Liberals, Progressives and the Fullerton Recall

We got our hands on this editorial from CSUF professor Jonathan Taylor after it was rejected for publication by the Fullerton Observer, apparently because they will not run letters in support of or against the recall (unless you pay for an advertisement, that is.)

Well, we have no such limitations. Enjoy!

Liberals and progressives should support the Fullerton recall.

As a longtime supporter of progressive politics and Democratic candidates, I call on all liberal and progressive voters to put party politics aside and support the Fullerton recall.

The reasons are simple.  Our nation is undergoing an epidemic of police brutality.  More police departments are currently under investigation by the US Justice Department than at any time in history. The excessive force used in the crackdown on the Occupy movement last fall was a wakeup call (for anyone not from Fullerton).  The Kelly Thomas killing and the protest movement it has led to and which has its clearest political expression in the Fullerton recall is thus not just a local issue.  Communities, activists, and law enforcement agencies around the country are watching the unprecedented non-partisan, grassroots movement against police violence that has seemingly come out of nowhere to directly challenge our rogue police department and city political establishment.  Liberals and Democrats can be on the right side of history and support this movement, or they can side with the forces of oppression and resistance to meaningful reform. The choice has never been more clear.

Two main arguments have been put forward against the recall. One is based on a falsehood, the other on misplaced priorities.

The falsehood is that because businessman and blogger Tony Bushala has funded much of the recall effort out of his own pocket, that somehow “Fullerton is for sale” and that Bushala stands to make a sizeable fortune out of this investment.  It is wise to be cynical about business influence on politics – take for example former Fullerton mayor, recall opponent, and astounding redevelopment beneficiary Dick Ackerman. But nobody has been able to demonstrate how Bushala’s businesses – which largely restore historic buildings – would benefit financially from the recall.  Anybody who has taken the time to talk with Tony Bushala, or to read the blog that he and city council candidate Travis Kiger run understands that what drives their efforts is outrage, not the prospect of financial gain.

This outrage is outrage we ALL should be feeling regardless of party affiliation or ideology.  Kelly Thomas was not the first victim of police brutality in Fullerton; I personally have talked with three other individuals, each with a shockingly horrific tale of violent and unjustified treatment at the hands of Fullerton police, and there are countless other victims dating back decades. But the killing of Kelly Thomas is unique in its brutality – it is one of the worst acts of police violence this country has seen, far surpassing for instance the brutality and severity of the Rodney King beating.

The misplaced priority is the idea that this outrage is somehow too much. The recall movement and the street protestors have been referred to as a “lynch mob,” as if the anger and determination for change aroused by seeing Kelly Thomas’s bloodstains on the pavement and hearing his desperate screams and cries as he was literally beaten and crushed to death are somehow “improper.”   Members of the community and longstanding local political figures, many of them Democrats, have appealed to a sense of propriety and gentility as a rationale to oppose the recall.  This is beyond contemptible. A breach of decorum cannot be compared to brutality, torture, and murder. I am at a loss as to how members of our community can fail to understand this.

Anger is an appropriate emotion when a situation of dramatic injustice is exposed. This anger is being appropriately channeled into a movement which calls for the replacement of the city leadership with ballots, not pitchforks. What better sign of the maturity of a movement could there be?  Whether the city council members up for recall were directly responsible for the escalating police violence and brutality that led to Kelly Thomas’s death, or whether they simply failed to respond adequately to the challenges of an out-of-control police department are reasonable issues for debate.  What is not debatable is that the entire country, if not the world, is watching a citizens’ revolt against the Fullerton police; that this movement is primarily (though not completely) led by Libertarians and Republicans; and that liberals and progressives are faced with a stark choice: support candidates who promise to clean up our police department and prevent these atrocities from happening again, or support the status quo.  Any person who would let partisanship, propriety, or political affiliation dictate their vote at this point in Fullerton is a person without moral backbone or principal.  It just so happens that the council members being recalled are Republicans.  Were they Democrats, Greens, Communists, Libertarians, Whigs, Black Panthers or Mugwumps it wouldn’t matter – they must go.

Progressive voters need to remember their values. Core liberal and progressive values include support for human rights, social justice, civil liberties, and compassion for the downtrodden. That means we do not tolerate rogue police officers killing schizophrenic homeless men in our midst; assaulting innocent college students for fun; making false arrests to cover their incompetence and violence; arresting and torturing citizens because they showed insufficient respect and the other atrocities that have been uncovered as our citizenry diligently investigates our local police. Last summer I was startled to discover that Libertarians and Republicans, at least the good ones, not only agree with this, they’re actually motivated to do something about it.  In fact, they have led the charge, and they deserve our support.

There are many good candidates for city council who demonstrate their unequivocal commitment to the values I mention above, and they are not largely Democrats. Liberal and progressive Democratic voters must work with Republicans and Independents to replace the current city council with individuals who echo the community’s legitimate outrage and demonstrate commitment to true reform.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Taylor
Professor of Geography
California State University, Fullerton

147 Replies to “Liberals, Progressives and the Fullerton Recall”

  1. Thank you Jonathon for the reminder of what motivates Tony and Travis and for this comprehensive, articulate message.

  2. FULLERTON, Jonathan Taylor: I understand columnist David Whiting’s attempts to understand the furor in Fullerton from Mayor E. Richard Jones’, Mayor pro tem Don Bankhead’s and Pat McKinley’s point of view, but he misses a crucially important point [“Fullerton councilmen quietly discuss fury,” Front page, Oct. 21]. The Fullerton Police Department’s pattern of police brutality and misconduct predate the Kelly Thomas killing. In just the past few years, Fullerton police officers have faced allegations of assault, false arrest, perjury, theft, sexual abuse and, now, murder.
    To most of us living in the city of Fullerton, it is obvious that there is a serious problem with the entire police department culture. The anger against these three members of the City Council is related to the fact that two of them were Fullerton police officers. As such, former chief McKinley in particular is culpable for the Fullerton police’s attitude of being above the law. Mayor Jones, though not a former cop, even made statements at a City Council meeting to the effect that the Fullerton police should get tough on the bar patrons of downtown Fullerton.
    While their silence on the Kelly Thomas case can be excused as adhering to legal advice, there is no good explanation for their denial of the seriousness of all of these other incidents. Rather than praising the police force as a “magnificent agency” these city councilmen should request that the Department of Justice conduct a full investigation into the troubling pattern of behavior by Fullerton police.
    The refusal to admit, much less take responsibility for, the pattern of police abuse in Fullerton is what has led to this recall, which should, and, I believe, will be, ultimately successful.

  3. A) Each of the three recall candidates was heavily supported financially, physically, and emotionally by each and every one of the public employees unions in Fullerton.

    B) The union spokesman brag about how they select city council candidates that will cater to their members interests.

    C) Whose protecting the publics interests?

    RECALL RECALL RECALL RECALL RECALL RECALL RECALL

  4. Mr. Taylor makes an interesting observation.
    ” Members of the community and longstanding local political figures, many of them Democrats, have appealed to a sense of propriety and gentility as a rationale to oppose the recall. This is beyond contemptible. A breach of decorum cannot be compared to brutality, torture, and murder. I am at a loss as to how members of our community can fail to understand this.”

    The problem
    The three Dinosaurs Ignorance, Apathy, and Greed
    http://www.progress.org/fold21.htm

    What can a social reformer do about these root causes? Henry George pointed to the answer, that sympathy is potentially a much stronger motivating force than self-interest:

    Kelly has put a face on whats wrong with our politics.~
    Hopefully the recent events in our community and in the media will bring us back to our senses.

    “To remedy our social ills….
    replace ignorance, apathy and greed with
    knowledge, sympathy, and charity.”

  5. Yes but this blog doesn’t allow valid questions that may be critical of their supported candidates to ever be seen here since they get deleted. Specifically questions about finances of candidates and if they have had BK’s.

    1. If you have evidence of a candidate’s financial problems, please share. Otherwise, you are full of shit.

    2. Oh they allow questions. But just because you demand something don’t mean you’re going to get it.

    3. So, who’s had a bankruptcy? Mr. Bushala was not shy about reporting on Fullerton attorney and former two time council candidate Aaron Gregg

  6. The observer has been running anti recall articles every month hidden as “picture of the month” and other such nonsense.

  7. What Mr. Taylor is finally realizing is that Dems (liberals) in power are no more well meaning and innocent than Repubs (conservatives) in power.

    1. House Passes Republican Amendment Backing Indefinite Detention For Terror Suspects On U.S. Soil

      By Eli Clifton on May 18, 2012 at 11:06 am

      Protesters in Minneapolis oppose the current NDAA
      The House of Representatives this morning took a hard line against efforts by Democrats and libertarian Republicans to limit the president’s power to indefinitely detain terrorism suspects captured in the U.S.

      An amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) by Reps. Adam Smith (D-WA) and Justin Amash (R-MI) would have barred military detention of terrorism suspects arrested in the U.S. regardless of their nationality. Smith outlined the argument for his amendment last night:

      What we’ve learned in the last 10 years is one power [the president] does not need the power to indefinitely detain or place in military custody people in the United States. Our justice system works.

      But House Republicans hit back hard at the bipartisan amendment, attacking it as providing additional rights to foreign terrorists. This morning, the House defeated the Smith-Amash amendment in favor of a competing amendment sponsored by Reps. Jeff Landry (R-LA), Louie Gohmert (R-TX) and Scott Rigell (R-VA). Their amendment, which passed this morning, prohibits the government from denying U.S. citizens their constitutional rights.

      Amash slammed the all-Republican sponsored amendment as doing nothing but providing political cover for House Republicans who disingenuously claim to care about civil liberties, telling his House colleagues last night:

      The first part of the amendment does nothing. In other words, if you have constitutional rights, then you have constitutional rights.

      While the battle in Congress over the detention provisions in the NDAA may have come to an end with the defeat of the Smith-Nash amendment and the passage of the competing Republican amendment, legal and political challenges may await the NDAA in the very near future.

        1. Diamond’s got his own terminology, which I disagree with. But I like to call Royce/Ackerman/Hollow Logs “Establishment Republicans” and you guys “Insurgent Republicans.”

          Is that acceptable?

          1. For the record, I call the factions (to the extent that they affiliate with the party at all) “Traditional Republicans” and “Libertarian Republicans.” So it’s not a huge gulf.

        2. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You can call them bad Republicans — despite the fact that their ideology is completely consistent with that of most Republican officerholders in the state and nationwide — but you don’t actually have the power to erase them from your party.

      1. The comment in question is intended to convey agreement with Professor Taylor’s essay. “Word” is a colloquialism that dates back at least two decades. I feel the need to balance off my loquacious brother Greg Diamond with unprecedented brevity. Capiche?

  8. Liberals and progressives should support the Fullerton recall.

    Great article by Jonathon Taylor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Agreed it will be seen by thousands if not millions on this blog…but I think it should also be seen in the Orange County Weekly, Register, LA Times, and mentioned on the John and Ken Show. If one wanted to help get it publicized elsewhere, are we at liberty to do that by the author?

  9. What flavor shall I serve today? I’m almost out because you all drink it so fast’

  10. Editor of the Fullerton Observer and highly successful , well-known artist, Sharon Kennedy has been trained not to bite the hand that feeds her.
    Professor Taylor seems to assume that it is natural for progressive Democrats to side with human decency while the Republicans’ intent is to exploit humanity for their cliques profit.
    Our city council members, police force and city employees lack of humanity is evidenced by the revelation of civil rights abuses, illegal taxes and misuse of redevelopment funds with possible kickbacks to explain their preferences

    1. continued, I admire Professor Taylor breaking ranks with our town’s progressives who refuse to end their crony connections with the current members on our city council. and Taylor’s actions are rooted in his ethics and morals tht connects him with the rest of humanity.

      1. Thank you van. I agree with you except that I do not think it is natural for progressive Democrats to side with human decency. Wanting them to and thinking that they actually will are quite different things. I may have thought that once upon a time but no longer.
        best,
        Jon

        1. Wow, Jon — OK, so labeling you a “progressive” writing this letter would seem to be a bit inaccurate, right?

          1. As I said in my piece, I have been a longtime supporter of progressive policies and candidates. Past tense. Van said I think it natural for progressive Democrats to side with human decency. But if that was the case we wouldn’t have “progressives” who support a President who kills kids with drone attacks every few days. There is no decency in that. I would like progressives to be more decent, but as long as they aren’t, I’m not going to pretend they are.

            1. There was a bit on the Daily Show with Wyatt Cenac and Mic Foley giving a description of Republicans and Democrats. It’s like wrestling…acting as if they despise each other and yet behind closed doors they are BFFs. All self serving and for one purpose – NWO.

            2. That’s your business — all I’m looking for is truth in labeling. If you’re no longer a progressive, that’s the truth for the label.

              1. It sounds to me like a semantic quibble. His values are still progressive, but he’s been disappointed with a lot of people who call themselves progressive. Same thing happened with the word liberal.

                And I never heard Obama call himself progressive anyway.

                1. I don’t know if I’m progressive because there is little agreement on what that means. Draw a Venn diagram where what people call progressive and libertarian beliefs overlap and that’s mainly where I stand. I’m a bit more progressive rather than libertarian on environmental issues, but I’m more libertarian on civil liberties, militarism, prisons, etc. Anyway I don’t want this thread to be about me because frankly I’m not important. I’m not running for office. And I think labels are unhelpful.

  11. Excellent! You are right about everything.

    I was raised in a family of Democrats, and one of the people I cherish most was a Republican. My own father was a Democrat and spouted all kinds of nonsense because he believed it was rooted in liberal ideologies. I belong to neither party because I want to vote my conscience. Maybe I just have had enough of partisanship and it’s divisive nature.

    I am very proud of the citizens of Fullerton who have very obviously been making changes in the city.

    What I see is that the outrage people feel about Kelly’s murder cuts across all racial, cultural, socioeconomic, political and class boundaries.

    Shame on anyone for toeing the party line when it comes to the corruption in Fullerton.

    1. That is why I voted (already sent in my absentee ballot) for Matt Rowe. He claims to be independent. Kind of refreshing.

  12. Like I stated Tuesday Evening -HITLER DID NOTHING ILLEGAL and the laws in this nation are being LAID DOWN LIKE THE HIGHWAY TO HELL. Folks you better wake up. This is a nice journalistic gift to the public. It all hangs in the balance right now. The nation teeters. Things are NOT OK. The symptoms are becoming more and more evident as the disease spreads. We are Americans and balkanization cannot work if we are awake. We can thank the sadistic fools in our city government for the pitcher full of expresso. Take a shot of reality, tell a friend and vote these guys out.

  13. Jon, I think that it’s clear that the “traditional Republican” majority — the Ackerman, Royce, Huff wing of the party — can’t be allowed to retain control of the Council. That can be accomplished, though, by as little as recalling only McKinley.

    Beyond that, we have to look at the alternatives presented. I think that, for the next six months, a deadlocked council (with a working majority of Whitaker, Quirk-Silva, and one person compatible with at least one of them) might be best for the city. I like five candidates, the three Dems, Jane, and Matt — any of them would be enough to assure necessary changes to the FPD.

    As for the FFFF trio, it is still not clear, even at this late date, what they would do with their power. Tony hates taxes and seems to hate municipal government — and his candidates seem to be following his lead. How would this translate into policy? Would this become a Costa Mesa-style “revolution”? Are they going to try to bust the public employee uinions — and if so how? They’re not really campaigning on these issues — despite my trying to smoke them out — and liberals and progressives really need to know what they have in mind.

    I don’t want Bankhead left in his seat — but if his presence as a “tie vote” (if, say, Chaffee and Kiger are both elected) prevents something wildly irresponsible and regressive from happening to the City, then his presence could be suffered for a while longer. On the things that really mattered, he’d be on the short end of a 4-1 vote. But until we know what Kiger, Sebourn, and Levinson will really do if they win, I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude that progressives should vote to recall more than McKinley.

    The three FFFF candidates could win progressive votes simply by stating how far they are and aren’t willing to go if elected. If they want progressive support they should allay progressive fears. If they pledged not to go nuts, I’d say sure, recall all three. But until then, recalling Jones and Bankhead as well as McKinley (who again has got to go) is a choice between a bad alternative and the possibility of a worse one.

    By the way — watch what happens in response to this comment to get a sense of why progressives have every reason to worry about this crew.

    1. Greg, why do you have such a fetish for municipal government?

      Most rural and semi-urban areas of the United States have limited or non-existent municipal governments and public employee unions. And yet, the people living in these areas are often happier than we are.

      So, as usual, I’m struggling to comprehend a cogent train of thought coming from you.

      1. I wouldn’t call it a fetish. I’d call it a recognition of its critical role in a city of 135,000+ like Fullerton. Can it be abused — can money be shoved out to fatcat contributors? Absolutely — and watchdogs like Tony can play an important role of preventing that. But the treatment need not be amputation.

        I don’t think that you’re right about “most rural and semi-urban areas” in the U.S., having lived in a couple. Government is often at the county rather than city level, but counties there are much smaller than they are here in Southern California and far less populous. (Orange County is roughly the population of all of Iowa.) I take it from your comment that you don’t think that public employees need any protection from unions; there we just have to disagree.

        I’m sorry that you’re struggling and I wish you better luck.

        1. What would you define as a critical role? Police/Fire/Public Works?

          I generally dislike unions because they inevitably feel entitled to more of everything. More money, more benefits, more worker protections — no matter what the cost to ordinary citizens.

          This is the part you don’t seem to grasp too well. People in the public sector make far more than the private sector when taking into consideration their education, expertise, and work experience. Liberals such as yourself supposedly are about fairness and equality, but this one concept seems to eludes you.

          My second objection to public employee unions is the fact that people footing the bill — me and you and everybody else — have no say in their compensation, benefits, or employee protections. It’s kind of like taking your car to the shop and having a third party negotiate with the mechanic how much you’re going to pay for repairs. I wouldn’t like that and neither would you.

          1. I don’t think he understands what the word unsustainable means and therefore he justifies the current system that was designed to corrupt those in authority,designed to fail and bankrupt us. He like so many other fools cant fathom that austerity is already here and is being hidden behind gargantuan electronic soup kitchen lines. The current militarization of law enforcement, which by the way is in full swing, being solemnly backed by legislation, is in anticipation of when the zeros get erased in the cloud. Oh but that is a conspiracy theory. It is all in my head just like there is not a damn thing to eat within 150 miles of here if the stores run out of food. Don’t worry because Greg will let them eat cake.

          2. If I could prove to you that you were wrong about public sector workers making far more than the private sector, would you give up your argument? Because if it wouldn’t, it doesn’t matter.

            Is it also your sense that commercial interests — or issue or ideological interests — DON’T “inevitably feel entitled to more of everything”? Like more profits — “no matter what the cost to ordinary citizens”?

            1. Some years ago, I left the private sector to work in the public sector – I took a pay reduction of about 25 percent from my private sector job.

              To paraphrase – there are “many shades of grey” in public v. private pay schedules. Don’t blindly believe/assert that public sector employees are paid more than private sector employees.

              1. Full disclosure: As faculty at a public University I am a member of a public employee union, the CFA. (One of the least effective public unions on earth, but still a public employee union). So far they have managed to negotiate us a 0.0% salary increase for the last 4 years. I know the state is in trouble so I understand. But I agree with peaches, all public unions are not the same. And, not complaining, but just for the record, I make a lot less per year then at least one iPad stealing 25-year old former officer of the FPD.

            2. The big difference between public and private are the killer pensions public employees get.

      2. That the key rural semi rural. They don’t run police and fire depts, don’t have to worry about zoing, don’t have libraries. That’s why they don’t have municipal govt — there is no municipal to govern.

    2. if possible, Mr. Diamond, please, elaborate on McKinley’s connections with Ackerman,Royce and Huff. I’m not challenging you to prove your assertions. Instead, it may be another piece in the puzzle I have tried to solve for over a year.

      1. Mr Diamond: are you serious? My husband and I realized that ALL of our friends who are retired (in their early 60’s) worked in the public sector (parole agent, teacher,fire, etc). The rest of us cannot afford to retire because we are saving for retirement ourselves and don’t have a union to negotiate a fat pension for us. And don’t give me that crap about the deductions from their paychecks paid for that. If that were the case, cities, counties and states would not be looking at billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities for future pensions. And what about the union protection for bad employees who we can’t fire? Why do you think those bad cops in Fullerton where still there even though it was well known that some were ticking time bombs? I do not understand those who do not believe the public unions are a serious threat to out nation. Time to recall all three and replace them with candidates who understand these serious issues and are wiling to do something about it!

        1. Yes, I’m serious. While I am open to the notion that there may be abuses to the system in some situations — especially at upper echelons and especially where public safety unions don’t deliver the excellent quality of employee that we have reason to expect for the compensation — I do not think that public employee unions are “the problem,” and I am concerned that conservative and libertarian don’t care much about anyone’s pension — unless they’re rich.

          1. Greg while revenues decline, jobs expatriate, environmental stranglehold laws abound and taxpayers can pay no more, who will pay the $500 million and growing in unfunded pension liabilities for our union crews here in Fullerton? Do we have a central bank here in town? A printing press? Or will we put our entire local population on a treadmill and make them generate electricity and sell it to Edison-what is the way out of this mess? Inquiring minds want to know.

            1. Uh, the same way other cities do?

              You know that pension liabilities are generally “unfunded,” right? Hell, anything involving credit is “unfunded.” My problem is that people hired employees for less money with the promise of deferred compensation — and now they want to renege on the deal once they’ve taken advantage of it.

              Is “honor your promises” that radical a notion for you?

              1. All of your presuppositions assume past performance is indicative of future results. Are you that delusional? We are in uncharted territory. This economy is being driven off of a cliff and you act like a kid in the back seat watching a disney cartoon on a dvd player in the headliner. Weimar Germany had promises to honor and they were by the wheelbarrow full.

              2. What unadulterated horseshit. Nobody was hired for less money. That’s old canard. Public employees make more than their private sector counterparts – from tree trimmers to paper pushers. And they are unaccountable and impossible to fire.

                1. You’re wrong, but all of the independent thinkers who are reading this can ready your views and decide how they feel about being on your side of the argument.

                1. What does “promise” mean to you? Do you want to get out of the existing ones? How?

                  Are there any defined benefit pensions programs you do like?

    3. In other words, wake up people! Putting your face on flyers and leaving them on doorknobs will not win the majority. Especially when called out on plans of action. I commend Greg for mentioning how he vets candidates. Do some research and you’ll find the answer of why anyone who has worked for a magic kingdom should have their motives questioned.

    4. Of the FFFF trio as you call them, I have only talked with Travis and very briefly with Barry. I do not get the sense that they favor the Costa Mesa approach. This would be a good question to ask them, and some journalist or blogger should do so and publish the interview.

      Some public employee unions pose an enormous problem, particularly police, and statewide, prison guards. They lobby for tougher laws and longer prison sentences for non-violent crimes; for increased militarization of law enforcement; and for immunity from prosecution and disciplinary action. Frankly, they also get paid too much and have too generous pensions. All of this is against the public’s interest. Most importantly, police unions have created a situation in which rogue officers or departments cannot be scrutinized and held accountable. This must be changed. I don’t care if its Democrats or Republicans who make these changes, but around here, it seems that Republicans and Independents are far more likely to challenge these unions and the rules they have managed to get implemented at the state level.

      I support some of the same candidates that you do. But I don’t agree that just recalling McKinley would be sufficient to make the necessary changes to the FPD. The person I trust most on police issues is Travis Kiger, as he knows the most about the subject and has been paying attention to the FPD long before almost anybody else realized there was a problem. He is the person who filed the FOIA requests to get documents. He’s the one who knows all about the other police brutality cases; the ones which haven’t even come to light yet. I trust him to protect the rights of all citizens and do everything possible to ensure that policing in Fullerton is professional and free of abuse of power and authority. And since I view that as the most important issue in this election, I will vote accordingly.

      1. Yes, it would be a good question to ask them. Hard to phrase, though. It’s awfully general otherwise.

        I think that prison guards deserve decent working conditions. The notion that they can lobby for more job by putting more people in prison is extremely offensive. But — don’t the prison guards unions give disproportionately to Republicans? (I’ve thought so. I think they do to my opponent.)

        I’ve been working against police brutality for decades and played as big a role as anyone in negotiating with police here (including in Fullerton) to keep our Occupy encampments peaceful and properly treated. I’m sympathetic to the sorts of issues you raise there; I agree in accountability. I don’t agree in ignoring what the law says to demand that people who have no plausibly committed murder be charged with murder, despite that being good politics.

        If that were my single issue, maybe I would support Kiger. But it’s not. Even when it comes to such violent killings, I’m as concerned about the “private” George Zimmerman’s of the world as I am about “public” Jay Cicinelli’s — as well as the fact that the same act can lead to such different legal results based on race (as with the Black Florida woman just sentenced to 20 years for “standing her ground.”) I’ll bet that you don’t see Republicans up in arms about that one.

        1. The prison guard union gave Gray Davis $3 million in donations. They give a lot to Republicans too. Both parties are responsible for the influence prison guards have over public policy. Along with union support for 3 strikes laws, mandatory minimums, jailing non-violent drug offenders (who are the majority of inmates), etc. This disproportionately impacts African Americans, who use drugs at lower rates than whites and are imprisoned for drug crimes at around 7x the rates of whites. This is one area in which libertarian policies if enacted would hugely benefit minorities. Prison guards on average make more than UC assistant professors and can retire at 50. With overtime their pay has been reported to exceed $170,000 annually.

          Public safety unions donate much more to the Dems than Repubs, though they donate to both. California Penal Code sections 832.7 and 832.8 restrict the disclosure of police officer confidential information, including personnel issues, and this was passed with bipartisan support after lobbying by police unions. The investigation into the “pepper spray cop” incident at UC Davis has been hindered because attorneys refuse to release info on the cops. Sound familiar? I talked with a Fullerton criminal defense lawyer who told me that certain officers have numerous complaints but because of POBOR these can’t be viewed.

          The problems with Fullerton police predated Kelly Thomas’s murder. As far as I know, Travis is the person who saw and publicized this first.

          1. One correction – Nick Schou of OC Weekly publicized Fullerton police abuse long before this blog existed.

          2. I oppose their position on 3 strikes, mandatory minimums, etc., for what that’s worth. The Democratic Party has a lot of diversity.

          3. French social theorist Michel Foucault said historically and contemporarily societies often enact laws against persons who are deemed harmful to their society’s economy but do no harm to individuals or theri property..
            These persons engage in victimless crimes but their lack of economic productivity creates an economic double-edged sword. society legally enacts these persons criminals for being economically unproductive and often needing welfare for themselves and their families.
            Case in point is the crack epidemic in African-American neighborhoods . Congresswoman Maxine Waters pushed for stiff sentencing of crack users because she believed these harsher sentences would force crack heads to stop their habit , get a job and support themselves and their families.
            Jon Taylor “This disproportionately impacts African Americans, who use drugs at lower rates than whites and are imprisoned for drug crimes at around 7x the rates of whites.”
            the tradition of western societies legally punishing victimless perps has resulted in today’s society where petty officials and public servants amass too much power in their inept hands that compromises the individual’s rights guaranteed in our Constitution.
            Homeless, schizophrenic Kelly thomas crime was his lack of economic productivity and his presence in the parking lot outside of Slide Bar deterred customers and thus interferred with Slide Bar’s hoped for profits. and without reservations or qualms, the Fullerton PD destroyed the economic drag, a man who never harmed anyone .

            1. I think highly enough of this comment that, if you don’t mind, I’m going to treat you as if we have had no other interactions.

              I’m happy to find that I agree with your whole critique, almost all the way to the end. (I’d want a cite to your claim about Maxine Waters; I’ll bet that it’s more complicated than that, as she knows very well that there weren’t enough jobs for all.)

              Yes, that is what is going on. I think that there might have been a decent civil liberties case to be brought against the city for its policy — and, I stress, the city’s policy (rather than Ramos and Wolfe’s.)

              As Foucault would note, Fullerton is not alone in this sort of practice; in fact, it happens “often.” It’s one of those secrets kept from the American public that is not secret at all to its victims, like the “Secret Bombing” of Cambodia. And when it comes to trial, Ramos and Wolfe will be able to point to that open secret as justification for believing that their roust was OK.

              I think that you go beyond your facts only where you get poetic at the end. It is true that the FPD did destroy the “economic drag” of Kelly Thomas; it is not proven at all that it was the intent of five of the officers there — all but the fool Cicinelli — to do so.

              We could probe this by looking at the result of other such rousts. Ramos and Wolfe may have killed all of the people in Kelly’s position, but I doubt it. They may have taken them somewhere and gratuitously beaten them, although a cop that isn’t sadistic would do that only to deter action, and they knew that Kelly didn’t have much choice.

              Or, they may have just removed Kelly from the area for a while to let the complaint from the Slide Bar fade away, put him in jail, then maybe questioned him and let him back out before arraignment.

              That last possibility is, in my opinion, unconstitutional — but my bet is that it also the most likely (in part because it was the least work with the least chance of blowback.) Bad as it is, it is simply not within an order of magnitude of the active desire to kill someone due to their economic unproductivity. It is an extremely grave charge and should not be made lightly or casually. I think that, like others here, you slide into that conclusion too easily — despite what seems like your greater awareness of the problem.

              Here’s what I’d like to see. I’d bet heavily that there were a fair number of similar rousts in other parts of the city. So let’s see if we have a string of unexplained deaths, a string of mysterious hospital admissions, a string of people kept in jail for a while and then released without charge — which is far more common than the others — or something else.

              I submit that whatever usually happens is what they had intended to happen here — and what would have happened here had it not been for “Barney Fife” Cicinelli showing up with his TASER and his stupidity.

              In that case, it would be right to say that they had “no reservations or qualms” about rousting Kelly and putting him in jail for 45 hours (or whatever) without eventual charge, but it would be completely wrong to assert that they had “no reservations or qualms” about causing his death.

              I think that modesty demands that one not go beyond the former assertion, for now, based on the evidence at hand.

              Thanks again for an excellently written and reasoned comment.

              1. I wax poetic at the end? If Kelly had been leaning on an expensive sports car wearing a Gucci suit , clean cut, weel-groomed drunk threatening to beat the crap out of slide bar customers, the Fullerton PD would have some major reservations about beating him to death because he exuded money and thus power in our society. Kelly was poor, scruffy and crazy and beaten to death by the Fullerton PD

                1. Of course. It’s getting from there to “let’s elect people who won’t promise not to dismantle the city entirely or who think that the OC Sheriff’s Department is fundamentally different” where I lose you.

              2. Check out the “Florida first” campaign in Hemet. No deaths nor reported civil violations, but a coordinated attempt to move the unproductive off of the main drag and then out of town in a city with nearly 25% unemployment.

            2. I think you’re exactly right van. And to make matters worse the crack epidemic wasn’t even really an epidemic. Its use was hugely exaggerated by the media, which directly led to the crack-cocaine sentencing disparity. This then served as an excuse to incarcerate vast numbers of economically marginalized people “for their own good.” Then we need more cops on the street to crack down on the latest dangerous menace, whatever it is. Oh yeah, its meth. Then we can imprison some marginalized rural whites as well. Remember all the times people posted messages on this site that Kelly Thomas was on meth? That was cited as the main excuse for his inexplicable resistance to being killed.

    5. Greg Diamond :
      Beyond that, we have to look at the alternatives presented. I think that, for the next six months, a deadlocked council (with a working majority of Whitaker, Quirk-Silva, and one person compatible with at least one of them) might be best for the city. I like five candidates, the three Dems, Jane, and Matt — any of them would be enough to assure necessary changes to the FPD.
      As for the FFFF trio, it is still not clear, even at this late date, what they would do with their power. Tony hates taxes and seems to hate municipal government — and his candidates seem to be following his lead. How would this translate into policy? Would this become a Costa Mesa-style “revolution”? Are they going to try to bust the public employee uinions — and if so how? They’re not really campaigning on these issues — despite my trying to smoke them out — and liberals and progressives really need to know what they have in mind.
      I don’t want Bankhead left in his seat — but if his presence as a “tie vote” (if, say, Chaffee and Kiger are both elected) prevents something wildly irresponsible and regressive from happening to the City, then his presence could be suffered for a while longer. On the things that really mattered, he’d be on the short end of a 4-1 vote. But until we know what Kiger, Sebourn, and Levinson will really do if they win, I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude that progressives should vote to recall more than McKinley.
      The three FFFF candidates could win progressive votes simply by stating how far they are and aren’t willing to go if elected. If they want progressive support they should allay progressive fears. If they pledged not to go nuts, I’d say sure, recall all three. But until then, recalling Jones and Bankhead as well as McKinley (who again has got to go) is a choice between a bad alternative and the possibility of a worse one.

      Wow, Mr. Diamond, that is about as narrow view as mine, but just a little different. I have been to city council meetings, Q&A forums in the main library, read interviews and watched you tube videos of candidates. So I have seen all of the candidates in some sort of speaking arrangement. And I tell you what, I like Jane, Matt, and Sean. When I was at the LWVNOC candidates forum, Mr. Georgieff had to share his microphone with someone else. He had the courtesy to always hand the mic over but seldomly got the same courtesy from the other guy. By listening to him and seeing his actions, I can tell Mr. Georgieff is well mannered. So how can I not like him as well?

      But when it all comes down to it, Councilman Whitaker has endorsed Kiger, Levinson, Sebourn. I have always thought that we need more people like Councilman Whitaker. Heck, ideally, I would like to clone Bruce alteast two times and see them in the council, but realistically, the next best thing would be to take his endorsements seriously. That doesn’t mean it is automatic. I did go out there and listened to all of them. They all kind of sound the same with the main issues. But it is reassuring that there will be more people like Bruce as a council majority.

      And more importantly, I see nothing to fear from the FFFF candidates. Whatever they do or decide to do I am sure they are willing to talk about it up front as they do on this site. I have always known them to be tranparent as glass. And just because they don’t want to talk to you about it, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t.

      1. “And just because they don’t want to talk to you about it, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t.”

        Good point. And what kind of fool would waste his time (inevitably) arguing with a pompous, out-of-town gas bag who couldn’t deliver a single Fullerton vote.

        1. I wasn’t looking for arguments, I was looking for a statement in answer to a question that I could post in Orange Juice Blog. Sebourn provided one — and yet still he lives.

          What kind of fool would argue with (your depiction of) me? Uh, you?

          1. No, I’m not arguing with you. i’m insulting you. I’m not surprised you can’t tell the difference. Maybe it’s because all speech other than your own is just noise to you.

            1. I’m not surprised that you can’t put up an argument. I am surprised that somehow you seem to be proud of it.

                1. Look at the exchange I just had with “van get it da artiste” a few comments up. On both sides, that was interested, tempered, and useful. I’m sorry that you can’t do it, or that you don’t want to do it, but that’s the sort of discussion I much prefer.

      2. We should note an exception – Mr. Sebourn is remarkably forthcoming, and will answer questions from anyone. He helped me and Diamond run a debate with Ed Royce’s two challengers. It’s only Barry and Travis (who’s my webmaster and used to talk to me frequently) who won’t answer these questions.

        Oh yeah, and that Cardboard guy. He probably thinks it’s some kind of trap.

        1. I watched the cardboard guy Tuesday night dressed in the usual color of the flag-red white and blue- and NOT ONCE did he clap in support of ANY public comments condemning the brutal murder of a homeless man by our police department. That guy is afraid of his own shadow.

          1. I didn’t mention the Cardboard guy because I FEAR of replacing a dino with another dino. But Greg likes him.

            1. How can anyone NOT support condemning those who shed innocent blood? Ahh the cush life of plenty these elitist fools think they have with their fiat currency stored at fractional reserve banks in which the balance sheets are full of CDO’s, Feta cheese and kalamata olive bonds, backed by the FDIC and whose pensions are infested with worthless derivatives whose value is based on a perception manipulated by a central bank that monetizes debt and at whim can collapse the economy -oh the humanity. Oh the red white and blue -oh say can you see by the …. the wine aisle at Trader Joes?
              No thanks. No chicken dinner, no winner.

              1. Can’t this dilemma be eased with quantitative easing? Obviously, Bernanke knows what he is doing?

        2. Maybe Travis is too busy with work, recalling and campaigning to deal with a couple self-important bloggers who don’t have anything to do with Fullerton and who will never support him.

          Just a thought.

          1. Right. Or maybe he just doesn’t want people to know what he might do if elected.

            Tell you what — I’d have been happy with his answering these questions in any media outlet, not just Vern’s.

            1. My Exchange with a Vicious and Bigoted FFFFwad
              By Greg Diamond
              – May 4, 2012Posted in: Fresh Juice, fullerton, racism, Tony Bushala

              “I’ve tried to avoid writing about FFFF nearly as much as I’m tempted to. It’s a fascinating place — suffused with the Tea Party spirit of right-wing Mme. LeFarges, above which the more respectable types like Tony and those running for office present their arguments that the cheering section will repeat like screaming drunken fans.

              Not my cup of tea — but, again, they’re right about some issues and I try to respect that when I visit there. They make no bones of wishing that I would shut up, but it’s still generally without the bounds of normal politics.

              Where I have a problem — there and here — is with vicious personal attacks made from the cloak of anonymity. I know that Dan C., Pedroza, and other bloggers claim to be opposed to them as well, especially when they’re the targets. Normally, I try to respond to something particularly offensive with a comment that undercuts it. Occasionally, something will get deleted, but it’s rare — and when it happens, it’s never (so far) been about me.
              ___________________________________________________

              Greg,

              Do you have a vendetta? Yes, that must be it.

              “screaming drunken fans” ?????

              You make the posters sound like imbeciles. I have been following this blog for many months, and although the trolls keep things lively, there are lots of smarts folks here. Sorry you can’t see that.

              Your continued nitpicking makes you sound desperate. For what, I do not know.

              1. You’re right, there are lots of smart people here — Tony, Greg S., and Travis included — and then lots of right-wing Mme. Defarges who do act like screaming drunken fans. I’m not the one making posters sound like imbeciles, Jane. I’m just not, unlike you, ignoring it or at best smiling at how “the trolls keep things lively.” (Do those people know that you’re calling them trolls?)

                1. “Do those people know that you’re calling them trolls?”

                  Who cares really? It just shows the mindset of the people who can’t or won’t see what is happening in Fullerton.

                  I use my real name by the way. For safety reasons, I don’t use my full last name. You can understand that, can’t you?

                2. I don’t object to people using pseudonyms in most cases. I don’t even mind people using pseudonyms to comment on matters of national affairs; I’ve done that myself for years. What I do mind is people engaging in vicious personal attacks against others in their community from the safety of pseudonyms — not whistleblowing, just hiding in the bushes throwing stones. It’s cowardly and corrosive.

                  I don’t think of you as a particularly nasty poster, although you are off-base up above. Maybe your using most of your real name helps keep you relatively civil. (It doesn’t work for everyone, I realize.)

            2. I’m surprised that people have all of these important questions for Travis and nobody actually asks him then in a legitimate interview. The voters of Fullerton would obviously be interested in knowing if he was planning to dismantle the city government completely if elected. Though I’ve no reason to believe there’s any truth to that assertion.

              I can’t speak for him but most people running for office will take a half hour to answer questions about their positions. I think rather than presupposing these positions someone should set up a formal interview with him, ask these question directly, and then publish the interview.

              Traditional journalism, as it were.

        3. Why is it so damned important to you and Yenta Diamond to try to goad everyone to fall for your agenda?
          You don’t live in Fullerton and don’t have a vote in Fullerton- So why do you need this info?
          So you can twist every sentence and give an 8 page dissertation with “your opinions” in it?

          Jeeze, first its, “give real names when posting or you’re a coward”, now it’s “answer questions for the record”.

          Regardless of what you think of the people on FFFF, or as Diamond Crazy refers to as, “the hive”, no one has to answer any of your questions because you just gotta know the scoop and so you can spread your crazy, get it? and your special “manipulate with guilt” tactic, won’t work either.

          1. Someone explain to merijoe what “running for office” means.

            That succinct enough for you, sunflower?

            1. No, scooter, you explain it to me.

              And regarding your stooge/dingbat reference to me-I know you are, but what am I.

          2. Could it be that Greg’s recent interest in the goings on in Fullerton has been initiated by his pocket book?

            You dont work as a consultant to any current candidate for office do you Greg? Your sudden interest seems too coincidental for me. I’m calling bullshit.

            1. I suppose it could be — but it isn’t.

              I myself am a current candidate for legislative office in a district that includes Fullerton, but I don’t get paid for that. (Pretty much the reverse, in fact.) I consult on my own campaign, but am not paid for it. (The candidate often ignores my advice anyway.)

              I’ve been a very active member for five years in Democrats of North Orange County, which for most purposes turns out to be “Democrats of Fullerton and people interested and people interested in Fullerton,” so it’s not a “recent” interest.

              Part of my interest in engaging FFFF specifically is that lots of people seem scared to wade into this particular site and take people on using their own names because of the viciousness here — and I’m not. Dozens of you echoing each other versus me seems like a pretty fair fight.

                1. Not to my knowledge. If they take anything I’ve written on OJB (or here), they’re welcome to it, though.

  14. I would consider them to be from the non-libertarian wing of the Republican party, very much in opposition to Tony and FFFF.

    1. Ron Thomas you are such a media whore and liar. How many times did Brea PD call you to pick up your son and You told them..Don’t call me his your problem. Wait until the trial comes. Everyone is going to see what father of the year you where.
      “I felt betrayed by the officers”..maybe cause you got kicked out of the police academy, and you are pissed you could never be a cop. Stop claiming to be an Sheriff. You should go to jail for impersonating an police officer.

      1. JD/Randall-so? what does any of that garbage have to do with an innoocent man being murdered? Genius. and prove any of that,

        Why don’t you be the star witness for the defense? since you know so much about everything, and dont forget to bring your proof.

        1. He is loving his lies cause no one has called him on them. And yeah maybe I will be that “star witness” for the defense. I am on the list.

      2. “he’s your problem,” not “his” your problem.

        “father of the year you were” not “where”

        “a Sheriff,” not “an Sheriff.” “An” only precedes words which begin with vowels.

        Likewise with “an police officer.”

        Grade = D+

  15. Oh gosh, Greg. Your “Well, actually…” attitude cheapens the atmosphere here. I think you like to come to FFFF because your post at OC Juice blog get no traction. Your appetite for attention forces you to come back to FFFF, yet you are very critical of the regular FFFF supporters.

    People come here to discuss and express their opinions with like minded people.

    You come here to hear yourself type and be douche that likes to correct anyone for even their smallest mistake.

    You remind me of an engineer I work with. He interrupts when someone is telling a joke just to fill it in with some facts or point out flaws in the joke, not realizing that a joke can be funny because it’s half true or even completely untrue.

    Your parents must be extremely proud of the pompous ass they created.

    1. “Cheapens the atmosphere here”? Very funny.

      I come hear because people other than the few people who comment here read this blog and it’s better for them to hear more than one side of the story. There’s not a lot of “discussion” most of the time; lots of “expression” though. If you think that it should be limited to “like-minded people,” through either cowardice or political calculation, then talk to Tony about that. I’m following the rules as laid out.

      I get lots of feedback off the site about the writing I do here; lots of people thanking me for being willing to do the dirty work, so no, it’s not “to hear myself type.”

      Thanks for writing something about who I remind you of. It’s not interesting, though, because you’re just some anonymous guy who will say anything to make a point, and there’s no reason to pay attention to you. Be well!

      1. “I get lots of feedback off the site about the writing I do here; lots of people thanking me for being willing to do the dirty work”

        If I were you, scout, I wouldn’t be so puffed up like a peacock and strut around like Chicken Hawk of Looney Tunes because of getting some attaboys from coplickin trolls-they would love you if you wrote anything that goes against what anyone says on this blog-they would hail your writing if you said Goodrich and Ramos were doctors.

        1. Just telling it like it is, to counter the people claiming that I’m just here to harsh your collective buzz. I’m writing past you, to the other readers, who I’m told appreciate my not responding to something like you just wrote in kind, tempting though it is.

  16. as a big time lefto commie I totally support the recall. i’m not 100% happy that there is a strong libertarian nutbag contingent attached to this movement (see: how many of you are in support of Our Racist Grandpa Ron Paul), but i also know that i live in orange county and enemies of my enemies are my friend :3

    the idea that any expression of discontent with the status quo is “improper” or that one “loses” by getting mad or caring is an attempt by our oppressors to keep us complicit and keep screwing us over. never shut up, never stop fighting, get angry, and demand justice. if they complain you’re too loud, it’s because they’re afraid–because it’s working.

  17. Gee, I was going say this letter from Jon Taylor has prompted the best sharing of ideas than I’ve seen here — but then ‘I Eat Greg’ posted something.

    1. He’s easy to ignore; I recommend it. Yeah, pretty good discussion. Almost felt like (blog) home.

      1. Really? Almost felt like home? Are you referring to the OC juice blog? It looks like you do most of the talking over there as well. You have very few respondes to your post. The reason I made those comments about you is because you have a very pompous attitude. It was very prominent in earlier replies to other blog post. I’ll give you some credit, your “actuallista” attitude has improved slightly, but not very much.

        But that doesn’t matter. Your still a spin master (aka lawyer)

  18. Greg Diamond :
    I wasn’t looking for arguments, I was looking for a statement in answer to a question that I could post in Orange Juice Blog. Sebourn provided one — and yet still he lives.

    yeah but you are a lawyer and lawyers are good at spinning things the way they want other people to see it. So you could see how candidates could be mindful of what they say to you.
    “yet still he(Sebourn) lives.” So does that mean you let him go easy or did he really dodge your traps in the questions? See my point?

    Greg Diamond :
    What kind of fool would argue with (your depiction of) me? Uh, you?

    Uh, a fool’s fool. haha!

  19. Greg Diamond :
    Look at the exchange I just had with “van get it da artiste” a few comments up. On both sides, that was interested, tempered, and useful. I’m sorry that you can’t do it, or that you don’t want to do it, but that’s the sort of discussion I much prefer.

    Talking to a vegetable is wrong. It’s in the Old Testament.

  20. “Members of the community and longstanding local political figures, many of them Democrats, have appealed to a sense of propriety and gentility as a rationale to oppose the recall. This is beyond contemptible. A breach of decorum cannot be compared to brutality, torture, and murder. I am at a loss as to how members of our community can fail to understand this.”

    Exactly. If we are afraid to speak truth to power then we don’t deserve our democracy.

    1. Well, you’re easily impressed.

      I’m struck, though — if anyone made a crack about the FPD beating someone to death, you’d probably be lathered up like a rabid dog. But people being blown up in Baghdad? Funny to you!

  21. “Here’s what I’d like to see. I’d bet heavily that there were a fair number of similar rousts in other parts of the city. So let’s see if we have a string of unexplained deaths, a string of mysterious hospital admissions, a string of people kept in jail for a while and then released without charge — which is far more common than the others — or something else.”

    Greg Diamond, you heavily bet similar FPD arrests led to detainees hospitalized for FPD inflicted injuries, false imprisonment and suspicious deaths at the hands of FPD . This is a serious accusation that directly affects the community of Fullerton. You say Nick Schou of the OC Weekly has reported prior to the Kelly Thomas death , the FPD’s civil rights abuses. If this abuse has been presented in the media then it has not been an open secret but due to journalistic ethics a fact reported to,the public.
    My question is how was it our local civil rights agencies, law enforcement watchdog groups never confronted the city of Fullerton’s city council persons with these facts, or then Fullerton Police Chief Pat McKinley who retired as FPD chief in 2009? How was the menace to society, the FPD, kept so quiet until the FPD brazenly beat Kelly Thomas to death in full view of,the public on a sidewalk?

    Fullerton.

    1. No, I said that I bet that there had been a fair number of similar rousts. The “roust” was the early part of the tape and it is distinct from the later beating. It was the part where they (in my opinion) misused the law to move Kelly out of the area, based on a pretext, thereby violating his civil liberties.

      How can this go on? Come on, man, you quoted Foucault. It happens all the time — and it’s tolerated because society does not always choose to honor and enforce the guarantees in the constitution. It would be amazing to live in a country where these low level abuses of power DID routinely make the papers.

      All I’m saying is: investigate other such rousts and see what they led to. Frankly, as someone who has been a member of the ACLU and who has worked on cases with Civil Rights and Civil Liberties groups in New York such as the Brennan Center and Center for Constitutional Rights, the problem is that there are just not enough resources to address all of these sorts of problems.

      1. “low level abuses”, you classify false imprisonment, perjury, molestation of female detainees, beatings, and now death as low level, insignificant abuses of power? Illegal 15 percent water tax is low level abuse of power.
        You are back-pedaling and it is disappointing to me that you won’t confront the issue that those who should have or knew the pattern of abuse the FPD inflicted on our community was ignored.
        Yes, I quoted Foucault not to dismiss his professional life-long work as merely another “you can’t fight city hall” example .

          1. See my comment below. Do you really not know what a roust is? I’ll bet that people from lower income classes in Fullerton do. I presume that you just didn’t read my comment carefully enough to see what I was referencing. Otherwise, that would be a really dishonest discussion tactic.

            1. greg, I worked my way out of lower income classes in Fullerton. I have seen friends rousted because we drove falling apart cars to our low paying jobs. And maybe it is this fact that stirs my anger when the elected few and their friends from the mere middle classes decide to play noblesse oblige with the good people of Fullerton and decide for us what is good for us, what we need to know while strong-arming us into acquiescence with a goon squad labeled Fullerton PD.
              Greg, if your desire is to represent the interests of the people, you may want to stop worrying your true thoughts will overshadow your popularity

              1. Congratulations on your accomplishment. So you’re familiar with rousts. They’re rotten — and they’re commonplace in probably most jurisdictions. Assuming that they’re not done violently, are they as rotten as the other things you mention — “false imprisonment, perjury, molestation of female detainees, beatings, and now death”? I’d like to stop rousts — I was part of a big class action suit to do so, but on that list they are not my top priority.

        1. You’re changing the topic. I’m not defending those actions — nor do I ever say so above. I’m saying that a “roust” — an authority forcefully moving a person or people away from somewhere they have a right to be — is, if it remains non-violent, a relatively low-level abuse.

          I put “roust” in boldface in my previous comment so that you wouldn’t miss it. How did you confuse it with molestation &c?

      1. Hey, write me and let me know what you’re talking about. I’m not getting the reference (or the warning.) I don’t think they’ll get cooperation post-recall if any candidate I support replaces any candidate who is recalled.

  22. Jon Taylor :
    I don’t know if I’m progressive because there is little agreement on what that means. Draw a Venn diagram where what people call progressive and libertarian beliefs overlap and that’s mainly where I stand. I’m a bit more progressive rather than libertarian on environmental issues, but I’m more libertarian on civil liberties, militarism, prisons, etc. Anyway I don’t want this thread to be about me because frankly I’m not important. I’m not running for office. And I think labels are unhelpful.

    I know exactly what you mean.

    But I disagree about your importance. The politicians, both acting and pretending, are LES important than YOU or the “people”. Let’s keep it in perspective, shall we.

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