this website ever since I first learned of this tragic event. I am a supporter, of Mr Thomas and the Saturday protests. I am also of the opinion that the D.A., will do nothing with regards to charges being filed against the Fullerton 6. He did nothing to Haidles son until the Newport P.D. became involved. He did nothing to Corona, Jarimillo, or Haidle senior, he did nothing to the two sheriff who ordered the murder of Chamberlain at the Theo Lacy Facility(one is actually still working), and he will do nothing with this case. I hope I am wrong but, his history speaks volumes. I will continue to support the protestors on saturday’s, and the Thomas family.

    • #37 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

      –Peanut wrote: “He did nothing to Haidl’s son until the Newport P.D. became involved.”–

      Why don’t you get your facts straight?

      The Haidl Gang Rape occurred on July 5th, a Friday, an informant turned in the infamous videotape to San Bernardino police a couple of days later.

      Newport Beach police obtained the tape and concluded their investigation shortly thereafter and presented their evidence to the OC DA.

      On Friday, July 12th, ONE week later, the OC DA charged those assholes, and also determined that the dozens of counts of rape and sexual assault he filed against them were was so heinous that the three teens should be tried as adults.

      Yes, that’s right. One week from the crime to extremely serious charges being filed by the OC DA.

      Yet another conspiracy charge posted to FFF goes down in flames.

      • #38 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

        You are ruining the plan here. They say things like fact to get people to believe them when the reality is, it’s all made up and a lie. Let them play their game. It makes them look worse in the end.

      • #39 by Jt on September 12, 2011

        “He did nothing to Corona, Jarimillo, or Haidle senior, he did nothing to the two sheriff who ordered the murder of Chamberlain at the Theo Lacy Facility(one is actually still working), and he will do nothing with this case.”

        If you’re going to try to debunk an accusation, debunk all of it. Come on, let’s hear it.

        • #40 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          I didn’t ‘try’ to debunk the accusation that the DA “did nothing to Haidles (sic) son until the Newport P.D. became involved,” I debunked his totally false charge thoroughly and completely. Readers can decide for themselves if ‘peanut’ still has credibility with regard to the other cases mentioned.

          That being said, I’ll try reply to your request in more detail as time permits.

      • #41 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        quick turnaround time on non-cop rapists.

        • #42 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          Yes, non-cops are much easier to prosecute and get a conviction than are cops.

          Cops go into court to defend themselves with an advantage. So do pretty girls, rich people, white folks, celebrities, etc.

          In the Haidl Gang Rape, the assholes did in fact enjoy some of those advatages, but the case against them was overwhelming, and although the wheels of justice ended up turning slowly, thanks to the videotape and the heinous nature of the crime. Hopefully, in a few years, we will be saying the same of the cops who murdered Kelly Thomas.

      • #43 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        You mention time tables in referencing the action taken by the DA, any thoughts on the specific time table you think is a reasonable one for a decision from the DA regarding the Kelly Thomas case?
        no later than———– ?????

        • #44 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          That’s a good question. The DA has indicated that his office is waiting for the Forensic Pathologists to complete their work and for the Coroner’s Office to submit their report on the cause of death. In the recent suicide death of Huy Pham, the man who jumped from the top of the Costa Mesa City Hall on the day he was scheduled to receive a lay-off notice, the toxicology and autopsy reports took 10 weeks. We are nearing that benchmark in the Thomas murder, so I’m taking T-Rack at his word that the DA’s office will be concluding its investigation ‘soon.’

          One caveat: I noticed on the Certificate of Death release by Ron Thomas last week that the attending physician apparently did not order an immediate autopsy… that line was blank. I would hope I’m wrong but it seems possible to me that the ball may have been dropped and the toxicology testing and autopsy might not have begun until the firestorm of controversy erupted after Ron Thomas’ appearance before the Fullerton CC on August 2nd. If so it’s gonna be a long month (at least) of conspiracy theories and such here on FFF. :)

          • #45 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

            looking for YOUR opinion; no later than—-????? :)

            00/00/20–

          • #46 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

            no later than, Date……………..******crickets*******
            00/00/0000 :)

          • #47 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            I gave you my opinion, if the autopsy was begun right after Thomas died, maybe as short as a week, if the ball was dropped and it was not begin until the shit hit the fan it could be as long as another month, perhaps longer. If we get into October and the DA is still saying ‘soon,’ we’ll know somebody f’d up bad. If we get into November without a decision from T-Rack, well, I just don’t see that happening.

            Now, please tell us, what do *you* think is a reasonable time frame? Let me guess, last month? :)

          • #48 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

            Well “reasonably” I think the “ball should not have been dropped” so you do the math.
            Thanks for the answer. :)

          • #49 by David Bailey on September 13, 2011

            All deaths in OC are investigated by the Coroner unless there is an actively treating doctor who can sign off as to a natural cause of death. I’m sure Kelly was under the custody of the Coroner’s Dept immediately after his death. They would have completed an autopsy within a few days.

            They are stonewalling and intentially delaying the (public disclosure of the) results. If they are not, then they are really inept and should be replaced with competent personel.

          • #50 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 17, 2011

            David Bailey wrote: “They would have completed an autopsy within a few days.”

            No. Complete toxicology testing, a vital part of this autopsy, typically takes anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks. In the recent suicide death of Huy Phan, the guy who jumped from the roof of the Costa Mesa City Hall, his autopsy took 10 full weeks. And that one turned out to be favorable to government officials, so the cover-up theory of delay did not apply.

  11. #51 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

    All are Terrible

    I am a former Fullerton police officer who
    worked with the six accused of beating Kelly
    Thomas. Two officers are directly responsible
    for the death; one has been a ticking time
    bomb for years. He lives in Corona. Both the
    Fullerton and Corona Police Depts. have covered
    up his numerous previous altercations.
    All six are terrible police officers and
    deserve to go to prison for manslaughter, pergury,
    and lying on police reports.
    Chief Sellers is a disgrace to the profession.
    He has made it his captains’ mission to find
    out who is the “leak” at the department and
    has said not only will that officer be terminated,
    he will be prosecuted. For what? Telling
    the truth?
    I left the department because it is corrupt
    and full of “Good ol Boys Clubs,” but I still
    know people at FPD. They are appalled by
    the actions of the six officers. The man who
    died, did not need to die.

    anonymous

    The Fullerton Observer
    Early September, 2011 issue, page 3.

    • #52 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

      An anonymous ex-cop on a message board who spells perjury witha ‘g’?

      Umm, okay.

      • #53 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        Dismissing this over a spelling error?
        Umm, okay.
        I make spelling errors all the time.

        • #54 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          Well, there are spelling errors and typos and then there are spelling mistakes that stand out as revelatory. Cops don’t spell perjury with a ‘g.’ The gratuitous and off topic mention of the Corona PD also seems strange, like somebody has an axe to grind and is trying to piggyback onto the Thomas case.

          Just my opinion, you are of course free to disagree.

          • #55 by Joe Blow on September 12, 2011

            “The gratuitous and off topic mention of the Corona PD also seems strange, like somebody has an axe to grind and is trying to piggyback onto the Thomas case.”

            Well, is what he said true? Did one of these officers also work/live in Corona? You’re trying to dismiss him based on a typo, yet he provided some information I haven’t seen anywhere else. If its true, then the person who wrote to the observer must have some sort of knowledge. I attempted to look up the 5 officers that are known & I wasn’t able to find anything through a quick Google search.

          • #56 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

          • #57 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            Like I said, there are typos and then there are spelling mistakes that seem more revelatory, you know, as if the person really didn’t know how to spell the word and just took a guess.

            Yeah, I found Cicinelli’s address and Hampton’s, but neither live in Corona.

            Here’s Cicinelli’s address, it would appear he lives in La Mirada.

            http://www.paladium.net/usa-farcalifPoliceOfficer-cA.php

          • #58 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            Blatney doesn’t live in Corona either, according to that site. Who else should we be looking for? Ramos doesn’t come up…

          • #59 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            Ramos and Wolfe don’t come up either…

          • #60 by dixiejon on September 12, 2011

            i never met an intelligent porkchop in my life though they do pretend to know it all

        • #61 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

          no shit this person has an axe to grind with FPD, they are stating a tale of FPD corruption, something that is fairly believable at this time and something those involved cant talk about or choose not too (HELLO BLUE CODE OF SILENCE). If this guy is indeed a former officer and everything said is true, giving his name would be an invitation for bad things.
          I spell words pertinent to my field wrong all the time. One of our directors pet peeves, spelling errors on contract docs.

          • #62 by Xer on September 12, 2011

            Anonymous:

            Me too, I’m a wretched speller. When I learnt spelling it was “write every word in today’s list fifty times, then take the spelling test tomorrow. Got terrible grades in spelling and still can’t spell without a dictionary/spellcheck. All my life I hated the rote ‘style’ of teaching.

            My kids had better education. They learned to spell phonetically. They can spell ANYTHING even if they have no idea what the word means. Even though I still can’t spell for beans, my mind remains keen and I have read thousands of books and periodicals in my lifetime. Being able to spell ain’t everything by any means. May not can spell well, but sure as heck do understand word meanings from all that reading. Connotative over denotative, but dictionaries help with the latter when in doubt. Belittling someone’s thoughts for their spelling is pretty superficial thinking, imo.

            Okay, that said, I do look askance at a cop who can’t spell perjury. But, didn’t someone say FPD mostly have GEDS? That could explain it, in fact it could explain a lot! So, I might take that particular individual’s post with a grain of salt, but would not totally discount it on one incorrect letter. Simply add it to the body of all things considered. Again, jmho.

            Although I am not here just to defend the DA either.

      • #63 by Jt on September 12, 2011

        This was a letter to the Fullerton Observer, a print newspaper, not a message board.

        • #64 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

          Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was a copy and paste. Perhaps the letter writer actually spelled perjury correctly and the mistake was made in posting?

          • #65 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

            Yes, I copied and pasted it here!

          • #66 by Jt on September 12, 2011

            No. I’m the person who originally pasted this into FFFF after copying it from the Observer website, where I found it after initially finding it in the print version. The typo is in the original. Which proves nothing whatsoever.

          • #67 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

            jt wrote: “The typo is in the original. Which proves nothing whatsoever.”

            That’s right, and I didn’t say it ‘proved’ anything, but in evaulating the truthfulness of the anonymous letter, I and some others here previously thought it was a little fishy that a law enforcement officer spelled perjury with a ‘g.’

            But hey, your standard of proof seems to be ‘if it fits my world view it must be true.’ :)

          • #68 by Xer on September 13, 2011

            Jt, sometimes errors can occur in type setting. Could explain the error in print, or when the individual wrote it, it could have been a typo. Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain and ‘g’ & ‘j’ are only separated by ‘h.’ People online make typos ALL the time. As said judging a person’s message by one incorrect letter is superficial thinking.

            btw, you’re okay for a librul in my book. Just sayin’ ;-)

      • #69 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

        This was published in the Fullerton Observer, early September edition. I simply copied and pasted it here! I am not a cop!

        • #70 by Jt on September 12, 2011

          Yeah, we both pasted it separately into different topics. Not trying to take credit for your copy and paste activities. :-)

    • #71 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      I know who wrote this. it’s all made up. He wasn’t a cop and was trying to get a rise out of the city.

      • #72 by Jt on September 12, 2011

        Give us one teeny tiny bit of evidence that either of those statements are true:
        1. that you know who wrote this. If you know, tell us.
        2. That its all made up.

        You like facts, remember? Go find some for us and get back to us with them.

        • #73 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

          I’ll use the same one that everyone uses here. He doesn’t want to put his name out there because he’s part of your group. He hates the cops and the city because of past dealings with them.

          • #74 by Jt on September 12, 2011

            How could you know this is true? Why would a member of “our group” TELL you that they fraudulently penned an anonymous letter to the Observer?

          • #75 by Xer on September 13, 2011

            Jt Asked: “Why would a member of “our group” TELL you that they fraudulently penned an anonymous letter to the Observer?”

            And Reality Is replied…. (crickets)

          • #76 by Xer on September 13, 2011

            You joked you don’t know when I’m being humorous, but I don’t know if you have ever told the truth here, and that’s no joke. I’ve certainly never caught you in a truth. If you actually are a police officer you are also a disappointment. That is also no joke. It IS sad.

      • #77 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        KNOW?
        How do you know it was a He?

    • #78 by Anon on September 20, 2011

      What is past is prologue!

      One for the books-

      Glad there is still some good police out there, but you got to watch your back and stay true to you – & the problem is who is in charge and who is making and signing asinine laws in California.

      The movie “Chinatown”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q34OSPw17o4

      not only shows what happened in California a very long time ago, but also predicts how California is run today what with secret investigations and secret trials hidden from the PUBLIC VIEW, AND WHAT WITH CALIFORNIA POLICE (AND OFFICIALS WHO ARE IMMUNE FROM SCRUTINY) HAVING THEIR OWN SPECIAL BILL OF RIGHTS

      http://www.kfiam640.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=JohnandKen&selected_podcast=JK0916114P_1316217919_4686.mp3

      Only 10 years ago CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS changed the law to allow the police to be exempt from scrutiny under the California Public Records Act, which means that none of the details of a police brutality or a police murder of a California citizen (resident or alien) are released until the eventual civil trial.

      AND AN UNSTABLE AND/OR CRIMINAL POLICE OFFICER IS NOT TAKEN OFF THE FORCE BUT IS MERELY REASSIGNED WHEN HE/OR SHE BECOMES PROBLEMATIC.

      EVEN FORMER LAPD POLICE CHIEF BILL BRATTON SAID THIS NEW LAW THAT IS ONLY IN CALIFORNIA IS ASININE.

      The exemption to police being scrutinized– also helps other California entities such as Universities and Colleges for their police to cover up criminal acts of non-consensual sexual assault occurring against students at the campus – by California State employed instructors. And the police then perpetrate police brutality for reporting police corruption in covering up a sexual assault complaint for the
      Community College district that is an arm of the State.

      The politics of that California exemption was part of the reward Gov. Gray Davis gave “law enforcement” after most of their organizations switched from supporting Republicans to supporting Democrats.

      Police agencies often lie/spin what took place. Their goal is to get people to stop paying attention to the event. But do not shut up and believe the authorities in the case of the Kelly Thomas murder case!!!!

      REMEMBER THAT THAT COULD BE YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONE –

      IF YOU LIVE IN CALIFORNIA –

      PLUS YOU WON’T GET ANY JUSTICE BECAUSE THE INJUSTICE THE SECRECY, THE COVER-UP IS BUILT IN.

      • #79 by Reality Is on September 20, 2011

        Good spin you out on it.

        The other reasons for it show the need to protect against abuse from the activists and liars.

        It has its pluses and minuses like everything else I guess. It’s not going anywhere anytime soon that’s for sure, even though I’m sure you think otherwise.

        • #80 by Anon on September 23, 2011

          Not sure if this is a response or what it is that is not going anywhere soon – but the day after you may notice that two Fullerton police officers got nailed for once, whether it sticks will be another question but they have been nailed for once. NO CAN SPIN HERE

  12. #81 by The Inquiring Mind on September 12, 2011

    “The question will be not so much about policy, the question will be whether or not police have a right to use reasonable and necessary force in performing a lawful duty.” (as in #13 above)

    Well, it seems like it IS about policy as well.
    There IS a policy and procedures manual for Fullerton P.D. most P.D.’s developed them after the Rodney King beating.

    If face beatings and chest taserings are prohibited in the manual than these employees explicitly broke from company policy. Things are headed towards the torture and mayhem definitions in that case. Plus, in the real world, most employees would be fired immediately if they deviated from the established P & P manual.

    Can a copy of the FPD policy manual be obtained thru freedom of information?

    • #82 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

      I have learned that it is against police use-of-force policy to strike a subject above the plane of the shoulders with a blunt object, UNLESS deadly force is necessary. It was clearly not necessary in this case!

    • #83 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      Lexipol. It’s used nationwide at a bunch of PDs.

  13. #84 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

    Not this time, this case is not the usual -Kronyism cover and duck-not this time.

    The line was crossed and people are mad as hell all over the globe.

    Not this time

  14. #85 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

    I like a lot of what Mr. Cabaniss has to say here, including wishing T-Rak well, he’s got an uphill battle regardless of the decision he makes. That being said, this last part was pure sophistry

    —“the DA called the killing of Kelly Thomas ‘a tragedy.’ It wasn’t. A fatal accident is a tragedy. A young man dying of cancer is a tragedy. A young man getting shot or stabbed or beaten to death is a crime.—

    What happened to Kelly Thomas was both a tragedy *and* a crime.

    But the DA is supposed to be taking an objective look at what happened, and he’s charged with determining the nature of the crime, if any. With this in mind, the DA must choose his words carefully prior to bringing charges, otherwise, and as an attorney himself Mark Cabaniss certainly understands this, a gifted defense attorney before a sympathetic jury will have a field day with the DA’s quotes. Think Johnny Cochran and ‘rush to judgment’ in the Simpson trial. T-Rak must carefully avoid giving what will almost surely be a cop sympathetic OC jury anything to hang its hat on in letting the cops walk.

    • #86 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

      Rackauckas will do as he is instructed by the Schroeders. Pure and simple political calculations – that’s what he will hang his hat on. Your hero worship is pathetic. There’s no there, there.

    • #87 by Xer on September 13, 2011

      A tragedy for the Thomas family, yes, but sheer terror and unimaginably horrific torture for Kelly. It truly boggles the mind!

      The point Cabaniss was making is your favorite DA was “marginalizing” Kelly’s murder, to use a word you like to toss around.

      I doubt you’re correct the OC jury will be automatically sympathetic to the FPD 6 this time. What they [the six murderers] did is unconscionable and unjustifiable. Continuing to beat a subdued, UNCONSCIOUS subject in the head with the butt of a taser, and knee-dropping his face and throat, despite all Free-Spirit, My-Ass-Reality-Cakes says, cannot be justified to rational human beings. I don’t even believe other cops buy it, except the apologists here and the union goons.

      T-Raque seems to be taking a page from Obama’s playbook of making concessions before anyone even asks for them. That is no way to win a trial. To all appearances T-Raque wants to NOT prosecute. If he does it will be because the public forced his hand. Just my opinion? Yeah, but it sure seems to fit the evidence.

      • #88 by Jefferson on September 13, 2011

        Right on.

      • #89 by Reality Is on September 13, 2011

        As is the standard here for you, Xer, and others, you make things up to make people buy into them.

        I have never said I felt what the cops MAY have done was justified. I have always said that if it’s shown they did wrong, then they need to be punished. I have always said that you or I nor anyone knows exactly what happened and there are many times in fights that deadly force is justified.

        Yes, I know you are expert in all areas of life, but you don’t know exactly what happened in this fight. You formed your opinion off what you think you know, and you may be right. But you don’t know exactly what happened, and that’s what me and others in the community are waiting before before we make the decision you have already made.

        So you say your opinions and feelings, but you don’t need to say mine or anyone else’s. You may think you are God, but that’s only in your eyes.

        • #90 by Xer on September 14, 2011

          “…if it’s shown they did wrong,”

          “…there are many times in fights that deadly force is justified.”

          Let’s just take that right there: “if it’s shown they did wrong…”

          But, HOW could they have done wrong if Kelly was fighting with them? Then of course they would have to defend themselves against Kelly’s FIGHTING. And, there is the matter you stubbornly ignore. The first few weeks after Kelly died many people wrote on these blogs of their own personal experiences of him. They said he didn’t panhandle, and he was nonviolent. None of them said they ever saw evidence Kelly was on drugs, but some expressed the opinion he never showed any signs of it when they were with him. Some wrote very specifically about how they talked to him numerous times and NEVER felt any threat from him whatsoever (one fellow even said his girlfriend felt no threat from Kelly either). Yet you choose to believe the SIX armed, armored officers MAY have been in such dire threat for their own safety it was “justified” for them to employ “deadly force” on Kelly Thomas to protect themselves?

          Several people described here what a mellow guy Kelly was. If Kelly was ‘fighting’ with the FPD 6 he must have been fighting for his life. IF they did wrong? They tased him six times, once directly over the heart. They smashed his face and head into the pavement and concrete curb repeatedly until his face and head was a bloody mass, and they beat him in the head with the butt of a taser until he was unconscious. and they CONTINUED beating him until he was in a coma and then brain dead. How can you doubt they did anything wrong when they brutally killed a man known for being peaceful? How could a 135 pound malnourished man with a long-term reputation of being nice suddenly become a raging super villain threatening six tiny frightened policemen? According to several witnesses the most threatening thing Kelly did was try and escape, and then only after one ‘officer’ said something to him that appeared to frighten him badly.

          “…I have always said that you or I nor anyone knows exactly what happened…”

          Have you ever been to the moon? If not, then how do you know US astronauts went there? You weren’t there yourself to witness it with your own eyes. Perhaps they lied? Perhaps the footage of our men on the moon was all shot in a giant water tank. If you weren’t there why would you believe it ever happened?

          I was not at Hiroshima either when the nuclear bombs fell, but I have been to the memorial there, seen the photographs, read the wall plaques and seen the films. I don’t KNOW for a FACT a nuclear bomb was ever dropped there. It may have just been a conspiracy perpetrated by the Japanese, but, yes, I believe it happened because of testimonies, photographs, and film footage. Same way I believe Kelly was killed by six brutal psychopaths because I saw some videos and heard some testimonies. I also heard Kelly calling out he was sorry, and crying out to God for help and for his father to save him. Like a small child! No, it is just too much to swallow a man begging for mercy was fighting with such determined ferocity it required the six ‘officers’ apply “deadly force” to subdue him, especially when he was already face down on the ground with one arm pinned under him and at least two cops on his back. You just ask for more imagination than I have.

          I also believe if the video held by the DA exonerated the FPD it would have been released to local and International media immediately! And the FPD would be crowing about their victory over a manical madman. The FACT the video is being held from public view is as much as an admission of guilt of the FPD 6.

          So, no, you were not there, and I was not there and we did not see Kelly murdered with our own eyes, but other people saw it, lots of other people saw it, not just one or two. Many more witnesses saw Kelly’s murder than the six people who actually committed the crime, yet you will not entertain the possibility they saw what they saw? You insist there is no proof the murderers murdered unless and until the DA presses charges. Will you even then?

          “As is the standard here for you, Xer, and others, you make things up to make people buy into them…. …So you say your opinions and feelings, but you don’t need to say mine or anyone else’s.”

          I don’t need to know any more about your feelings or opinions than what you have been writing here for the last month. You’ve said plenty, and you’ve said it repeatedly. Nothing I said was “made up.” All I did was paraphrase it since not having an eidetic memory, i could not quote it verbatim.

          “You may think you are God, but that’s only in your eyes.”

          Accusing people you disagree with of thinking they are God it is an admission you have no rational argument to present. IF I were God, Kelly Thomas would be alive, and those six murdering apes would be in prison for attempted murder. If I only ‘thought’ I were God I would be psychotic. Since I’ve never beat anyone to death that description doesn’t fit me either does it? Though is would seem to aptly apply to the six cops who murdered Kelly Thomas.

          As to your expressed opinion, “IF it’s SHOWN the six cops did wrong they need to be punished,” what do you think they “MAY” have done unjustified, and what do you think their punishment should be? Why not tell me in your own words?

          • #91 by fullerton lover on September 14, 2011

            I admire how well you convey that spirit of yours into meaningful words Xer and I appreciate you sharing them with us all here on the FFFF blog which has become almost like a second family to me.

          • #92 by Xer on September 14, 2011

            That was a kind heart-felt thing you wrote, fullerton lover. Thank you.

            Yes, what you said about FFFF is shared. I too feel a connection with people here, even the ones we disagree with, like ‘Reality Is,’ because they provide us ripe opportunities to put our nebulous thoughts into words fit for communication. It is difficult not to believe deep down, ‘he’ actually means well too, in his own way. Just don’t tell ‘him’ I said so. ;-)

            atb

  15. #93 by peanut on September 12, 2011

    I hope that you are right, but be prepared for the worst. He will only do what Mike and Susan allow him to do, that is ALL he will be allowed to do, wait and see!

  16. #94 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

    Oh well, it’s pointless to speculate about all of this. Let’s just wait and see what the hell happens.

    • #95 by Reality Is on September 13, 2011

      They won’t do that here. People here say jump, they are ordering the world to jump now!

  17. #96 by van get it da artiste on September 12, 2011

    this is an excellent argument to remove OC DA Rackaucus from this case because it shows Rackaucus’ habit of giving a pass to law enforcement. The OC DA must prosecute to his or her fullest extent the law. yet, Rackaucus has set a pattern of not punishing criminal conduct from law enforcement.Is there a precedent for removing an obviously biased district attorney?

    • #97 by Jt on September 12, 2011

      This is the aspect of our criminal justice system that is the most troubling. The DA is responsible for prosecuting any criminal activity by any law enforcement officials within his jurisdiction, but depends on those very same officials for the successful prosecution of every other case they file.

      Explain to me how that can NOT almost invariably result in a miscarriage of justice.

      Give me an example of a DA ANYWHERE who built their reputation on thoroughly prosecuting law enforcement officers who committed crimes.

      The fact that the DA is an elected position and that cop unions are allowed to contribute to their campaigns just makes it more unlikely that justice will be served in this or any similar cases.

      I don’t know the solution to this overall problem. But it certainly is a big problem.

      • #98 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

        I see where the conflict can appear. Don’t the DA’s office have specific units just for city government, police, political corruption or abuse? They have no problem filing charges on anyone in those units. I still go back to show me some cases that were investigated and the DA refused to file charges on cops. I know numerous cops the that have had charges filed on them, on and off duty. It was done without an issue, and the people were fired. It just seems like people on here think there are cops breaking laws daily on duty. If that is so, bring up the cases and show they weren’t prosecuted correctly and bring them to the AG. That will get the DA out quickly. I don’t think the OC DA is any different than any other county DA in terms of police prosecution. I just think that you have to have police misconduct, law breaking, to prosecute and I don’t think that happens as much as everyone on here thinks.

        • #99 by Xer on September 13, 2011

          You also don’t think they killed Kelly Thomas, You don’t think his family cared for him, and tried to take care of him. You don’t think six cops were involved. You don’t think the witnesses know what they saw. You don’t think the city’s video proves any crime was committed. You don’t think the six murderers are murderers. You don’t think they will be prosecuted. Basically… you don’t think.

          • #100 by Reality Is on September 13, 2011

            Another statement by God on how people feel. Maybe stick to your own opinions instead of others? You are so perfect.

            Kelly Thomas died. You can’t tell me how everything happened or what Kelly did. You think you know, I’m waiting for the reports and the DA to tell us. I know his family didn’t care for him, that’s my opinion based on the facts I know. I know his dad was a loser back at the OCSD and got fired. I know 6 cops weren’t involved in the fight. I know what witnesses saw that have spoken out already. There haven’t been that many that have spoken out on seeing specifics. You rely on the bus video of the people walking on, and in the end you will see that they didn’t even see details, just a struggle and fight. The video is part of the evidence and it will be used to piece all of the seconds together as to what happened. I don’t think all 6 will be prosecuted. I think more than you think, you think you know everything and you think you are God. You will be proven wrong in the end, and you will never admit you are wrong because that’s how God’s operate.

          • #101 by Xer on September 14, 2011

            “I know his family didn’t care for him, that’s my opinion based on the facts I know.”

            You know nothing! Who bestowed on you the insight to know what was in the heart of Ron Thomas? Do you have a family member with schizophrenia? Unless you have you cannot possibly know how hard Ron tried to help his son. Though inexperienced with schizophrenia I’ve struggled with someone I cared about suffering depression and alcoholism, and alcoholism IS a disease.

            My younger brother suffered undiagnosed clinical depression for years and in his early thirties began self-medicating with alcohol. That was a fatal mistake because he became addicted to the alcohol. The twin demons were indefatigable. After twenty-five years fighting to keep him alive, death won out. The constant battle, days and nights, weekdays, weekends, and holidays exhausted me year after year after year. There was never a day off from worry and it contributed to my heart disease. I lay awake many MANY nights praying for his safety, praying he would forsake the bottle and stay on his medication.

            Finally I had to allow him to go fend for himself in order to conserve my own strength for self-preservation. Within a year he was dead. For decades I did my best, but it was never enough. No one can make choices for another. It doesn’t matter that it almost killed me too, the feelings of guilt never leave me alone. I can relate to Ron Thomas in a way you cannot begin to fathom. YOU know NOTHING about Ron’s relationship with his son. But your judgemental egotism tells you, you do, and you ‘share’ your self-anointed ‘wisdom’ with us. So, kind of you to spread rank ignorance with the blissful belief in your own great understanding of the Thomas family’s travails.

            Your opinions are colored by your misplaced feelings of brotherhood with six as yet uncharged criminals. “There but for the grace of God, goes you,” eh? Unless you too are a cold-blooded murderer you are wasting your sympathy on brutal apes instead of giving it a grieving family who actually deserve it.

            Sigh… No, I do not know everything. The more I’ve learned in life the more ignorant I’ve realized myself. One evident difference between us: you’ve yet to learn enough to perceive your own ignorance.

      • #102 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

        Police unions have too much power and influence!!

    • #103 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      Prove that he has that pattern, and you might get some support. Babbling about it as if it’s true won’t work. Bring up some good cases that he refused to press charges on. I’m sure if you can show that he did it on purpose and with the intent to protect, you will get some support. Otherwise, he’s not going anywhere until 2014 and will probably get reelected then.

  18. #104 by another anonymous person on September 12, 2011

    very good question…

  19. #105 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

    Just emailed to my assemblyman, Don Wagner, re the Kelly Thomas case
    asking him why no one has heard a peep out of him regarding this? I know it was in another jurisdiction but so? he can at least comment like the City Council in Beverly hills did.
    I asked him-
    ” what about the citizens of other communities? what do we do if we are met by police? assume the fetal position? what? we want to hear from you, you, you.”

  20. #106 by LeRoy Murray on September 12, 2011

    Excellent article, I’ve been saying it should be prosecuted under the Calif. Felony Murder Rule, using mayham as the underlying felony for some time. If there’s a way to get the DA replaced because of conflict of interest, which there is, lets get someone like Mr. Cabaniss in there. But, I would be curious as to his record on prosecuting cops. We know what Mr. Rackaucus’ is, never been there, never done that.

  21. #107 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    What is the written operating policy of Admin leave??
    Are these cops allowed to communicate or in any way or place, interface with any other city employees or contractors?
    Sure hope the Orange County Grand Jury is maintaining a critical eye on all these elected officials and associates.
    The public citizens are being delivered a broad spectrum of biased, preferential services that are reprehensible in any contractual relationship. Those persons that are in supervisory, management,and oversight positions must be held accountable…

    • #108 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

      Are you a preacher?

      Ok. We agree on one thing then. We actually don’t know how Ron felt prior to the death and we never will. I just know that he wanted nothing to do with Kelly when contacted by police prior times and a restraining order was obtained to keep him away from the family. You are right, like always and dare I ever say otherwise, that he may have still loved him, cared for him, and wanted Kelly back in his life. Who knows. You know I feel and I know how you feel, and that’s why disagree on so much related to this topic.

      Rank, egotism beliefs. You share yours in a strong way and so do others. Yours mean nothing more than mine or others, even though you think so.

      Yes you love to put words in my mouth. I’m used to it. I’ve said all along it’s not up to you and not up to me what happens. If they did wrong they will be punished. I could care less. I don’t believe in justice as you do where if it appears bad it is bad and hang em on the spot. We are different just like everyone is different.

      You just called me an ape. I’m not black if that’s what you were inferring. I’m white. I’m smart. I love the UsA.

      Xer :
      “I know his family didn’t care for him, that’s my opinion based on the facts I know.”
      You know nothing! Who bestowed on you the insight to know what was in the heart of Ron Thomas? Do you have a family member with schizophrenia? Unless you have you cannot possibly know how hard Ron tried to help his son. Though inexperienced with schizophrenia I’ve struggled with someone I cared about suffering depression and alcoholism, and alcoholism IS a disease.
      My younger brother suffered undiagnosed clinical depression for years and in his early thirties began self-medicating with alcohol. That was a fatal mistake because he became addicted to the alcohol. The twin demons were indefatigable. After twenty-five years fighting to keep him alive, death won out. The constant battle, days and nights, weekdays, weekends, and holidays exhausted me year after year after year. There was never a day off from worry and it contributed to my heart disease. I lay awake many MANY nights praying for his safety, praying he would forsake the bottle and stay on his medication.
      Finally I had to allow him to go fend for himself in order to conserve my own strength for self-preservation. Within a year he was dead. For decades I did my best, but it was never enough. No one can make choices for another. It doesn’t matter that it almost killed me too, the feelings of guilt never leave me alone. I can relate to Ron Thomas in a way you cannot begin to fathom. YOU know NOTHING about Ron’s relationship with his son. But your judgemental egotism tells you, you do, and you ‘share’ your self-anointed ‘wisdom’ with us. So, kind of you to spread rank ignorance with the blissful belief in your own great understanding of the Thomas family’s travails.
      Your opinions are colored by your misplaced feelings of brotherhood with six as yet uncharged criminals. “There but for the grace of God, goes you,” eh? Unless you too are a cold-blooded murderer you are wasting your sympathy on brutal apes instead of giving it a grieving family who actually deserve it.
      Sigh… No, I do not know everything. The more I’ve learned in life the more ignorant I’ve realized myself. One evident difference between us: you’ve yet to learn enough to perceive your own ignorance.

    • #109 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

      Admin leave means investigation and they are ordered not to talk about the case with anyone.

  22. #110 by another anonymous person on September 12, 2011

    they are talking about kelly on kfi right now, 12 pm

  23. #111 by another anonymous person on September 12, 2011

    and the tkts, bill caroll
    they are going to post the tkt video on their site

  24. #112 by peanut on September 12, 2011

    The two OC sheriffs that ordered the hit on Chanberlain at the Theo Lacy facility are the most recent. One is still an OC sheriff, and the other retired. The next one that comes to mind is Carona, Haidle, and Jarimillo. The Brea officer that shot the boy in his car because he SUSPECTED him of attempted robbery. It is out there, if Mike and Susan say no, then no it is.

  25. #113 by Vernon Dozier on September 12, 2011

    Question: If charges are filed, will the City be responsible for the cost of the officers’ criminal defense lawyers?

    • #114 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      No. They have their own fund. They will spend millions out of the fund for the best lawyers around. It has got many cops off over the years.

      • #115 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

        One goal of the protesters shoyuld be to empty the FPOA bank account.

        • #116 by Jail Time on September 12, 2011

          Excellent idea. The recall campaign will be a big hit, too as the crooked cops spend a fortune to keep the Three Blind Geezer-puppets in office.

          • #117 by Vernon Dozier on September 12, 2011

            Interesting point.

            I would think any FPOA endorsement from here on out is morally equivalent to poison. Do you think Jones, McKinley, and Bankhead are foolish enough to side with FPOA? Probably.

        • #118 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

          FPOA doesn’t have as much money as you would think…but there are multiple statewide police officers associations…and I’m sure they would all pitch in

      • #119 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

        What do you think the odds are that they get John Barnett? That guy loves these kinds of cases because most of the time it’s like shooting fish in a barrel, but I wonder how he would do prosecuting ‘em? My guess is he’d be Oh-fer whatever.

  26. #120 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    Vernon you raise a good question, if they are charged with felonies, I don’t see how they could have status for defense by their employer. They may sue (the city) for restitution after the case resolution.
    Let their brothers in blue and their agent, the FPOA pay their legal bill.
    It is self evident that these cops have not represented the citizens of Fullerton in good faith or with the intent thereof.
    Where is the big chief, it didn’t take him long to abandon the ship. Maybe he is in close consultation with Bankhead and Mckinley seeking divine guidance!!!

  27. #121 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    Has the city attorney challenged the chiefs’(Sellers) health status?
    With the situation being what it is, this turkey should be put through the tests by two independent doctors to ascertain a more valid and representative health report.
    Him and the doctor may be liable for FRAUD.
    Does he have DMV disabled status…??doubtful

    • #122 by Ken on September 12, 2011

      Are you kidding ? The Fullerton DA is colluting with the rest of them. He wouldn’t do such thing to his pal.

  28. #123 by ken on September 12, 2011

    15 years is enough. Plus given his track record of given preferential treatment (I am sure this has a lot to due with police’s union endorsment & donation/bribe money) to police misconduction cases, it’s time to vote for someone else. A successful recall would be a perfect & sweet justice but I doubt it. So, everyone remember to vote him out in next the election.

  29. #124 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

    All it is is a police endorsement when it comes to politics in cities like Fullerton. Police department’s can’t endorse, so the unions endorse people they like. About 50% of people endorsed even get into office. It’s not a bunch of money either. Look up the donations by the unions to politics, it’s not a bunch of money. It doesn’t come from the unions directly either, it comes from their registered PACs. In Fullerton from here on out, I’m sure politicians won’t even look for the police endorsement. It will be one of those endorsements that is too far on one side or the other.

    Vernon Dozier :
    Interesting point.
    I would think any FPOA endorsement from here on out is morally equivalent to poison. Do you think Jones, McKinley, and Bankhead are foolish enough to side with FPOA? Probably.

    • #125 by Jail Time on September 12, 2011

      Wrong. The Three Blind Mice touted their support from the police on their half-assed response to the recall statement.

      The PAC is funded by mandatory contributions from the cops. Defending the Three Blind Mice is going to cost them plenty.

    • #126 by Anonymous on September 12, 2011

      If I remember the math I did correctly, and I’m sure I am within a few percentage points, Don Bankhead received 24% of his campaign expenses from FPOA and McKinly received 17% of his…that isn’t a small chunk

  30. #127 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    BTW that doctor is required to file a report to the DMV if Sellers condition impairs his demeanor or deportment in any that may affect the driving rationale ability.
    Has he reported his updated medical condition to his various insurance carriers?

  31. #128 by JudasPriest on September 12, 2011

    Lexipol writes the use-of-force policy for Fullerton,and hundreds of other cities.Lexipol is owned by the lawyer who told Mr. Thomas his son was not a rocket scientist. His name is Bruce Praett. I have nothing against gay people,but for you information Mr. Praett is gay,and lives with two little dogs that were imported into this country by CHIEF SELLERS!!!

    • #129 by One for the books on September 12, 2011

      Apparently, the cops that beat Kelly were not PhD’s either!!

  32. #130 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    Could Sellers be qualifying himself for a backseat ride in an FPD black & white.
    Make that an SUV, he may have company!!!

  33. #131 by ziggy on September 12, 2011

    Chicago Sun-times
    front page-Today
    U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald: If you don’t report corruption, you are the problem.Also, a husband and wife found dead Sunday inside their southwest suburban home died from blunt force injuries, Monday autopsies showed, and their deaths have been ruled homicides. Within 48 hours,an autopsy and a conclusion.

    • #132 by Jail Time on September 12, 2011

      But the suspects weren’t cops.

      When they are then all the rules of reason are thrown out the window as one group of cops “investigates” another, all the time knowing full well that sooner or later the roles could easily be reversed.

  34. #133 by 3sheets.tv on September 12, 2011

    Anybody remember “Celebrity Deathmatch?”
    I’d love to see Garo Versus T-Rack
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbU3SaEU73Y

    • #134 by Anonymous on September 13, 2011

      DO IT

  35. #135 by praying about this too on September 12, 2011

    Just a reminder here for those bloggers who pray, to be praying for what we do want to come to pass: justice for Kelly, those brutal police off the payroll, and the recall to be successful. Meanwhile, I hope you all had the opportunity for some laughs by viewing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqvijdxnHxI
    (i could be a cop with my math skills!)

  36. #136 by 440 Dodge on September 12, 2011

    Does not matter to the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ or this writer if the Fullerton tape depicts an assault where 6 police officers accidentally, or otherwise, killed a suspect while being detained. The fact happens to be that the entire spectacle was entirely unnecessary AND EXCESSIVE by any benchmark in a civilized society.

    Every U.S. citizen has a basic right to be safe from harm while in police custody, and this issue will be the central focus of the DOJ’s federal case if the State fails in its attempt to prosecute the six Fullerton goons that were entrusted, but failed, to protect the public at large.

    If the State and the Fed’s fail in their efforts to prosecute this case to any satisfaction, then, as John F. Kennedy once said: “If peaceful revolution is impossible, then violent revolution is inevitable.” Our civil servants must to be accountable for their actions.

  37. #137 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    Went to the LEXIPOL.COM website, if the FPD has been utilizing this training service, there is a log of access and usage.
    An audit of time card charges can verify if a training schedule has been maintained and what personnel have participated.
    Timecards provide a very good record of claim of past and present activity and assignment.
    So,a claim of inadequate or substandard training may be refutable.
    Is timecard falsification another window of view into FRAUD by FPB personnel??
    There are about dozen audit cross checks for timecard accuracy and falsification.
    BTW, what is your charge number and log in entry for your time spent at that cafe near the corner of Commonwealth and Basque???

  38. #138 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    I will state something that the good and well intentioned Dr. Jones may agree with;
    Generally, infections start from one or a colony of infectious cells and the same analogy may be applied to the onset of cancer. Both can and may be fatal unless proper treatment is proscribed and administered in a credibile and well defined plan to promote the restoration of good health to the patient.
    Dr. Jones, Mr. Bankhead, and Mr. Mckinley, all of you have dedicated many years to public services in our country and the city of Fullerton from which many people have benefited.
    I have read your refutations in the recall petitions and I would like to see you all come together as a surgical team and extricate yourselves from this entanglement.
    Speaking as a senior citizen;;
    Expend the remaining energies of your lives enjoying them with your families.

  39. #139 by Christian on September 12, 2011

    I just spoke to the Dept. DA. I asked about the case and the officers implicated and they told me not to call them.

    I guess maybe they got a phone call or memo went instructing not to talk to “media”. Now I’m “media”?! Doubtful.

  40. #140 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

    Gentlemen,
    Dr. Jones, Mr. Bankhead, and Mr. Mckinley

    A faux pas and rude of me,

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

  41. #141 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

    This part of Mark Cabaniss’ analysis struck me as making no sense whatsoever:

    –”…the DA has set a pattern of preemptive surrender, conceding points to the (possible) criminal defense even before any charges are filed, indeed, even before the investigation is complete.

    For example, the Orange County DA said, HERE, that he had seen the unreleased surveillance tape, and had seen no evidence of intent to kill. Legally speaking, this is an inane non sequitur, equivalent to saying that he had seen the tape, and seen no evidence that anyone was left-handed, or 5 foot six—it simply has no legal significance to the case…”—

    Okay, then the question becomes, if the DA’s statement has no ‘legal significance to the case,’ then how can it also be a matter of ‘conceding points… (to the) defense even before any charges are filed?’

    That’s a pretty major contradiction for an attorney to make.

    • #142 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

      THEY KNOW THAT THEY WILL NEVER GET A JURY TO LET THESE COPS OFF THE HOOK. THEIR GOOSE IS COOKED.

  42. #143 by We Are All One on September 12, 2011

    440 Dodge: “If the State and the Fed’s fail in their efforts to prosecute this case to any satisfaction, then, as John F. Kennedy once said: “If peaceful revolution is impossible, then violent revolution is inevitable.” Our civil servants must to be accountable for their actions.”

    This.

  43. #144 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    SINCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HAIDLE, HE ACCUSED AN LASD UNDER SHERIFF OF HAVING SEX WITH GIRLS IN THAILAND. THIS WAS IN AN FBI DEPOSITION, WHY DIDN’T THIS EVER GO BEYOND JUST AN ALLEGATION IF THE FBI WAS PURSUING IT?

  44. #145 by We Are All One on September 12, 2011

    levelthefield :
    I will state something that the corrupt and self-serving Dr. Jones may agree with;
    Generally, infections start from one or a colony of infectious cells and the same analogy may be applied to the onset of cancer. Both can and may be fatal unless proper treatment is proscribed and administered in a credibile and well defined plan to promote the restoration of good health to the patient.
    Dr. Jones, Mr. Bankhead, and Mr. Mckinley, all of you have dedicated many years to corrupt behavior in our country and the city of Fullerton from which many people have suffered.
    I have read your refutations in the recall petitions and I would like to see you all come together as a surgical team and extricate yourselves from positions.
    Speaking as a (delusional) senior citizen;;
    Expend the remaining energies of your lives behind bars.

    Fixed it for you.

    • #146 by concernedCanadian on September 16, 2011

      spelling mistake, stop using American and use English.
      behavior is behaviour

      :)

  45. #147 by We Are All One on September 12, 2011

    *your positions.

  46. #148 by iron maiden on September 12, 2011

    JudasPriest :Lexipol writes the use-of-force policy for Fullerton,and hundreds of other cities.Lexipol is owned by the lawyer who told Mr. Thomas his son was not a rocket scientist. His name is Bruce Praett. I have nothing against gay people,but for you information Mr. Praett is gay,and lives with two little dogs that were imported into this country by CHIEF SELLERS!!!

    Gee, your screenname, Judas Priest, is quite appropriate. Isn’t Rob Halford gay?

  47. #149 by whitey bulger on September 12, 2011

    fedupwithmorons :
    THEY KNOW THAT THEY WILL NEVER GET A JURY TO LET THESE COPS OFF THE HOOK. THEIR GOOSE IS COOKED.

    BE REAL A COP IS CAUGHT COVERING UP HIS OWN ACCIDENTAL SHOOTING AND THEY DEAL WITH THIS INTERNAL EMBARASSMENT QUICKLY BY DECLARING HIM MENTALLY ILL.
    WHY ISN’T THE D A CARRYING OUT AN EXTENDED INVESTIGATION HERE?

  48. #150 by whitey bulger on September 12, 2011

    iron maiden :

    JudasPriest :Lexipol writes the use-of-force policy for Fullerton,and hundreds of other cities.Lexipol is owned by the lawyer who told Mr. Thomas his son was not a rocket scientist. His name is Bruce Praett. I have nothing against gay people,but for you information Mr. Praett is gay,and lives with two little dogs that were imported into this country by CHIEF SELLERS!!!

    Gee, your screenname, Judas Priest, is quite appropriate. Isn’t Rob Halford gay?

    IF TRUE YOU PEOPLE NEED TO INVESTIGATE AND RUN THIS ANIMAL OUT OF FULLERTON.

  49. #151 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    MAYBE LEXIPO SHOULD BE A PARTY IN THE LAW SUIT RON THOMAS FILES AGAINST FULLERTON?

    Lexipol LLC
    (949) 389-0439
    6 Liberty, Aliso Viejo, CA 92656 Get directions
    Cross Streets: Between Pursuit and Aliso Viejo Pky

  50. #153 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

    Another problem with Mr. Cabaniss’ analysis:

    —”Simply put, the use of the phrase “excessive force” might be seen as an attempt to hide the truth…

    …Presumably the DA knows that the phrase “excessive force” isn’t in the Penal Code. So why is he using it?”

    Umm, Mr. Cabaniss, he didn’t, the reporter did. Note the use of quotes in the passage within the article cited:

    *The D.A. said he did not want to speculate on possible criminal charges — whether they be manslaughter or excessive force — until “all the evidence is in.”*

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/09/local/la-me-fullerton-death-20110809

    • #154 by Jefferson on September 12, 2011

      Quit blowing the crooked Rackauckas. His department has never done anything but back up the cops. His slimy investigators are all retreads from local police departments, a big % from Fullerton.

      • #155 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

        ALL THE SAME,TIRED BURNED OUT COPS BEING DA INVESTIGATORS.

      • #156 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

        Wow, it’s 7th grade all over again. :)

        So tell me sir, when Cabaniss got his quotes mixed up were you really that impressed? :)

  51. #157 by This is just sad on September 12, 2011

    Sad.

  52. #158 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    There is a listing for kenton Hampton in Pasadena.

    • #159 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

      yes

      • #160 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

        Of course, that was a fkn month ago.

  53. #161 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

    I love Mr Cabaness articles and find no problem with any of them-especially when he says in one of his articles that the FDP 6 could all be looking at the death penalty-yes.

    • #162 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

      Again, of course, he’s telling you what you want to hear, even if his analysis is full of holes wide enough to drive a truck though. LOL

      • #163 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

        Oh and ugh, umm, it’s Cabaniss with an ‘i’ genius. :)

        • #164 by Jefferson on September 12, 2011

          I may have missed it. Did you ever explain your thought on Rackauckas letting Seller’s best friend conduct the “independent” investigation?

        • #165 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

          You can’t read too much into what attorney’s write on these blogs. They don’t learn criminal investigation, crime scene investigation or much of anything useful when putting together an investigation.

          Lawyers learn case law and that’s about it. They might learn case analysis and some critical thinking skills. But, unless they have some sort of undergrad degree in criminal justice, they don’t understand the point of establishing how the case started. They don’t understand the context of the point from a law enforcement perspective unless they were cops once.

          Lawyers come in after the case in chief has been put together, they look for holes in the case and any defenses.

  54. #166 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    Sometimes, you have to shame the shameless!

  55. #167 by 9c1copcar on September 12, 2011

    FEDUP,

    Am I shameless too?

    • #168 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

      YES, YOU ARE A SHAMELESS HUSSY!

  56. #169 by 9c1copcar on September 12, 2011

    Well, 5 days to go, and I am already chomping at the bit. I cannot wait to get to the rally. I do hope the hapless FPD tries something new this time. I have heard of incompetence in a dept. before, but MAN ALIVE, they take that term to a new level.

    • #170 by Xer on September 12, 2011

      Yeah, guess you could say they take the Fullerton Cake. 8-)

  57. #171 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/123080-Setting-the-record-straight-on-force-continuums/

    PDF version with photos: Setting the Record Straight on Force Continuums

    Use-of-Force Continuum. Control Continuum. Level-of-Force Model. Subject Resistance Matrix. They go by different names, but basically all mean the same thing. They are names for the gradations of force police officers are trained to use when meeting resistance. But is there a movement within police agencies to remove force continuums from their use-of-force policies? It appears so.

    It seems I’ve been asked that question more than a few times over the last several months. A check with a few other use-of-force trainers revealed that they’ve been asked the same question. And while fielding questions from officers and agencies regarding use-of-force is a big part of our jobs as trainers and consultants, it was a little disconcerting to have that question asked of me while on the witness stand testifying in a use-of-force matter recently.

    During direct examination I was outlining the concept of progression of force and identifying the specifics within each major force field, the gradations of presence from a single officer up through an entire tactical team; and dialogue from search talk up through loud forceful commands, all the way up through deadly force and firearms. The direct testimony went very smoothly. During cross-examination, I was asked, “Aren’t use-of-force continuum’s obsolete in most modern agencies?” I’m not quite sure where this attorney was getting his information, but it’s a pretty good bet he had never heard of a force or control continuum before this case.

    If there is any doubt about the value of a use-of-force (or control) continuum, it is that in front of a jury, a judge, or a civilian review board, pictures really are worth a thousand words. A properly constructed control continuum provides a clear method for educating civilians in understanding that your force decision was the most reasonable one, based on the threat you were facing; the ability to diagram the standard progression of force from presence, dialogue, empty-hand control, chemical, electronic or impact weapons, up through deadly force, including why skipping steps based on special circumstances are sometimes necessary.

    In addition to educating civilians in police use-of-force matters, one of the other benefits of a force continuum is that it provides a framework for officers when they have to justify and articulate their force applications. It gives them the ability to point out where the procedure or technique they used sits on the matrix, relative to others, in the level of intensity. It also allows the officer to describe his relative strengths versus the suspect’s, providing some structure to his force decision.

    From what I’ve been able to glean from interviews with force trainers, it appears that more than a few departments are trying to maintain the concept of progression of force, including the wording and the language of the specific gradations of force, but opting to throw out the actual “action/reaction” diagram, and substituting the words “reasonable force” coupled with a range of options, including the option of retreating in the face of a deadly threat.

    Instead of defining what force is appropriate for their officers to use when dealing with resistive subjects, some agencies are now tasking their officers with selecting their force option from the broad, yet nonspecific category of intermediate weapons before escalating up to deadly force. However, the problem is if their choice doesn’t meet with the outside (read civilian) world’s view of reasonableness, they’re in essence hung out to dry. Simply put, without some type of schematic, diagram or matrix outlining the action/reaction concept and identifying the manner or method of threat facing the officer, this type of open-ended policy might allow for a very subjective interpretation of reasonableness when reviewed by individuals who don’t have the training, experience or knowledge to comprehend the realities of the street. This can be further complicated when this broad subjective interpretation of reasonableness doesn’t allow for reasonable officer perception, or what the subject’s active level of resistance was, or what prior knowledge the officer had of this subject, or how much resistive tension the officer felt, or what the officer/subject factors were, or how hyped-up the subject was. By eliminating the standardized, easily read and understood checklist, or action/reaction matrix that describes exactly what the aggressive subject was doing, coupled with the reasonable officer responses to balance the equation, an officer’s use-of-force might now be deemed inappropriate or unreasonable without any objective criteria.

    Most recognized professionals in the police training or liability field accept a force (or control) continuum in some form, and virtually every attorney I’ve worked for in a use-of-force case has told me that the portion of my testimony where I outlined the control continuum’s reasonable progression of force was the most persuasive part of the evidence (as seen from the jury’s perspective) that they used to determine the reasonableness of the officer’s conduct.

    Officers need to know through training, what they can and can’t use from their tactical tool boxes in any force confrontation. If they’re taught about resistive tension and thousand-yard stares they need to be able to articulate and describe that. If they’re taught that active resistance requires decentralization techniques, they need to be able to point to it on the continuum. They not only need to be confident in their skills and abilities; they need to able to justify the intensity of their actions on a specific use-of-force matrix. They also need to know when they can escalate up a prescribed and specific control continuum from strong verbal commands straight to OC without having to first attempt empty-hand control techniques or leverage techniques with their baton when the officer/subject factors dictate higher levels of force. Furthermore, they need to be able to look at that progression of force diagram in their policy manuals so they can refresh themselves with it from time to time. Their attorney needs to be able to introduce that force matrix as evidence in their defense. Lastly, those officers need to know that their agency will back them up when they use those techniques appropriately.

    • #172 by levelthefield on September 12, 2011

      I really got tired of your class room bullshit that is all drawn out to sell a phony course to a bunch of fxkng idiots.
      You conveniently left out the scenario of a 240 lb,6ft4in cop wearing body armor crashing into a 135lb person. The broken ribs or collapsed lung of Kelly Thomas could have been caused by such an impact .
      What your training is actually teaching is how to take a confrontation and antagonize it to the highest level of physical combat against unarmed and disoriented individuals.
      Go get in the cage with a real mean fighting machine , your students are a bunch overweight cowardly bullies unleashed on the general public.

      • #173 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

        Oh ok my hero. God is among us. Praise him.

        • #174 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

          Yes, and God almighty is watching your every move!

        • #175 by Anonymous on September 14, 2011

          @Reality Is,
          You stated, “Oh ok my hero. God is among us. Praise him.”

          Here is another comment that you previously made to Xer “Another statement by God on how people feel. Maybe stick to your own opinions instead of others? You are so perfect.”

          And another comment by you to Xer, “You will be proven wrong in the end, and you will never admit you are wrong because that’s how God’s operate.”

          I can see from reading many of your comments, (the above comments are just a small sampling), that you are VERY confused about who G-D really is.

          Perhaps you feel that you are not accountable to ANYONE except G-d, so you don’t want to hear what any mere peons, (such as the public that you are sworn to protect and serve) have to say.

          Perhaps, you could go to your church and ask for help in figuring this conundrum out. Perhaps you could ask your clergy to explain to you exactly who G-d is, and what He says about murder. And, while you are at it, you might even start kneeling in prayer and asking for forgiveness for your evil ways. Ask G-d to give you some integrity, some honesty, some personal insight, and for much greater empathy, love and respect for those you “protect and serve.”

          However, I don’t hold out much hope that you, or your murderous pals, will participate in any soul searching or asking of forgiveness from a higher power, (also known as repentance).

          It is my theory that you are sociopaths, and that you are not capable of feeling guilt or remorse.

          I can very easily surmise from the amount of time that you spend on your constant justification of the murder of Kelly Thomas that you don’t believe in the Ten Commandments, especially the one that says. “Thou shalt not kill.”

          I guess it’s too much to ask of you and your fellow FPD officers, et al., to be more G-dly and to have G-dly respect and concern for human life and welfare, and I DON’T mean just feeling concern for your own pathetic selves.

          The reason for your lack of fear of G-D is obviously that YOU and your murdering thug friends believe that YOU are ALL G-ds.

          YOU THUGS believe that YOU have the power and the legal authority to murder someone with impunity, and you believe that you have the power to decide who lives and who dies.

          And, it is my opinion that from your comments that you believe that YOU are beyond reproach and that YOU are the only ones who have the right to an opinion of what is wrong or right, and that no one else has the right to demand change or accountability. YOU believe that no one could possibly be able to recognize a MURDER in cold blood when they see it. You believe that we need to wait for the complicit officers, or for your DREAM TEAM lawyer to tell us what to believe.

          Sorry, I don’t need to sit around and be silent until your corrupted, self-serving, perjuring, complicit THUG friends tell us that Black is really White.

          I don’t need to wait around for you to try to explain to me that what witnesses saw, was really just some “illusion” that no one but THUGS who wear badges could ever possibly understand.

          It will take a lot of evidence to convince me that BLACK murder is not just exactly what it seems to be-BLACK MURDER. You’re rhetoric and PAID PR time on this blog will not be able to do a whitewash job on Kelly’s cold blooded murder.

          Yes, I’ve made up my mind. I don’t believe that even seeing bits and pieces of the video that you might choose to show me, could change my mind. There are too many witnesses, and too much cover-up and too much blood of an innocent man on your hands to convince me otherwise.

          But, you are welcome to present your overwhelming evidence that 135 lb. unarmed, and mentally ill, Kelly, who was running away in FEAR, was such a danger to the six officers wearing bullet proof vests that he needed to be brutally and mercilessly beaten to death. Go ahead and try. I’m listening. And, you can forget the excited delirium crap. That is absolute crap and you know it, and we all know it. Try again.

          You seem to believe that the public outcry for justice and retribution for the willful assault, abuse, torture and slaughter of the weak and the innocent should not go unchallenged. I believe that you PROTESTETH TOO MUCH, and I believe that you are desperately trying to save your own hind end, or those of your complicit friends. In fact, you are probably PAID to spout your degrading rhetoric. You have no shame.

          YOU and your evil friends believe that you are untouchable because the laws are written to protect you, and because you have powerful friends in high places.

          You KNOW that you can, WITH NEARLY ABSOLUTE IMPUNITY, beat, maim, abuse, terrorize, rape, lie, plant evidence, basically ALMOST ANYTHNG GOES, INCLUDING MURDER, since your word is “golden” against very vulnerable victims who are targeted by power hungry, sociopathic, badge wearing THUGS.

          The victims are targeted because of their past records, or because of their social status, homelessness, or mental illness, etc. The powerful police unions will band together to spend millions to “get the cops off,” one way or another.

          Reality stated, “No. They have their own fund. They will spend millions out of the fund for the best lawyers around. It has got many cops off over the years.”

          The comment above goes to showcase the mentality of protectionism within the blue brotherhood, as well as the closed ranks and the blue wall of silence. They are not interested in honesty, integrity or protecting or serving the public. No, but they WILL make sure that they protect each other and that “they get many cops off over the years.”

          Whether, or not, justice was truly served, well, we all know that’s not really important, as long as the THUGS all stick together one for all, and get together and get their stories straight- after they watch the videos, and before they write, and re-write, and re-write, their reports. And, then they can ALL spend a couple of months hanging out together on paid vacation in a beach house in Newport Beach, while they practice over and over together their stories and statements, and commit their conspired verson of the events to their memories.

          The badge wearing THUGS know, all too well, that they “can get away with murder” because of the millions that will be spent by the union funds. They can spend their own money if they choose to, to defend themselves, of course.

          However, in my opinion, it is not the union money that is involved that is so appalling. No, it is more the sense of impunity and the arrogance and the lack of concern for integrity that is truly appalling. It is the corruption, the sense of entitlement, and the complete lack of morals by those who carry badges and weapons, and who have power over innocent, helpless citizens that is SO terrifying and appalling.

          Here it is again, spoken like a true THUG, “They will spend millions out of the fund for the best lawyers around. It has got many cops off over the years.”

          Unfortunately, you may be absolutely correct, since that has been the modus operandi for far, far too long.

          It WILL take a LOT of effort and money, and time to correct and root out the evil that is inherent in our criminal justice system, in law enforcement and in our government, and it won’t happen overnight. And, it won’t be easy.

          But, until real change does take place, don’t kid yourselves. You will all be making a grave miscalculation if you believe that citizens everywhere don’t know, or that they don’t highly suspect the prevalent extent of the corruption and cover-up that is going on.

          Don’t fool yourselves for even a moment by continuing to believe that most citizens don’t realize how evil and privileged and immune you are in your ability get away with murder, excessive force, torture, mayhem, abuse, and many other crimes.

          Don’t think for a moment that citizens will come to your aid, support you, respect you, or trust you. You have all, finally, truly shot yourselves in the collective foot.

          And, no, I’m not G-d, and I’m also sane enough to know that I’m NOT G-d.

          I truly wish that I could say the same for you and for all of your fellow complicit THUGS who definitely DO suffer from severe G-d complexes.

          • #176 by Justice For ALL on September 14, 2011

            I wrote the above comment. I apologize for the confusion.

          • #177 by Reality Is on September 14, 2011

            Copy. Good luck in your venture or change.

          • #178 by Justice For ALL on September 14, 2011

            @Reality Is,
            No thank you. You have no “good luck” to offer anyone. The only thing you are going to have to offer is very BAD Karma for a very long time. So, please save your self serving PR statements and wishes for “good luck” for someone else who believes it.

          • #179 by Xer on September 15, 2011

            WOW! Wow again! While reading that I’d no idea it was written by JUSTICE FOR ALL, but was impressed by the eloquence early and then repeatedly. What a beautifully constructed piece of written communication!

            It was so powerful I read it aloud to my wife, and at the end she also said, “wow!” Isn’t it amazing such a vulgar excuse for a human being as that FPD PR hack, ‘Reality Is-not’ can inspire such marvelous expression in the English language? Your words are doubtless wasted on ‘him,’ but many here besides myself, and my wife, must have appreciated your eloquently stated thoughts.

            Thank you for taking the time to write them and share them here with us.

            All The Best,
            Xer

          • #180 by Justice for ALL on September 15, 2011

            @Xer, Thank you for your comments,
            It is true that some of the officers who post on this blog, and a few in particular, are routinely self-serving and lack any moral compass or conscience.

            Their belligerent and self-exposing comments do inspire me, and I’m sure, MILLIONS of good citizens around the country, to finally say, “Enough is enough!” We the People WILL be heard and we WILL stand up to injustice!

      • #181 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

        im sure this BS er is probably the biggest fattest load of them all and hands out arrogant, know it all advice at the nearest donut shop on how to cover up by making up some shit like-”always make sure you yell loud into the tape recorders that are attached to your ugly uniforms, STOP RESISTING, that way you can fool everyone into believing you in case you kill the person”

        • #182 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

          :-)

  58. #183 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    LOOKING AT WHAT GETS PAID INTO THE UNION AS DUES, THERE WOULDN’T BE MUCH IN THEIR TREASURY. THEY PROBABLY SPEND THE COLLECTIVE BUCKS ON BEER PARTIES AND SUCH!

    • #184 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      You are only seeing the PAC contribution. That’s usually very low. Like $4.18 a paycheck. They have other dues deductions for the union, and then others for the legal defense fund and state union as well.

  59. #185 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    SURE IS QUIET IN HERE TONIGHT,WHERE ARE THE COPPERS? MAYBE SOMEONE TOLD THEM TO STAY THE HELL OUT OF HERE?

    • #186 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      Right here reading. :-)

  60. #187 by 9c1copcar on September 12, 2011

    I was listening to John and Ken today. At 5:40 PM this evening, they had everyone in Fullerton blow thier horns. It was great.

    • #188 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

      WELL? DID YOU BLOW YOUR CANADIAN HONKER?

  61. #189 by 9c1copcar on September 12, 2011

    *their

  62. #190 by 9c1copcar on September 12, 2011

    FEDUP,

    I welcome all officers who are pro FPD. Everyone should be able to voice their opinions, no matter what their views are regarding this case. It may not help bring people together, but it makes for a healthy forum.

  63. #191 by fedupwithmorons on September 12, 2011

    I DON’T THINK IT IS APPROPRIATE. BUT, HELL, LET THEMDIG THEIR OWN GRAVES!

  64. #192 by MeYou on September 12, 2011

    Reality Is :
    You are only seeing the PAC contribution. That’s usually very low. Like $4.18 a paycheck. They have other dues deductions for the union, and then others for the legal defense fund and state union as well.

    State Union..

    Are you sure they do not get any monies whatsoever from California Taxpayers to defend themselves from Murdering a California Citizen?

    • #193 by Reality Is on September 12, 2011

      Yep. City will spend a bunch on city attorneys fees though. The defense of the cops is all on their own paid for by the fund.

      The settlement is out of a large pool of cities in place for judgements like this if it happens.

  65. #194 by Paul on September 12, 2011

    Everyone is wondering about the charges the DA will be suggesting in this case. No one wants to discuss the impact on Fullerton city services of a cash settlement. The cover up will be a huge expense since a huge sum is needed to seal the documents and information from the public. That allows the DA to continue, FUPD to continue, and city services take the hit. Fullerton is a self insured city. Go to Mardrossian’s website and look at the size of the awards he has obtained and no one died. This obviously is a bigger case.
    The result of the settlement can be used against DA RACK when its time in 2013. But I bet he does not think that far ahead. Most DAs hope cover ups will just blow away in time.
    The size of the settlements will simply blow your mind! Mr. Thomas picked a good one! The DA, city council, police chief, and the union are playing into Mardrossian’s hands! Juries won’t mind sticking it to some municipality.

  66. #195 by iron maiden on September 12, 2011

    fedupwithmorons :SURE IS QUIET IN HERE TONIGHT,WHERE ARE THE COPPERS? MAYBE SOMEONE TOLD THEM TO STAY THE HELL OUT OF HERE?

    Maybe they’re “fed up” with “morons”, LIKE YOU..hee hee.

    • #196 by outrageous on September 12, 2011

      Just finnished watching the tv show 1000 Ways To Die. There was a segment about a nazi in WWII that was shot in the head but survived with the bullet still lodged in his brain. After the war, he somehow ended up living in the U.S. About 50 years later, he opened the refrigderator door and peeked inside. When he did this, he hit his head dislodging the bullet and it cut into a major artery. He died on the spot. I don’t mean this as a threat, but as i have stated here before, KARMA is the mother of all bitches. The FPD6 and those covering this up or not doing there jobs to the fullest extent of the law will never be able to outrun KARMA. The nazi segment was hilarious and put a smile on my face when i thought of everyone on here who has defended the cops responsible for KT beating. If by some miracle, the cops don’t get charged or are not punished appropriatly, I’m sure KARMA is going to be rubbing her hands together thinking and planning on what to do to these poor excuses for human beings.

  67. #197 by merijoe on September 12, 2011

    ut oh

  68. #198 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 12, 2011

    The extent to which five or six here have internalized their own bullshit is simply astounding! Would make a fascinating study in the power of group-think.

    • #199 by Jefferson on September 13, 2011

      Speaking of bullshit please explain the unhealthy relationship between Rackaucas and the Schroeders. And then opine freely on the continued presence of chief DA investigator Stan Berry on the Thomas AFTER it was revealed that he was best buds with FPD Chief Peter, er, Mike Sellers.

      • #200 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

        Let me ask you this: Where did you get your information that A) Stan Berry and Sellers are close personal friends, and B) that Stan Berry is or ever was the chief DA investigator in the murder of Kelly Thomas?

        Was it here on FFF? http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/uh-oh-is-the-das-investigation-in-the-hands-of-the-chiefs-good-buddy/

        First, notice the headline is in the form of a question, “Uh Oh. Is the DA’s Investigation in the Hands of the Chief’s Good Buddy?” This is a favorite tactic of those who would use words to mislead, the “Uh Oh” scares the reader and the question plants the seed of distrust without the nuisance of factual support, after all, it’s just a question!

        Second, notice also that the source for the information is an “unsigned note” sent in to FFF. Of course the part about the note with its serious charges of conflict of interest having been sent anonymously was quickly forgotten and went unmentioned in media picking up on the ‘story,’ as it was on Gawker.com http://gawker.com/stan-berry/

        Third, no where in the tale does it say that Stan Berry is the “chief” investigator in the Thomas murder, but I guess that sounds better to conspiracy theory buffs than just ‘one of the investigators.’

        Fourth, the FFF blog entry ends with a very big IF: “If our informant is correct, this would be a huge conflict of interest…” Yes, IF it is true that Sellers and one of the lead investigators are ‘best buds’ that might raise eyebrows, and if it can be shown that this friendship has resulted in a cover-up to protect Sellers, that would be a very big deal, but so far I see no evidence of that having happened. Quite the opposite actually: Mike Sellers has run for cover, taking an extended medical leave to protect his pension, a new acting chief has been named and it is widely expected that Sellers will not return to work in Fullerton.

        Lastly, Sellers having stepped down would seem to have seriously damaged this conflict of interest conspiracy theory. Where exactly is the conflict now? What? An investigator is going to commit a felony and hide evidence in a high profile investigation so as to protect a friend who no longer needs protection? Only on FFF would that make any kind of sense.

        • #201 by Johnny Donut on September 13, 2011

          If I recall, here’s the paraphrased defense that Fullerton offered when the media questioned them on the Sellers/Berry accusation:

          “We all work together, so lots of cops have friends at the DA.”

          • #202 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

            Sounds accurate to me. They are, after all, law enforcement colleagues. A lot of folks in every profession and trade are friends with their colleagues. That’s just reality.

            But now Mr. Donut, let me ask you, do you take that and make the leap to ‘Stan Berry is best buds with Sellers and so he’s going to commit a felony by hiding evidence against the cops who murdered Kelly Thomas so as to protect their boss, his best bud, who stepped down as chief and no longer needs his protection?

            Seems like a huge stretch, and perhaps even libelous, even if the anonymous note writer is correct. I suppose that’s why FFF thought it best to headline their ugly innuendo in the form of a question. ‘

          • #203 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

            Yeah, well we all know there are true friends and then there are things we call acquaintances, and they are a dime a dozen.

            True friends you can count on one hand, the rest always disappear when you get into trouble.
            So, who are these cop’s true friends?

        • #204 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

          As for the relationship between T-Rack and the Schroeders being “unhealthy,” I don’t know if it is or is not. Or even if they have a ‘too close’ relationship as has been suggested in the Weekly, and perhaps elsewhere.

          Please note: Contrary to the belief here on FFF among some, I am not a great fan of the DA, and I’m not here to stick up for him personally.

          For all I know T-Rack might be the worst person in the world. But I do have a theory as to what is going to happen down the line, and that is that the DA is going to have to file serious charges against the officers involved, and that, based on the generally negative experience he’s had in many of the cases of police misconduct his office has argued before conservative, sympathetic to police OC juries, the DA is taking a careful and very deliberate approach this time around. Which to me, as a strong supporter of justice in the murder of Kelly Thomas and one who wants very badly for the guilty to go to prison for a long, long time, seems like the right thing to do.

          Again, contrary to prevailing thought here, this is not going to be an easy case to try and win. And if anyone would like to debate this last point, I’ll be around.

          • #205 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

            Being an out of towner, could you explain the Schroeder relationship? Who are they?

          • #206 by Jt on September 13, 2011

            You’ve cited the OC Weekly’s Scott Moxley a lot. I’d like to suggest someone contact him and get his take on the DA’s office, their relationship with the Schroeders, and the DA’s general willingness (or lack thereof) to prosecute cops.

        • #207 by Dr. Dick Jones on September 13, 2011

          That boy Sellers ain’t gone nowhere. He ain’t stepped down nohow. Went on leave ah guess.

          Did ah say ah’m a doctor?

          • #208 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

            Ah come on, here on FFF Sellers has been widely criticised for taking a medical leave to protect his pension prior to being either formally fired or stepping down for good. You can’t have it both ways, either the above is true or the ‘best buds’ conspiracy theory is valid, pick one.

        • #209 by Reality Is on September 13, 2011

          Same tactic used over and over on here but Xer and his friends. Say something as if it’s fact, and let the dogs run loose. It’s a normal tactic used all the time by activist groups. If they didn’t make things up, then no one would listen.

  69. #210 by Xer on September 13, 2011

    Reality IS – My Free Spirit Ass – [is] – Really??? – Fullerton Cake = dog pecker gnat

    Xer :
    Yes, mayhem + death = Felony murder = death penalty

    Xer :
    Felony murder: Death caused in the commission of Mayhem.
    Very simple. Even a socio-psychopath should be able to grasp it.


    Fullerton Cakes Reality :
    Very simple? Really? You can’t be serious. I don’t think you are serious very often but trying to figure out when is tough.

    :
    Felony murder: Death caused in the commission of Mayhem.
    Very simple. Even a socio-psychopath should be able to grasp it.

    Xer :
    Xer: Felony murder: Death caused in the commission of Mayhem.
    Even a socio-psychopath should be able to grasp it.
    Fullerton Cakes Reality: Very simple? Really?
    Xer: Oops, my mistake.
    Here maybe this will help? Or not.
    mayhem 1) n. the criminal act of disabling, disfiguring, or cutting off or making useless one of the members (leg, arm, hand, foot, eye) of another either intentionally or in a fight, called maiming. The serious nature of the injury makes mayhem a felony, which is called “aggravated assault” in most states. 2) v. to commit mayhem is to cause gross harm in an uncontrolled fashion.
    2) v. to commit mayhem is to cause gross harm in an uncontrolled fashion.
    Erm… are you suggesting the gross harm to Kelly Thomas, multiple fractured ribs one of which must have accounted for the punctured lung, disfigured head from multiple broken bones, concussion and skull fractures from smashing his head into the pavement and curb, and repeated repeated repeated repeated blows to the face and head with the butt end of a taser, not to mention six taser electrical attacks at least one directly over the heart causing cardiac arrhythmia leading to interrupted blood flow to the brain, were not “in an uncontrolled fashion?” So, you are admitting it was all intentional even pre-meditated, perhaps?
    Well, then I stand corrected by your first-hand experience in Kelly’s death. Clearly one of the monsters who killed him would know better than I whether it was pre-meditated of uncontrolled.
    You can tell when I’m not serious by the twinkle in my eyes. Hint: At the moment they are not twinkling.
    _____________________________________

    Attorney Mark Cabaniss September 12th:

    …if the investigation reveals that Kelly Thomas would have needed plastic surgery to repair his face had he lived, or that he had broken bones, or permanently and severely damaged organs, such as his eyes or ears, that a charge of felony murder with the crime of mayhem as the predicate felony would be legally warranted. I further believe that if the police were subject to a felony murder prosecution with mayhem as the predicate felony, then the prosecutor should seek the death penalty. Finally, I also believe that if the police were to receive death sentences after trial, then they ought to be executed, just like other killers.

  70. #211 by larry on September 13, 2011

    Paul :
    Everyone is wondering about the charges the DA will be suggesting in this case. No one wants to discuss the impact on Fullerton city services of a cash settlement. The cover up will be a huge expense since a huge sum is needed to seal the documents and information from the public. That allows the DA to continue, FUPD to continue, and city services take the hit. Fullerton is a self insured city. Go to Mardrossian’s website and look at the size of the awards he has obtained and no one died. This obviously is a bigger case.
    The result of the settlement can be used against DA RACK when its time in 2013. But I bet he does not think that far ahead. Most DAs hope cover ups will just blow away in time.
    The size of the settlements will simply blow your mind! Mr. Thomas picked a good one! The DA, city council, police chief, and the union are playing into Mardrossian’s hands! Juries won’t mind sticking it to some municipality.

    SADLY, THE D A IS SITTING STILL WAITING FOR THE CONTROVERSY TO WANE. THE D A HAS FAVORS TO RETURN AND THEY’RE ALL BEING CASHED IN NOW WITH THIS CASE. DO YOU THINK THE UNIONS WILL ALLOW THIS INCIDENT TO GO ANYWHERE BUT THE DUMPSTER. HOW CAN YOU THINK THE CHIEF IS GOING TO STEP AWAY WITH OUT HIS MODEST RETIREMENT PACKAGE. THERE’S BIG MONEY HERE. WHEN IT’S ALL OVER ANY ACTIVIST IN FULLERTON WILL BE DEALT WITH BY EXONERATED COPS.

  71. #212 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

    Just because Sellers stepped down doesn’t mean his buddy won’t screw up the investigation of officer’s to save face for Sellers. The point remains, Sellers was in charge of the PD when Kelly was murdered and he is ultimately responsible and accountable.

    No amount of trying to fix the outcome of the investigation is going to make our anger go away, or change the public perception of FPD. They know what outcome we expect from them, and we had best get it.

    • #213 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

      To “save face???” This guy Berry is going to commit a felony or two or three so that Sellers can ‘save face?” Please.

      Mike Sellers is not that big of a deal anywhere in So Cal. He has no legacy to worry about. He’s barely remembered here in Laguna Beach for having been the chief a few years a few when a homeless man was tasered to death in the city jail, leading to major reform in the way the homeless are treated our beautiful town.

      Mark my words, Sellers is going to quietly ride off into his sunset years with his fat pension and never be heard from again.

      I do agree with you that the anger is what’s not going to go away, nor is the case against the murderers of Kelly Thomas. Expect serious charges to come down upon them shortly after the coroner’s report makes it to the DA’s office.

    • #214 by john doe on September 13, 2011

      Threatening is not gonna help you..take it back.

  72. #215 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

    Sellers will have two pensions, what does he have to lose? He won’t come back, but, retiring on medical will not protect his wealth from punitive damages.

    • #216 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

      fedupwithmorons :Being an out of towner, could you explain the Schroeder relationship? Who are they?

      Mike Schroeder is a GOP “power broker” here in OC where the republican party is dominant. As the former GOP state chair, he’s well connected, many would say too well connected. His wife is Susan Kang Schroeder, spokesperson for the OC DA. Notably, Ms. Schroeder gave the best description we have had to date of what exactly is on the unreleased video of the officers murdering Kelly Thomas. Despite being a season pro, she very nearly broke down on CNN while describing the horror of what she saw.

      As I said, her husband has been criticized, particularly in the alternative press, for being a ‘Kingmaker.” Below is a link to a short piece by the OC Weekly’s Scott Moxley that details some of the charges made by Mike Schroeder’s harshest critic. Be sure and scroll down a bit and also read the very short bit about the OC DA’s feud with police officers and their associations state-wide in the wake of his office’s response to the acquittal on the matter of the People v. Deputy Christopher Hibbs. Here’s the key part:

      “The case made post-trial headlines because DA Rackauckas blamed the 11-1 jury vote for acquittal on deputy witnesses who employed a “code of silence,” feigning no memory at trial of statements they’d made against Hibbs during a grand-jury probe. Sheriff Hutchens and deputies’ union boss Wayne J. Quint took exception to the code-of-silence accusation. Indeed, several police organizations throughout California sent complaint letters to Rackauckas.”

      Reporter Scott Moxley ends with:

      “Look for this feud to continue.”

      So it’s interesting now to read so widely on FFF that the OC DA is in the pocket of police unions and is risking his career to cover up for and protect the murderers of Kelly Thomas. Doesn’t make much sense, does it?

  73. #217 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

    Sellers is a greedy, double dipping do-nothing!

    • #218 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

      I agree, Sellers is an asshole with a history of heading departments abusive to some of the most defenseless members of our society. To his minor credit, he did not get in the way of reform here, and some say he even helped things along, but no tears were shed when he left after a short term as chief, and the fact that he went on to head up a force facing possible murder charges in yet another killing of homeless man speaks volumes.

      Sorry though, Sellers assholeness does not make the ‘best buds’ conspiracy theory true. In fact, one has to wonder who would risk their career and felony charges to help an asshole ‘save face?’ The dots don’t connect.

      • #219 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

        Eye, lest we be naive about the political undertones of this police corruption, there have been many that would sabotage their own career through commisions of felonies to protect not only themselves but, their buddies. It happens all of the time, it just may not make the air waves as it should.
        We saw just yesterday, an LAUSD cop lose his career over wanting to make himslef appear to be a hero, a victim and a target of an unknown suspect. He lied and got caught in those lies. Keep your eyes wide open when looking at FPD goings on,

        One sidebar to this, why on earth would any cop clean his weapon inside his patrol car? I personally think he was fuggin around with his weapon and it discharged. What an idiot, sounds like a Fullerton 6′er!

        • #220 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 15, 2011

          “We saw just yesterday, an LAUSD cop lose his career…

          Not a very good example. Apparently the guy went off his rocker, and has been ordered into treatment. I would not argue that crazy people won’t risk their careers for unexplainable reasons, so I guess I could have written “one has to wonder who, ‘outside of a mentally defective person,’ would risk their career and felony charges…” I just didn’t think I needed to be that specific.

    • #221 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

      He’s in the wind. Two retirements, medical on one, he’s on his horse never looking back. I’m sure with a smile. :)

  74. #222 by Dr. Dick Jones on September 13, 2011

    EyeNeverSayNo :
    Ah come on, here on FFF Sellers has been widely criticised for taking a medical leave to protect his pension prior to being either formally fired or stepping down for good. You can’t have it both ways, either the above is true or the ‘best buds’ conspiracy theory is valid, pick one.

    Naw, ah ain’t a gonna fall fer none o’ yer tricky lawyerin’ lingo. Sellers dun got hissef some gas ‘n high blood presser. He be back soon, ‘n y’all kin take that to the river boat gamblin’ parler.

    Did ah ‘member to tell y’all ah’m a doctah?!

  75. #223 by fedupwithmorons on September 13, 2011

    STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP DR. DICK, LAUGHING SO HARD HERE…….

    • #224 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011

      Me too, that was really funny.

      • #225 by Xer on September 15, 2011

        ROFL

        Really! It was still funny when I read it too. Glad you two didn’t use up all the laughs before the rest of us got to see it. 8-)

  76. #226 by Mark on September 13, 2011

    Mr Cabaniss, All of your comments on this Kelly Thomas case have been well written and I agree with all of your sentiments. Perhaps you or someone else could tell us if, because of the DA’s troublesome, questionable, and perhaps improper statements, if you and/or anyone else concerned could file a misconduct complaint against him with the State and local bar associations?

  77. #227 by Fullerton on September 13, 2011

    Never trust O.C. District Attorney Office and its cronies..

  78. #228 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 14, 2011

    “Mr Cabaniss, All of your comments on this Kelly Thomas case have been well written…”

    Oh yes, especially this: “Presumably the DA knows that the phrase “excessive force” isn’t in the Penal Code. So why is he using it?”

    Just one little problem, well, kinda of a big problem actually, Cabaniss seems to have missed the LA Times reporter’s use of quotes. The DA didn’t use the phrase, the reporter did. Here….

    *The D.A. said he did not want to speculate on possible criminal charges — whether they be manslaughter or excessive force — until “all the evidence is in.”*

    Clearly that was the reporters phrasing not the DA’s, negating Cabaniss entire point in the very long paragraph right in the middle of his supposedly well writen article. LOL

    Talk about a “non sequitur or red herring!”

    • #229 by Mark on September 15, 2011

      Are you stating that you know for a fact that the LA Time reporter has completely misquoted the DA? (You quoted the quote of the reporter, beginning with “The D A said……” If in fact the DA has been misquoted, I reckon it would serve him well to clarify whatever was said, if he could.

      • #230 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 15, 2011

        Mark wrote; “Are you stating that you know for a fact that the LA Time reporter has completely misquoted the DA”

        No, I’m stating that Cabaniss (is this you?) faulted the DA, and built much of his critique, around the DA’s supposed use of a term that we don’t actually know that he used. And no, I don’t believe the DA was misquoted at all.

        On the contrary, reporters Richard Winton and Abby Sewell were precise in letting us know that ‘excessive force’ was their term, not the DA’s. Take another look at what the reporters wrote in the key sentence, this time, for clarity I’ll leave out my own outside quotes:

        (begin LAT quote)The D.A. said he did not want to speculate on possible criminal charges — whether they be manslaughter or excessive force — until “all the evidence is in.”(end LAT quote)

        Again, notice that the only words of the DA’s that were directly quoted were “until all the evidence is in.” The rest of the phrasing is that of the reporters. Only Winton and Sewell know the exact words used by the DA, but the careful use of quotes tells us they distilled the gist of what he said into an easily understood sentence.

        If you are Mark Cabaniss, I guess I have to ask, did you miss that?

        • #231 by Mark on September 15, 2011

          No, I am not Mark Cabaniss, and I certainly wouldn’t want to portray a seemingly knowledgeable attorney as one who is publicly talking to himself (see #218). While I understand your clarifying point, I don’t understand the idea of (precisely) what the DA said being in need of defense, if as you stated, the reporters distilled the gist of what the DA said into an easily understood sentence. All of this sort of thing comes with territory of being a public figure, as public figures all over our nation deal with this sort of thing every day. Distilled or direct, if this gist is in need of clarification, it would do either the LA times reporters or the DA good to clarify these comments.

          • #232 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 16, 2011

            Hi Mark (not Cabaniss) :)

            You wrote: “I don’t understand the idea of (precisely) what the DA said being in need of defense”

            Well, if you read Mr. Cabaniss’ essay above you will see that the central point (litterally, it’s the very long paragraph in the middle) is that the OC DA supposedly used the term ‘excessive force’ and was quoted in the LAT by reporters Winton and Sewell as having done so. Cabaniss uses this as an example of the OC DA “conceding points to the (possible) criminal defense even before any charges are filed, indeed, even before the investigation is complete.”

            There is just one very big problem with this analysis by Cabaniss: The DA was not quoted by the LAT reporters as having ever used the term ‘excessive force.” As I pointed out, that was Winton and Sewell’s phrase, the only direct quote in this regard of the DA’s actual words was (until) “all the evidence is in.”

            So yeah, I’m wondering if he missed that because he put words in the DA’s mouth that we don’t know that he used, then took him to task for those words. That’s just wrong, and a pretty big slip up by Cabaniss.

            As for your assertion that Cabaniss’ error here on FFF should be addressed by either the LAT’s Winton and Sewell or the OC DA, I don’t agree that either is obligated to do so, for one we don’t even know if this lawyer from Ukiah and his essay are even on their radar, and two, it is not really a great idea to respond defensively to this kind of faulty logic, to do so gives Cabaniss’ failed point more credibility than it deserves.

        • #233 by Just for EyeNeverSayNo on September 16, 2011

          …also posted in the We Get Mail: Oooooh, A Threat! Thread. Just interested to read your rationalization, ur, response.

          EyeNeverSayNo: No, I’m stating that Cabaniss (is this you?) faulted the DA…

          EyeNeverSayNo: If you are Mark Cabaniss, I guess I have to ask, did you miss that?
          http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/reading-the-tea-leaves-parsing-the-statements-out-of-the-das-office/

          EyeNeverSayNo: I came home and started writing posts on the subject to the OCR site, and eventually found my way here, where a few otherwise like-minded folks have apparently decided I’m Susan Kang Schroeder! But that’s another kinda sucky story… LOL
          http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/we-get-mail-a-threat/

          That is interesting. When you ask someone an off the cuff question it is something you just “have to ask,” but if I ask the same sort of question of you suddenly it is a blog-wide conspiracy?

          Your double standards are showing, pal.

          Incidentally:

          EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011
          As for the relationship between T-Rack and the Schroeders being “unhealthy,” I don’t know if it is or is not. Or even if they have a ‘too close’ relationship as has been suggested in the Weekly, and perhaps elsewhere.

          Please note: Contrary to the belief here on FFF among some, I am not a great fan of the DA, and I’m not here to stick up for him personally.

          And, yet you do, again, and again, and again. The number must be into several hundred times now on the FFFF blog. Are the number of your denials increasing too?

          There is no conspiracy. People just see you defending T-Rack ad nauseam, and draw what seems a logical conclusion, not because anyone dislikes you, or hates T-rack, but simply because of the observable facts. Someone says something about T-Rack, and you rush to his rescue.

          “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn,” what your relation with T-Rack is, or is not. Just don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

          Used to have quite a bit of respect for you, but now, don’t know what to think. It is also disturbing the ferocity with which you attack people you seem to feel threaten T-Rack, people like Peanut. Why is that? And of course, I am another conspiracy nut to you, right? Why because I’ve got questions about the Emperor’s new cloths?

          atb
          Xer

          • #234 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 16, 2011

            Xer wrote: “That is interesting. When you ask someone an off the cuff question it is something you just “have to ask,” but if I ask the same sort of question of you suddenly it is a blog-wide conspiracy? Your double standards are showing, pal.”

            Xer, did you miss the fact that the poster of whom I asked the question shares the same first name as attorney Cabaniss? This is why I was curious if I was addressing Cabaniss himself or just coincidentally another ‘Mark.’ No implication of conspiracy was intended.

            As for defending T-Rack, as I’ve written elsewhere, I don’t give a shit about the DA personally. He may very well be an evil asshole, but I do have a theory of what’s going to happen down the line, and because my theory is that the DA will and must charge the cops with serious crimes, I’ve been put in the position of having to defend the delay in charging and explaining why I believe it’s not evidence of a cover-up or a grand conspiracy. And yes, defending the DA on other points as well, as I did here. Example: If I thought the DA was indeed ‘conceding points’ to the cops’ defense as Mr. Cabaniss asserts above, then I would be forced to reexamine my theory, but when I see that Cabaniss’ logic is faulty and based on a misreading of the article he cites, I point that out in defense of my own theory. Is this really that hard to understand? I mean I’ve assumed that the cheap shots at me for supposedly wanting to “blow the DA” and such were just that, cheap shots by small minds, but you seem to be smarter than that, so I’m surprised you also jump off and on that bandwagon.

            Unlike most here, I’ve stepped up to give an unpopular theory and to defend it. For example, when asked to give my opinion as to a specific time frame with regard to the OC DA’s charging or not charging the officers who murdered Thomas, I stepped up to the plate and answered the question. I don’t recall my exact words at the moment, and what the details are not germane to my point to you here, but the “Anonymous” poster who asked me the question seemed to appreciate that I at least had the balls to commit myself to a time frame: http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/we-get-mail-a-threat/#comment-55739

            Anyway, you seem to think that every time I jokingly post something about my being referred to as “Susan Kang Schroeder” I’m talking about you. Sorry Xer, while you may have been the first, others have picked up on it as well, indeed, someone took one of my posts, copied part of it and reposted it as coming from “Susan Scrotum.” Real mature, eh?

            So look, why don’t you climb down off my back and let’s either have some worthwhile dialog or just ignore each other? I’d prefer the latter over the former because I enjoy reading and responding to much of what you have to say.

            Thanks in advance for considering the points above.

          • #235 by EyeNeverSayNo on September 16, 2011

            Oops, I meant “I’d prefer the FORMER over the LATTER, because I enjoy reading and responding to much of what you have to say.”

            A little dyslexic today I guess. :)

        • #236 by Xer on September 16, 2011

          EyeNeverSayNo: No, I’m stating that Cabaniss (is this you?) faulted the DA…

          EyeNeverSayNo: If you are Mark Cabaniss, I guess I have to ask, did you miss that?

          EyeNeverSayNo: I came home and started writing posts on the subject to the OCR site, and eventually found my way here, where a few otherwise like-minded folks have apparently decided I’m Susan Kang Schroeder! But that’s another kinda sucky story… LOL

          That is interesting. When you ask someone an off the cuff question it is something you just “have to ask,” but if I ask the same sort of question of you suddenly it is a blog-wide conspiracy?

          Your double standards are showing, pal.

          Incidentally:

          EyeNeverSayNo on September 13, 2011 
As for the relationship between T-Rack and the Schroeders being “unhealthy,” I don’t know if it is or is not. Or even if they have a ‘too close’ relationship as has been suggested in the Weekly, and perhaps elsewhere.

          Please note: Contrary to the belief here on FFF among some, I am not a great fan of the DA, and I’m not here to stick up for him personally.

          And, yet you do, again, and again, and again. The number must be into several hundred times now on the FFFF blogs.

          Are the number of your denials increasing too?

          There is no conspiracy. People just see you defending T-Rack ad nauseam, and draw what seems a logical conclusion, not because anyone dislikes you, or hates T-rack, but simply because of the observable facts. Someone says something about T-Rack, and you rush to his rescue.

          “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn,” what your relation with T-Rack is, or is not. Just don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

          Used to have quite a bit of respect for you, but now, don’t know what to think. It is also disturbing the ferocity with which you attack people you seem to feel threaten T-Rack, people like Peanut. Why is that? And of course, I am another conspiracy nut to you, right? Why because I’ve got questions about the Emperor’s new cloths?

          atb
          Xer

  79. #239 by Justice For ALL on September 14, 2011

    Reality Is :
    Copy. Good luck in your venture or change.

    @Reality Is,
    No thank you. You have no “good luck” to offer anyone. The only thing you are going to have to offer is very BAD Karma for a very long time. So, please save your self serving PR statements and wishes for “good luck” for someone else who believes it.

  80. #240 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

    You would be surprised how lucky I am in life. I would like to share some with people in need. Karma. I know some karma gonna hit some people real soon and it’s not me. :)

    Justice For ALL :
    @Reality Is,
    No thank you. You have no “good luck” to offer anyone. The only thing you are going to have to offer is very BAD Karma for a very long time. So, please save your self serving PR statements and wishes for “good luck” for someone else who believes it.

  81. #241 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

    Yes. Simply beautiful. Thank you.

    Xer :
    WOW! Wow again! While reading that I’d no idea it was written by JUSTICE FOR ALL, but was impressed by the eloquence early and then repeatedly. What a beautifully constructed piece of written communication!
    It was so powerful I read it aloud to my wife, and at the end she also said, “wow!” Isn’t it amazing such a vulgar excuse for a human being as that FPD PR hack, ‘Reality Is-not’ can inspire such marvelous expression in the English language? Your words are doubtless wasted on ‘him,’ but many here besides myself, and my wife, must have appreciated your eloquently stated thoughts.
    Thank you for taking the time to write them and share them here with us.
    All The Best,
    Xer

    • #242 by Justice for ALL on September 15, 2011

      @Reality Is,
      Oh, a compliment from a THUG; even though it is completely factitious, I’ll still take it. We’ll see if my next comment inspires the same response from you.

      The badge wearing THUGS know, all too well, that they “can get away with murder” because of their powerful advocates (and best friends) who refuse to press charges, or who file only very minimal charges, don’t file charges against perjuring officers, and who look the other way, cover up and excuse the crimes of those wearing badges.

      Millions will be spent by the union funds; they can spend their own money to defend themselves, of course.

      However, whether, or not, it is good or desirable, or in the public sector’s best interest that any government employees are unionized, and in so doing, they are unionized against the very same public that they are supposed to “protect and serve,” -is another topic for discussion.

      The powerful union PACs and lobbyists get politicians elected, and then those same politicians turn around and reciprocate by passing laws to reward those who voted them into office. It is a very self-serving and continuing circle of influence, corruption and bribery which is not in the best interest of the general public sector.

      How many victims of police brutality and how many victims of officers planting evidence, and how many victims of officers who falsify reports and commit perjury, and how many of the homeless, and how many of the mentally ill victims and their families have access to the millions of dollars necessary to hire a Dream Team of “the best lawyers around” to defend them against such powerful corruption? Not many at all. The deck is stacked against the suspects/defendants.

      The overworked and underpaid Deputy Public Defender, typically fresh out of law school, that represents most accused suspects, is usually not nearly as experienced, nor does s/he have the necessary time, nor the same amount of monetary motivation as a private, high profile attorney, or Dream Team of attorneys.

      The Deputy Public Defenders are assigned to so many cases each year that they have relatively very little time to spend working on each individual case.

      The accused suspects are usually lucky if they even get to meet their Deputy Public Defender attorney before their arraignment. And, even luckier still if their case doesn’t get handed off to a different attorney at the very last moment, who then has to play “catch up.”

      How many murder and assault suspects/defendants have the chance to view video tapes of the crime and rewrite, and rewrite, and rewrite their reports and statements BEFORE they are hauled off to jail?

      And, how many murder and assault suspects and co-defendants get to conspire together to get their stories straight and to coordinate their testimony, and to get their testimony all on the same page FOR WELL OVER TWO MONTHS, BEFORE they are hauled off to jail?

      And, how many murder and assault suspects get to CONSPIRE together and commit their stories to memory for well over two months (so far), while they are all on TAX PAYER PAID VACATION in a beach house in Newport Beach, and all BEFORE they are hauled off to jail and BEFORE they are indicted, as the Fullerton Police Department six murder suspects have been so egregiously privileged to do?

      And, how many murder and assault suspects are allowed to keep their guns and weapons, and allowed to keep their jobs for three weeks, and are allowed to continue working with the very same public that they have just been suspected of assaulting and murdering?

      Of course, those are all rhetorical questions.

      NO ONE gets to do those things; except for the law enforcement officers who have their union rules, their powerful political action committees which lobby for laws that protect their members, and their massive combined union funds, which afford them much more access to “the best lawyers around,” (as Reality Is has so correctly informed us), than what the average person has access to.

      And, don’t forget, they also have very biased D.A.’s offices that are MORE than willing to turn a blind eye to the crimes of those officers that they must work with every day, and which said officers contribute massively to their re-elections.

      And, last, but definitely not least, is the Blue Code of Silence among fellow law enforcement officers. This code does not allow room for any personal integrity or honesty to prevail, out of a fear of job loss, loss of camaraderie, pressure from the higher ups, or whatever else it is, that ensures that the fellow officers “toe the line” so that they, too, will be able to receive their generous pensions, when they retire at age 50.

      Due to the aforementioned conflicts of interest, the citizens are NOT being well served; INSTEAD, we are allowing ourselves to be severely abused at the hands of those that We the People employ.

      • #243 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

        Your opinions are very biased and only some are true.

        If you think cops are thugs and they think they can murder and get away with it like it’s normal activity, that shows your intelligence.

        They are spending their own money. The unions are paying a dollar. The cops pay monthly for their legal defense coverage.

        No one is unionized to be against the public. They have always been unionized, government and private, to protest their own interests and in the case of Fullerton now, to protect against biased people like you with an agenda.

        The political stuff you talk about is the norm for everyone and everything. Politics plays in government jobs, private jobs, and every other job in the US. Not even all police unions have a PAC, and some cop unions don’t even get involved in politics. Most just endorse someone and don’t even have any money. The fact that the police contracts and benefits are fairly consistent statewide should show you that politicians statewide all believed the pay, retirement, and benefits were affordable and fair at the time they all voted to accept them one at at time. Now that wall street has crashed, real estate has crashed, it’s time to find other blame and that is on the backs of government workers. Those workers didn’t put a gun to the heads of politicians, they offered and the workers accepted. It’s fair and always has been fair, and still is fair. No one is getting rich off their jobs and they work for an hourly wage, so each hour of work is an hour of pay.

        Everyone has access to millions of dollars of legal defense if they want to buy that type of insurance and pay for it every two weeks out of their paycheck. Right? Common sense. Just like I have insurance on my car.

        True on the public defender system. Recommend change to fix it. You seem to have a whole bucket of ideas to fix the system that you plan to implement.

        Murder suspects and defendants usually get a good amount of time to conspire and come up with their defense. Murder suspects aren’t usually arrested the day of a murder. It takes weeks and months and sometimes years to build a case against them. Just as is happening now in this case.

        Tax payer vacation happens and will always happen. You can’t fire someone without pay unless you can prove they did something. You can’t fire the last two guys or the last four guys without knowing if they did anything wrong. They have rights, appeals, hearing, etc at which time it is determined if they will be fired. Yes, it would be nice just to fire people when you felt it was time and cut their pay, but that won’t happen as much as you want it to. Another example of why police and other government employees have rights in place. If they didn’t, you would abuse them daily.

        Many murderers keep their guns after murders. Not by choice though. In this case, they aren’t murderers as much as you want to believe they are. Again, that’s why this system is in place so that you don’t run ram rod over it and abuse it. You are just explaining over and over again, time after time, why the system is in place. You would abuse it daily, especially if you were in a position of power. Google police officer lawsuits against cities in California. Cities pay cops millions of dollars a year in lawsuits because they attempted to violate their due process. People like you come into office or make demands without thinking first, and it costs the cities millions.

        Yes, people get to do those things. Not just cops. Union rules govern almost every sector of the work force. PACS of cops are peanuts. Look at them. $3 a paycheck. Big deal. It’s not the money. Politicians like to have cops backing, public safety. It is what it is. If you can prove wrongdoing, go for it.

        Again, millions of dollars is self paid out of their paychecks. You can do that too if you want.

        Blue code of silence is your opinion. It’s not what you say it is. It might have been 20 years ago, but it’s a different era now. Things have changed. I hear it all the time “I’m not going to be quiet for anything that could cost me my job”. You won’t believe that but I see it daily.

        Pensions. Another topic. I pay into mine and with the changes due to the budgets, most cops and city workers will pay into their pensions as well. Generous? I wouldn’t say that but another opinion we all have. No one said much about them before but now it’s a scam. Oh well. No one can change the current pension in place, but they can change it for the new employees that are now getting hired and they will. That’s fine. Whatever they want to do. Fair is fair. No one put a gun to anyone’s head to offer the pay and pensions and benefits of government workers and no one complained before. Complain now and go apply for a job as a government worker.

        I think they are being well served. I’m proud to serve and always have been. Nothing will change that. I’ve been in shootings, fights, lawsuits both federal and civil, internal affairs investigations guilty and not guilty, and everything else. It’s all part of the job. I still love it and always will. You think one way, I think another. We probably agree on some things and disagree on others. That’s the norm statewide. We are all different. People make mistakes in life, some intentional and some not intentional. The not intentional will always be portrayed as intentional when in the public spotlight and there is nothing the cop or anyone else can do. WE are used to it and are ready for it. Not that we don’t care, but nothing we can do and we aren’t going to change yours or anyone else’s mind. Your mind is made up. We know that. We see it everyday. So because we don’t say anything or try to convince you otherwise, doesn’t mean we don’t care. WE just know stubborn, we know when a mind is made up. Activisits and other extreme groups minds are made up. You will never educate them or change their minds, ever.

        Enjoy your day. I will.

        • #244 by Justice For ALL on September 15, 2011

          @Reality Is,
          I have to run to an appt. right now, but suffice it to say for the moment that citizens like me do become “biased” or rather, have their eyes FINALLY OPENED WIDE, when murderers continually get away with murder and they are protected by those who are supposed to watching out for ALL of us, instead of just protecting their buddies.

          Like I said, I don’t know any suspects, who have received the same preferential treatment as your blue buddies who are suspects in a brutal assault and murder.

          Until later.

        • #245 by Jen on September 15, 2011

          Okay – so “Reality Is” made a good cut and paste speech about unions. Don’t disagree. But you missed the point about how those unions use their power (or misuse as it were).

          • #246 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

            JEN, REALITY IS GREAT AT MISSING POINTS, HE IS JUST RETARDED AND CAN’T HELP HIMSELF.

        • #247 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

          SO ARE YOURS YOU UNADULTERATED HIPOCRITE!

        • #248 by Justice for ALL on September 16, 2011

          @Reality Is,
          I’m disappointed in you; you didn’t even put a dopey smiley face on your last reply.

          Yes, I still think some “officers” are THUGS and I still continue to believe that some of them do think they can murder and get away with it like it’s normal activity. And, I’ll keep thinking that until proven wrong.

          And, any “innocent” officers who don’t speak out, and who, by their silence, are covering for the THUGS, are ALSO complicit THUGS.

          And, I also believe that your ad hominem attacks against me are showing YOUR LACK of intelligence.

          Yes, I agree that the “officers” may be spending most of their own money on their legal defense coverage. However, the fact remains that they have a union which provides them with millions of dollars so that just as YOU stated in a previous comment:

          “They will spend millions out of the fund for the best lawyers around. It has got many cops off over the years.”

          This fact seems to be at least partly responsible for giving the “officers” their unrighteous feeling of invulnerability and impunity, allowing them the freedom to “get away with murder,” and many other abuses of their power. They know the union has “got their back,” no matter what.

          You stated that, “Everyone has access to millions of dollars of legal defense if they want to buy that type of insurance and pay for it every two weeks out of their paycheck. Right? Common sense. Just like I have insurance on my car.”

          Well, you are partly correct in that you can purchase legal insurance; however, that insurance does NOT give everyone an access to “millions of dollars.” In fact, I, myself, have just such a prepaid Legal Services Insurance plan in place. However, I pay $35. Per month, and the benefits include phone consultations, referrals to attorneys and a 20% reduction in the attorney’s hourly billing rate. Any retainer fees/ and other misc. attorney fees must be paid up front.

          A couple of times, when I actually tried to use the pre-paid legal service for some minor legal advice, I quickly realized that the attorneys who worked there were “newbies.” I knew as much, or more, about my particular legal issue than the newbie attorney did. (The home we were renting at the time was being foreclosed on and I wanted to know our legal rights/options.) Anyway, I ended up not even using their practically worthless services.

          So, there you have my cost/benefit analysis for buying a pre-paid legal services insurance plan. If anyone knows of a better pre-paid legal services plan; please let me know.

          Again, citizens don’t have “millions of dollars” to cover their backs, “no matter what.” We don’t have the same feelings of fearlessness and entitlement that you do, that comes along with knowing that any wrong doing or crime will be swept under the carpet and most likely will never be exposed to the light of day. And, even if, despite your best efforts, your crime is exposed- it will soon all just quietly disappear- after a few of months of “vacation” in a beach house on Newport Beach.

          Yes, the blue brothers will just slap each other on the back, brag and laugh at how they really pounded some poor helpless guy, like Kelly Thomas, into the ground and kept mercilessly beating him, even after he was already unconscious.

          And, then of course, go and collect their pay, I mean, free drinks and dinner at the Barf Bar for the Blue Brothers.

          And, I VERY highly doubt that the Kelly Thomas’ of the world, nor millions of other indigent, homeless, mentally ill folks are able to come up with “millions of dollars” “for the best lawyers around” to “get them off” similar to the way in which you are so concerned with “getting the cops off.”

          Again, here is YOUR statement from an earlier post:

          “They will spend millions out of the fund for the best lawyers around. It has got many cops off over the years.”

          I highly doubt that the Kelly Thomas’ of the world have the wherewithal to purchase a pre-paid legal services plan, as if that would really help them anyway. It wouldn’t even pay for their bail bond.

          But, of course, the blue brothers don’t need bail bonds, because they don’t ever get charged; they just go on a several month’s long paid vacation. Hmm, that must be something to do with the union rules, the PACs, and a very sympathetic and forgiving D.A. and city council; isn’t that convenient. How very nice for all you blue brothers.

          I know, Reality Is, you and your buds, sorry- I meant THUGS, are SO wonderful, and SO great, and SO smart, and SO above everyone else, oh, and let’s not forget-you are all SO compassionate and SO concerned about the people that you serve, including the homeless, the indigent, and the mentally ill, that YOU MUST surely deserve MORE “JUSTICE” than all of those regular peons, and those poor, indigent, homeless, sick folks. After all, YOU ARE SO MUCH BETTER than any of them. Right?

          WRONG, you are ONLY a legend in your OWN mind.

          • #249 by still love fullerton on September 16, 2011

            bravo !!! well said !!

          • #250 by Reality Is on September 16, 2011

            Thank you for the compliments.

            Pre paid legal is terrible FYI.

        • #251 by Jt on September 16, 2011

          Hey, nicely written. I like it.

          You have appeared to be many people, and you have been hijacked enough that we don’t really know if you are anything close to what you say you are.

          And we don’t really know what you think, again, because things you say don’t always square at all with other things you say, and that might be because you were hijacked, or in a bad mood, or whatever.

          But here’s the thing. I’m not a hardcore “take everybody’s pension away” type at all. I understand totally what you’re saying about Wall street and the economy and people taking that out on govt. workers and I can’t totally disagree.

          Those are not my issues, and if Kelly Thomas was alive I wouldn’t be on here complaining about your pay and benefits (which I would have to characterize as rather high by the way) and the fact you guys get to retire at 50 and the other absurdities, that you are right, the citizenry approved.

          I just don’t want you guys to be acting like assholes, beating people up because you’re psychotic or on a power trip, acting like you run everything and every civilian is either a criminal or just some moron that needs to shut up and let you do your job. I don’t want my police force committing felonies, and stealing, and sexually abusing and kidnapping women and the rest of it.

          And especially I don’t want you guys killing my fellow citizens for no reason.

          And that’s worth fighting for, even if we piss off every cop from here to Mexico. And its certainly worth getting rid of a few old windbag councilmen for.

          Everbody who reads this site knows this.

          • #252 by Reality Is on September 16, 2011

            I agree. Policing needs to be done by policy and by the law. I have said that from day 1. Punish the ones that do wrong. Wrong is not determined by an anti police, anti government person or group. It’s determined by the people paid big bucks to do it. If people want to change that, change the laws in place. The laws in place to protect the police are there to protect them from the same abuses by the citizens or corrupt government leaders that want to run over the police for their personal or group’s agendas.

            Pay and pension. Another topic. I feel police are fairly compensated for the job they do.

  82. #253 by Hog Wild on September 15, 2011

    Been reading your blog for some days and want to comment on who is the only one guilty of mayhem, maiming and causing gross harm to Kelly Thomas is Mr. Ron Thomas. He is the one who should take responsibility for his son’s death.

    If Mr. Thomas had taken care of his son, none of this would be an issue but we all know that he is trying to assauge his guilt by blaming others for his lack of parenting. Once you have children they are a lifelong responsibility.

    Why does he keep trying to deflect attention away from himself after all he has NOT done.

    It becomes increasingly difficult to find sympathy for such as he.

    • #254 by george on September 15, 2011

      you r right , its his fault that his son was not intoxicated , or had no drugs in his system , its his fault that his son was in a public spot not causing trouble or harm to anyone , its his fault , as much as ours that he trusted the police to obey the law not abuse the law . tell me hog wild , if this is his fault tell me how ? you would not let your adult children to be at a public bus stop. is that where he failed him . what was KT doing wrong when he was approached by that group of thugs ? you my friend is the reason the police continue to act lawlessly .

      • #255 by Jen on September 15, 2011

        Let’s just say for the sake of argument that you are 100% correct. He was the world’s worst father. Pray tell, what on earth does that have to do with the fact he was murdered by members of the FPD? You are clearly trolling or incredibly stupid.

        • #256 by blessusall on September 15, 2011

          You are absolutely correct. What do his parents have to do with the actions of the police officers who brutally beat him to death? I suppose one could make the case that the parenting skills of the parents of the six police officers might have had some impact on the fact that those officers beat a man to death–much could be made of that–but whether or not Kelly Thomas was loved or cared for has nothing to do with what those officers did to him. To cast aspersions on Kelly Thomas or his parents at this point is simply a strategy to fog this issue and take the focus off the actual perpetrators. Much could also be made of the fact that one of the officers, possibly the lead in this incident, had a brain injury resulting from being shot in the head. It is entirely possible that the brain injury may have affected his functioning. Brain injuries can cause poor impulse control, intermittent explosive disorder, and behavior that is similar to bipolar disorder, such as that seen in manic and hypomanic phases, where judgment is impaired, insight is limited, impulses are poorly controlled, and the individual can become quite dangerously violent. This is pretty common knowledge in the medical field. It’s not simply a matter of having only one eye–that would be the least concerning. A brain injury can bring about a whole host of problems, including a propensity towards hostile and aggressive behavior that can become violent under certain circumstances.

    • #257 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

      HOG, REALITY, JAYN WHATEVER YOUR AKA IS TODAY, WE DON’T CARE WHAT YOU THINK, STOP DEFLECTING AND VICTIM BLAMING!

      • #258 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

        Just me. Same pig. No deflecting. Truth hurts huh? :)

  83. #259 by Jen on September 15, 2011

    From Reality Is “People make mistakes in life, some intentional and some not intentional. The not intentional will always be portrayed as intentional when in the public spotlight and there is nothing the cop or anyone else can do. WE are used to it and are ready for it.”

    An intential mistake??? THAT- my sweet piggie – is an oxymoron.

    A mistake would be inadvertantly hurting someone during questioning… fight ensues…things get out of control, whatever…. Two or Six or however many cops beating someone to death can only be called murder.

    An unintentional mistake, indeed!

    • #260 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

      Oh ok. Call the DA. Let him know.

      • #261 by Anonymous on September 15, 2011

        I know, I know – law enforcement is infallible – if he hasn’t charged yet, then certainly FPD are innocent.

    • #262 by Justice for ALL on September 16, 2011

      It’s also known as a Freudian Slip. The truth comes out, sooner or later. He can’t monitor himself every moment. If he talks long enough, he’ll tell the truth, and he just did. Kelly’s murder was definitely a HUGE “mistake” by all human standards; but piggies are not human. And, it was intentional.

      • #263 by Reality Is on September 16, 2011

        No slip. Any murder is a mistake goofball.

        Not intentional. Jury will show you. :)

        • #264 by Justice for ALL on September 16, 2011

          An intentional murder is not a mistake. And, the prosecutor does not need to prove intent in order to prove aggravated murder.

          • #265 by Reality Is on September 16, 2011

            We will see this week.

        • #266 by Anonymous on September 16, 2011

          Any murder is a mistake????

          Why do you sound more like a defense atty than a cop?

          I’m sure victims of Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahumer, et al., and others are resting in peace knowing that it was all just a big mistake…

  84. #267 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

    jen you tell that slob what’s up!

  85. #268 by fedupwithmorons on September 15, 2011

    in kelly’s case, there were no mistakes, everything was deliberate and premeditated!

    • #269 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

      Oh ok.

  86. #270 by Reality Is on September 15, 2011

    Copy that. Tard baby. Oink.

    fedupwithmorons :
    JEN, REALITY IS GREAT AT MISSING POINTS, HE IS JUST RETARDED AND CAN’T HELP HIMSELF.

  87. #271 by Justice for ALL on September 16, 2011

    Reality Is :
    Thank you for the compliments.
    Pre paid legal is terrible FYI.

    @Reality Is,
    You shamelessly continue to prove the fact that you are a true legend in your own mind.

    • #272 by Reality Is on September 16, 2011

      Oh. Blush. Thank you.

      • #273 by Justice for ALL on September 16, 2011

        NO compliment was ever inferred, nor intended.

        I guess, for you, it must be so nice to have NO conscience whatsoever, and to just believe that everything is just yellow happy smiley faces, lollipops and jokes all the time.

        Even though an innocent, helpless, unarmed, mentally ill man has been brutally, viciously and mercilessly bludgeoned and Tasered to death, while he screamed for his Dad to save him, you seem to continually find the whole subject to be very humorous and entertaining.

        Instead of expressing any heartfelt concern or sympathy for the victim and his family, you defend the murderers and you defame Kelly Thomas and his family.

        And, as if that wasn’t enough, you insult the grieving family, and all good citizens, with your constant disingenuous drivel.

        How nice it must be for you to NOT have any concerns about the horrific suffering and the brutal death sustained by an innocent, mentally ill, unarmed man.

        How nice it must be for you that you apparently have NO nightmares that keep you awake at night when you think of Kelly screaming for God and his dad to help him.

        How convenient it must be for you that you have NO compassion at all for the pain and suffering of Kelly Thomas’ family and friends, nor for the witnesses to this brutal murder.

        How convenient and nice it must be for you- that YOU ARE A NARSISSISTIC SOCIOPATH!

  88. #274 by Norm Walt on September 16, 2011

    You people out there in Fullerton are so friggin insensitive that it makes me feel ashamed to be of the human race. A man is MURDERED by your police department and you make jokes about it. What if this was your brother, your son, your father, would you still post such stupid bullshit??

    • #275 by fedupwithmorons on September 18, 2011

      NO WALT, YOUR STATEMENT DOES NOT RING TRUE, THERE WERE MANY FULLERTONIANS AS WELL AS OUT OF TOWNERS AT BOTH THE PROTESTS AND BENEFIT CONCERT ON SATURDAY! NOT TRUE!

  89. #276 by Norm Walt on September 16, 2011

    You people out there in Fullerton are so friggin insensitive that it makes me feel ashamed to be of the human race. A man is MURDERED by your police department and you make jokes about it. What if this was your brother, your son, your father, would you still post such stupid bullshit??

  90. #277 by peanut on September 18, 2011

    Does anyone have any idea when we will be hearing from the DA?

    • #278 by fedupwithmorons on September 18, 2011

      MAYBE ON MONDAY THEY WILL ANNOUNCE CHARGES AGAINST CINCINELLI, MAYBE HAMPTON. THAT IS WHAT I HEARD THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE.

  91. #279 by Dan Williams on September 18, 2011

    I’m confused. Has the coroner not released a cause of death yet? What the hell is going on?

  92. #280 by fedupwithmorons on September 18, 2011

    EVERYONE KNOWS THIS: KELLY DIED FROM BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA, ASPYXIATION AND EXSANGUINATION.

    THAT MUCH CAN BE MADE FROM THE PHOTOS AND DR STATEMENTS. THE CORONER IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME OUT WITH FINDINGS SIMILAR TO WHAT THE DR’S AT THE HOSPITAL DIAGNOSED.

  93. #281 by fedupwithmorons on September 18, 2011

    [police oversight] Two former New Orleans police officers sentenced for role in 2005 fatal beating
    TO: 1 More1 recipientCC: recipientsYou MoreHide Details FROM:jaysonw2002 TO:policeoversight@yahoogroups.com Message flagged Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:54 PMMessage body
    Published: Thursday, September 15, 2011, 10:15 PM Updated: Thursday, September 15, 2011, 10:16 PM
    By Brendan McCarthy, The Times-Picayune

    Former New Orleans police officer Melvin Williams was sentenced Thursday in federal court to more than 21 years in prison for fatally beating and kicking a man six years ago on a Treme street corner and working with his partner to cover it up. The partner, Matthew Dean Moore, a rookie cop just two months out of the New Orleans Police Department academy, will serve more than five years in prison for his role in the conspiracy and for later lying to federal agents.

    New Orleans police officers Melvin Williams, left, and Dean Moore are charged in the 2005 beating death of Raymond Robair.

    Both men, jailed since their convictions in April, stood in court Thursday in prison jumpsuits and declined to make any statements. Their attorneys have vowed to appeal the jury’s verdict.

    Before issuing his ruling, U.S. District Court Judge Eldon Fallon listened to relatives of Raymond Robair profess their love for the 48-year-old Treme handyman and the loss they felt following his fateful encounter with police.

    Dacia Mitchell, Robair’s granddaughter, said the family was not sure “there is a penalty great enough” for the officers who “robbed of us the joy” Robair brought to their lives.
    “Maybe they thought that no one would care about Raymond,” Robair’s daughter Judonna Mitchell said later. “Maybe they thought no one loved Raymond enough to fight to hold them accountable for causing his death.”

    Shortly afterward, outside the courthouse after the ruling, the Mitchells smiled and announced that justice, after six difficult years, had been served.

    U.S. Attorney Jim Letten said the sentences should serve as a message: prosecutors “will not tolerate any abuse of our citizens” by those “who wear the badge.”

    Raymond Robair’s family reacts to convictions of NOPD officers in his beating death
    Raymond Robair’s mother and daughter talk about the conviction of two NOPD officers in Federal Court for his 2005 beating death.

    He credited Robair’s family for their resolve and said he hopes a day comes when they can say they trust the police.

    Williams, 50, was known on the streets as “Flat-Top,” a nod to his hairstyle. He was legendary among cops and criminals for his high output of arrests and presence in the city’s high-crime areas.

    Moore, 38, was a rookie, just 77 days out of the academy, when placed under Williams’ tutelage. He was a hulking former semi-professional hockey player with the New Orleans Brass, eager to rise through the police ranks in his adopted city and eventually become a federal drug enforcement agent.

    On the morning of July 30, 2005, the two were traveling through Treme, working an overtime shift under a community policing grant.
    Robair was preparing to repair the vent on a neighbor’s roof. For reasons that are still unclear, the officers converged on Robair in the 1500 block of Dumaine Street.
    Witnesses said Williams administered a fatal kick, amid a flurry of baton strikes. Within minutes, the officers dumped Robair at Charity Hospital, telling staffers they found him on the ground under a bridge and believed he had overdosed on drugs.

    Robair was soon dead. Pathologists found his ribs fractured and his spleen lacerated.
    Both officers testified they never slammed, struck, kicked or punched Robair. They said Robair ran from them and fell hard to the street, though some aspects of their narrative, contained in early police reports, statements and testimony at trial, have clashed.
    The officers testified they found a bag of powder cocaine, wet with saliva, near Robair and they believed he overdosed.

    Prosecutors questioned why the duo didn’t document the trip to Charity Hospital on a NOPD log or why they failed to radio a police dispatcher upon leaving the hospital. Neither officer responded to a radio broadcast seeking out the officers who took the disabled man to the hospital.

    The jury’s foreman later told The Times-Picayune it was clear that a simple slip and fall to the pavement had not caused Robair’s extensive injuries and that the officers were lying.
    On Thursday, relatives of the convicted officers sat on one side of the courtroom, and Robair’s relatives on the other.

    Williams, who faced a maximum sentence of life in prison, stood first before Fallon. His attorney, Frank DeSalvo, argued that the sentencing range of 21 to 27 years, as recommended by probation officers, was excessive. Fallon dismissed the arguments, sentencing him to 262 months — more than 21 years — in prison, and ordering him to pay more than $11,000 in restitution to Robair’s family.

    Williams’ shoulders slumped. Deputies escorted him from the room. Tearful relatives and supporters shuffled outside as someone yelled, “We love you Melvin.”
    After a five-minute recess, it was Moore’s turn. He faced up to 25 years in prison, though probation officers recommended a sentence of nine to 11 years.

    Fallon accepted some of objections of Moore’s attorney, Edward Castaing. The judge acknowledged that Moore’s lack of experience and status on the force, as well as his role in the incident, made him a less culpable participant.

    Larry Landon, a retired pro hockey player who now heads the Professional Hockey Players’ Association, lobbied the judge for leniency, saying Moore left a job in hockey to serve the city of New Orleans and better the community.

    Fallon, before handing down the sentence, noted that Moore was at the beating. “He did nothing.” The judge added that Moore was also at the hospital and witnessed the lies. “He did nothing.” Fallon announced that a 70-month prison term befit Moore’s crimes.

    The Robair civil rights trial, one of several recent federal prosecutions of New Orleans police officers, differs distinctly from the other recent high-profile cases. It occurred a month before Hurricane Katrina and the flood played little role in the case.

    The FBI opened a probe into Robair’s death in 2005, working in tandem with NOPD detectives and lead investigator Sgt. Gerard Dugue, who cleared the officers of any wrongdoing. Relying on the detectives’ work, the FBI initially closed its Robair case file in 2006, according to court filings.

    Dugue has since come under intense federal scrutiny for allegedly whitewashing investigations and is set to stand trial in January for his role in the police cover-up of the Danziger Bridge shootings.

    The FBI ultimately reopened its investigation into the Robair case in 2008, around the time that federal investigators began delving deeply into the Danziger case and obtained new statements and evidence, according to court filings.

    David Welker, special agent in charge of the FBI’s New Orleans division, said Thursday that the case got lost in the shuffle after Katrina and got a renewed look in light of the heightened federal scrutiny of the NOPD.

    Welker said the case held a common theme of the federal NOPD prosecutions: officers “screw up, cover up, and hope no one finds out.” He said reforms need to get the NOPD to a place where officers do the right thing when no one is looking.

    Brendan McCarthy can be reached at bmccarthy@timespicayune.com or 504.826.3301.

  94. #282 by CJ on September 20, 2011

    Okay, CBS just reported that we will get the crap from the DA that we have all been waiting for….. The citizens of Fullerton will not be happy and the video that we have been waiting for has been reported to show nothing and we still won’t get to see it. There will be no arrests tomorrow in the beating Death of Kelly Thomas. Ron Thomas has been asked not to be at the press conference tomorrow at 11 am…..

  95. #283 by barthyna on November 3, 2011

    mr. cabaniss does not know that excessive force is written in the policies and procedures manual(opm) of every cop shop in the united states. and the cops are trained supposedly not to use excessive force. one reason when jay had to leave lapd, is because lapd had doj(department of justice)come in and went through their department. here is the website for soj where you can look at their agreements:http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/findsettle.php#Police%20Misconduct%20Settlements.

  96. #284 by Fullerton3 on December 14, 2011

    “Friends for Fullerton’s Future supports candidates and causes that promote intelligent, responsible and accountable government in Fullerton and Orange County”?

    This website is pretty unprofessional and biased. What’s up with the name calling, I will tell you all one thing, replacing the current government with who ever you goon’s are advocating for would be another case of the lesser of two evils. This website reads like a bunch of paranoid Faux News Goons, thank God we are moving away from the death penalty. Half of you’s would be sitting around picnicking like in the 1700′s while somebody was hanging to death. Rebuild the city up, quit tearing it down. You want responsible government how about responsible blogging, you people are not reporters.

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