What is Corruption?
That is a rather provocative question, and it came up in a comments thread in another post. The comments were by frequent guest “Vernon Dozier” and our own one-armed gunslinger, Joe Sipowicz. Here’s what they had to say:
#48 by Vernon Dozier on December 22, 2011
There is zero, I repeat zero evidence that the entire Fullerton Police Department is corrupt. Some of the people on this blog have such hatred for police in general they will go after anybody in the department for no reason at all.
I think it’s completely reasonable to point out the faults of the police here, but it needs to be tempered with the GOOD that is done by the GOOD officers of the department. The morale is very bad at the Fullerton PD right now. An insider recently told me that numerous officers are considering employment with other cities. Who’s going to replace them? Who would want to work for Fullerton PD when certain residents – and commenters on this blog – automatically will hate them because of their career choice? The longer people continue with unsubstantiated trash talk, the worse this problem becomes.
Eventually it will get so bad, the only people willing to work for Fullerton PD are clones of Cicinelli and Ramos.
Do you really want that?
#49 by Joe Sipowicz on December 22, 2011
Vernon, your statement rests upon the definition of “corrupt.”
How can so many instances of law-breaking by members of the FPD have occurred without the knowledge and silent acquiescence of the whole crowd. I am not being flip here. We’ve identified around twenty cops with direct knowledge or participation in crimes/coverups. So what was Hughes doing? What was Hamilton doing? What were the rest of the 120 sworn cops doing?
That’s right, going along – for their FPOA brethren, their early retirement and their six-figure pensions.
Is that a form of corruption? You tell me.
Good point, counter point. Do good people look the other way when bad things are being done? Does that make them no longer good? Feel free to share your thoughts.
As to Vernon’s point about good cops not wanting to work in the current environment, that’s hard to argue with. However, I would think that good cops would want to work in an environment where honor really means something. Right now it’s all a sham and almost everyone knows it. And it’s not “trash talk” to call it like it is.
We need a new, zero-tolerance cop culture run by a chief who will not mistake protecting the institution with his real responsibility to the people of Fullerton. Hard to find? probably. Can our current council find the right man, or woman? Unlikely. But it’s a job that needs to be done and soon.
As the criminal, federal and civil lawsuit costs keep mounting, not even the most die-hard FPD defenders will be able to deny it.
107 Replies to “What is Corruption?”
A good sign of corruption is when a federal judge knocks an entire department for codling a sex offender in its midst.
My problem with what Vernon said is his, like all other rabid pro-police commenters, is the use of the word hatrid describing anyone that disagrees or criticizes any police officer for anything. I see it constantly in blogs and forums, if you disagree you’re a cop hater, if you criticize you’re a cop hater. I for one am not a cop hater, my best friend in high school became a cop, but I do disagree and criticize the FPD for what’s going on there. Are the insiders that he mentions who’re considering employment in other cities more felons with badges, or good cops who can’t deal with the pressure? I also disagree and criticize those good cops, I know they’re there, who stand behind the thin blue line, protecting those felons with a badge who’re also there. When they do that, they are equally guilty. If they were aware of a civilian who’d committed a crime and his friends and “co-workers” refused to give information, or step forward what would they be called? They used to call not ratting on anyone Omerta in the “mob”, if cops have the same policy how are they any different? A good man or woman turns bad by keeping their mouth shut, as easy as that.
The hatred I was referring to is the way people have dragged officers’ names and reputations into the discourse here who have had NOTHING to do with recent incidents at the Fullerton PD whatsoever. Many such comments are accompanied by demeaning or foul language.
I believe if an officer has done wrong, he/she deserves criticism for their actions. But for those who are decent, upstanding, ethical, innocent police officers, consider the effect on the officer’s wife and kids before you post. It’s really not fair to be calling somebody’s husband or father a fucking asshole or a cocksucker for any reason, but that’s especially true when the officer has done nothing wrong.
I even feel sorry for the wife and kids of Ramos and Cicinelli. Think about the embarrassment, shame, and anger they will carry for the rest of their lives. For all intents and purposes, their lives have been ruined.
Vernon, please cite some examples of cops whose names and reputations have been dragged into the discourse who had nothing to do with recent incidents.
I don’t read all the comments here by a long shot, but I don’t remember reading any names that weren’t connected to recent incidents. And I connect the Captains and Chiefs, acting, or otherwise, with recent incidents.
Off the top of my head, some idiot has commented here on multiple occasions that John DeCaprio was having sex with female transients in alleys, and maybe paying them for it. I don’t remember the exact accusation but it’s never been proven, not once. That’s a terrible thing for John’s wife and kids to have to endure.
Well, that’s one, although I missed it. And it didn’t come from any of the blog writers, I can tell you that.
And I will affirm that. The aforementioned remarks were NOT posted by the bloggers of this site, they were written in the comments section.
I also concur with the gentlemen’s equitable assessment but vernon your pomposity is rather grody.
Any unfounded accusations by a careless commenter can hurt and individual and family. An unfounded accusation by a police officer against a citizen can cause loss of liberty, loss of job and great family suffering.
We all feel compassion for the families of these indicted officers. The whole sordid episode is heartbreaking all the way around. These men did not consider themselves to be aliens. In their minds, they might have seriously thought their behavior was acceptable or at least tolerated by their peers and superiors. That makes it all the more heartbreaking.
POBOR was enacted with good intentions. Everyone wants to support their local police. Sometimes good will can be abused. If senior police officials and city leaders do nothing to stem abuse, then the citizenry must and will stand up and make corrections. That is what is happening here and it is a good thing for citizens, police and families.
Vernon, What are you going to do if America wakes up and sees through you: the above vulgarity (cock—— and fu—– As-hole) is no where on this site other than as uttered here by you in the above comment # 3. When you construct the myth of the ‘wronged’ cop, and create the illusion that the sort of person who enables murder is ‘ethical and innocent’ you really just want the murders to continue. And you want the victims to blame themselves. Mostly you want onlookers to slumber into a lul. That manipulative tactic, by cops and cop pawns, has to stop, you have to stop perpetuating the myth of the willing victim, or of the victim as perpetrator (Kelly Thomas); myths that the police rely on to snow the public. If only because it is such a laughable tactic, and in fact, it gets those ‘innocent cops’ killed by the ones who went up the hierarchy while getting the threat of a good one gone. A ‘good’ cop lasts about six months, then, moves on to a real job, in a legitimate trade, pressured by superiors who only want corruptible cops under foot. There are no police departments where this is not a fact, there is no nirvana police force, where heroes exist. But there are plenty of Vernons trying to hoodwink the public, with laughable tactics. Vernon knows that if we really know the truth we would lynch them one and all. And lastly the pitty party for the innocent wife and kids? Do you really think they had it any better than the rest of R&Cs victims? Battery toward wives and kids is a given in copland. Not one single person who talked to me at Officer Phillips’ funeral failed to ask me if he beat me. Not one. Oddly, I was surprised, even shocked. Until I looked up his court history and found that he had been sued for brutality toward arrestees over one hundred times.
Truth is truth…
“The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which
condition if he breaks, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime, and the
punishment of his guilt.”
John P. Curran, 1790
Bottom line here is, If you or I were involved in this type of activity, (Crime, intimidation, Coverups) ect… we would be drawn and quartered by the judiciary system.
We must stay Vigilant or risk losing our liberties. And the only way to do that is to question authority always. Even if that includes deeming someone guilty by association / silent acquiescence.
definition of “corrupt.”
“direct knowledge or participation in crimes/coverups”
CAN YOU SAY “UNIONS” the root of all current day evil, and the lack of personal accountibilty.
Let’s be honest, Fullerton is controlled by a defacto paramilitary police force who is answerable to nobody. Not the City Council and certainly not the public who pay their hefty salaries, pensions and the resulting lawsuits from their felonious actions. Dismantle FPD. It’s the only way forward.
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck needs to come down to Fullerton PD and give some lessons to the brass.
It seems to me LAPD has dramatically improved since he took over as Chief of Police.
are you being scarcastic WG? you are, arent you?
Well Joe hit the nail on the head, “BIGTIME” in his commentary.
For Vernon, who has been dragged through the “mud”, that is honorable and not corrupt? I am asking, I don’t know.
Your cheerleading is as about a general a statement as OUR friend Reality Is normally gives out.
Before you cheerlead, you should be prepared to be specific and factual yourself.
Joe is right on because that is the NORMAL culture within most Law Enforcement agencies. It is easy to see as has been outlined.
The degrees of corruption will vary. The one at FPD is glaring even from my position behind the keyboard.
One will know that if they have been in Law Enforcement and payed attention.
If some cop on this blog has been attacked and is honorable, YOU if your in the know should be giving their NAME and circumstances defending their character.
Of if that cop has any cajones can and should be speaking up the themselves.
Moral is bad at FPD because MOST of them have NO HONOR, followed by courage. Their going to keep their mouths shut to get along with the brass and the idiots who support the conduct mentioned on this blog.
OKAY, then don’t cry about MORALE either. You wanna work in a SHIT HOLE, then be prepared to get some stink on you if you wish to remain SILENT.
You are CORRUPT if you see this type of stuff going on day in and day out and remain SILENT.
Your a miserable WHIMP of a human being to complain your being beat up on the blogs or in the press and again REMAIN silent.
That’s funny considering I’m not a cop.
This isn’t rocket science. Call out the corruption, call out the wrongdoers all you want, but don’t paint everybody with the same brush.
We have much to lose if every decent officer leaves the department out of frustration and the only replacements willing to take their places are from the same cesspool that Ramos and Cicinelli came from.
GET A CLUE Vernon, What are you going to do if America wakes up and sees through you: the above vulgarity (cock—— and fu—– As-hole) is no where on this site other than as uttered here by you in the above comment # 3. When you construct the myth of the ‘wronged’ cop, and create the illusion that the sort of person who enables murder is ‘ethical and innocent’ you really just want the murders to continue. And you want the victims to blame themselves. Mostly you want onlookers to slumber into a lul. That manipulative tactic, by cops and cop pawns, has to stop, you have to stop perpetuating the myth of the willing victim, or of the victim as perpetrator (Kelly Thomas); myths that the police rely on to snow the public. If only because it is such a laughable tactic, and in fact, it gets those ‘innocent cops’ killed by the ones who went up the hierarchy while getting the threat of a good one gone. A ‘good’ cop lasts about six months, then, moves on to a real job, in a legitimate trade, pressured by superiors who only want corruptible cops under foot. There are no police departments where this is not a fact, there is no nirvana police force, where heroes exist. But there are plenty of Vernons trying to hoodwink the public, with laughable tactics.
I’m sorry, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I never said anything about victims in that post and you act as if I did.
And where do you get that I want the murders to continue? That couldn’t be farther from the truth. And it’s insulting.
It’s not as insulting as being treated like a willing fool.
The Fullerton Pd is RESPONSABLE..for their own PR & moral…they made the mess…sorry if Im cynical but they have created this mess,why should I run around and say we have good cops…not my job…I dont think I need to do anything for them-they did this, I always have given credit where credit is due…yeah they got taggers-boya..the sexual preditor mug shot-a month later- cmon. I will not defend them-not at this time-but I will keep an open mind and hope for the best…this city is worth it.
Dear #7 Anonymous,
I do not live in Fullerton any longer, but I can tell you that a community ought to never give up local control of its police, in favor of contracting with a neigboring city, or a county, to provide such services. I personally believe that California should change state law to prohibit the contracting of police services to incorporated cities by county sheriff’s departments.
The whole trend towards contracting with county sheriff’s departments is orchestrated to thwart citizens’ abilities to recover in civil rights lawsuits. For you see, someone can sue an incorporated city for civil rights abuses, but counties, being “direct political subdivisions of the state”, are immune. I don’t want to muddy the waters with a discussion of pleading-technicalities under Hafer v. Melo, etc. etc. The point is, meaningful access to the court for civil rights violations is badly curtailed, when counties start policing for cities.
Secondly, common sense tells you that it is never wise to give up local control over anything. I would hope that, in the future, there can be sustained, learned dialogue about why county sheriff’s departments can supposedly curtail abuses, better than a local city council.
This very post shows the immediacy of the result of local political accountability: faced with a change in the composition of the City Council, and a concomitant change in FPD “leadership” (really, management rather than leadership), we hear talk of defections, transfers, resignations. Stating it differently: when the ship starts to sink, the rats climb out of the bilge and so on, up to the deck, and then jump off. Pirate Pat’s Ship is sinking, and now the rats are leaving. They do not want to be accountable.
Again: do not turn your police department over to a larger criminal enterprise to run. Reform it yourselves. WSH
Snowhume ‘snake in the grass,’ You sound as if you are a lawyer for the City, arguing, in particular, for the Police Department, as if county replacement of a contaminated batch of brutes, would not be a temp means of aleviating a crisis, but rather a poorly thought out permanent solution. As a temp means of cleaning house, the replacement of the bad batch of boys in blue always works, example Brocton CA, where the police, and officers of the court, were fired and replaced by sheriffs until replacement city cops could be hired, after the police were determined by the FBI to be routinely stealing kids from arrestees and selling kids as body parts.
You sound like that Carolyn Phillips lady. Rambling on and on about irrelevant and incoherent stuff.
As opposed to propagandizing the public, is that what you mean?
Carolyn Phillips’ rants were propaganda.
You, Reality Is and Carolyn are probably one in the same …in the sense that you share similar point of views.
I think you are right about it being Carolyn Phillips. She mentions an Officer Phillips’ funeral in an earlier post. You know, I made a comment on a previous blog and she totally went off on me for things I did not say, eloquently referred to me as “Stupid Texan,” and accused me of making her a victim. I consider her rants as being counter productive to open and respectful dialogue. Although I personally disagree with many of your points, I appreciate the respectfulness with which they are written.
Nice try: Your comment is exactly what I am referring to when I say that cops make the victim into the perpetrator, as policy. They didn’t get away with it regarding Kelly, because Ron is in law enforcement and saw it coming. You like to manipulate people into not believing their own eyes, or in this case you want to play ‘I know you are but what am I’ (Pewee Herman) in print. It works very well when your audience are easily manipulated followers: Uneducated people. Most of the people on these sorts of sites. Your followers won’t ever suspect that they are being suckered in because you pick your targets (me) with such deliberation, not at all casually, or thoughtlessly, it really is the fine art of generating seemingly earned (inadvertent) hate.
I see two major factors in judging FPD.
One has been layed out by a Federal Judge.
The other was the day FPD targeted motorists for honking their horns in protest of what happened to Kelly Thomas.
Handing out INFRACTION tickets was a simple “we will show you”.
Someone with HALF a brain would have let folks VENT and not compounded anger by being “chickenshit”.
Gestapo BS at it’s finest. FPD will get back what they give like anyone else who draws a line in the sand and says cross it.
Mr. Peabody, thanks for sharing my earlier comments. My comment about trash talk was in reference to specific unfounded accusations against individual officers. See my post to Leroy a few up. I don’t see any problem criticizing the department as a whole.
I’d like to expound on my earlier comments if I could. We don’t know if good officers are looking the other way and pretending the bad behavior doesn’t exist. As with all levels of government (and often the corporate world, too) people get so disillusioned with internal politics that they stop trying to right a wrong. When concerns fall on deaf ears time and time again, there’s not much more you can do except resign.
Some might say the good officers should be taking their concerns to the City Manager or City Council. Maybe that happens behind closed doors and we have no idea. Maybe Joe Felz and the Council ignore the concerns put before them? I don’t have the answer to that.
Retaliation from management, the union and individual officers is probably all but certain for whistleblowing. This presents two alternatives:
1. Stay silent to not piss off your fellow officers when you need them for backup.
2. Blow the whistle on them and endure abandonment, harassment, and maybe even termination by the department.
Alternative No. 1 is the better way to go if you have a wife and kids at home. The chances of you coming home unscathed are much greater. Alternative No. 2 takes an enormous amount of courage, alternative job options if your life at Fullerton PD becomes a living hell, and a possible disregard for your family’s well being.
This is not an easy choice.
Thanks for proving my earlier point that it’s impossible for a good honest Officer is make up the chain of command within a corrupt agency such as the fullerton pd.
I’m not going to name names but the guys at the top who have been with the department for a decade or more are the source, cause and creators of the massive corruption within the department.
When they speak, their officers listen and when they tell their officers to be heavy handed …guess what is going to happen…
Take Officer Kenton Hampton as an example then consider the demographics of Fullerton. Being a black officer, If Hampton arbitrarily decided to start beating the crap out of people on his own he would have been fired on the spot and even arrested but because he had the backing, blessing and support of the department he got away with it.
So, who makes the department?
– Deputy Chief
These guys have the ultimate say in what happens within their department and in most cases its the Commander, Captain and Lieutenant. Remember that.
Since the city can’t fire any of them, the only logical choice is disbanding the department like Maywood and Compton then let the Sheriff’s department take over for a few years and maybe consider reforming the department later on like Compton is thinking about doing.
The OC Sheriff’s department like the California Highway Patrol is much more disciplined which is why you do not often hear about their deputies or officers gunning down unarmed citizens, beating the crap out of people and so on.
Fullerton PD OTOH has the discipline of your typical nightclub bouncer.
Hopefully the voters will ultimately have a say in whether the department is disbanded or not but if the department is allowed to exist with the same officers, NOTHING is going to change and the citizens of Fullerton will ultimately be paying for it in the form of Lawsuits, Settlements, Training, massive cuts to much needed services and higher taxes to offset the costs.
…If this is the future Fullerton citizens want then so be it.
The proper procedure is to take the wrong doing to the FBI, only the FBI can confiscate badges, and of course a judge can court order a cop fired. The FBI does not publish their findings, so, we, the public, never know how many cops in a given police force are determined by the FBI to be running smuggling rackets, dealing in children’s body parts for example, just as we don’t know (for our own good) just exactly where the worst epidemics are, bubonic plague is rampant in LA, so is leprosy, but you and I are not allowed to know that, in the interest of public safety, because if we read about it in the paper every day there would be panic and mass hysteria: therefore the policy of the Health Department is to act like nothing bad is happening, everything is under control, it can’t happen here. But where there is smoke there is fire, and cleaning out all of the Fullerton cops, in order to start fresh, would be a good idea.
It’s like the USA. You either think it’s hopeless and you choose to leave or you stay to try to make it better, but ignoring it and doing nothing guarantees corruption.
Mr.Snowhume regarding what you say about a Sheriff’s Department being immune from civil rights violations as opposed to a Municipal PD is 100% incorrect.
If your suggesting let’s say Orange County SO had done this to Kelly, while being contracted with the City of Fullerton there would be no liability or accountability, is ABSURD.
ALL governmental agencies are immune from liability if their actions are reasonable and within the limits of the law.
In fact when one contracts with a Sheriff’s Department generally all liabilities and pay outs for said torts are covered by the County.
The resources of a Sheriff’s Department are generally much greater than a local PD. What a City PD doesn’t have and the Sheriff does, now become available to the City as part of the contract. IN most cases.
BUT you might have less manpower on the streets with the SO.
YOU will have less command staff contracting with the SO.
Like just a Captain and Lieutenant running the station.
Not a Chief, 3 or 4 Captains, several Lieutenants and Sergeants. A BIG savings in the REAL world.
No, I am not “100% incorrect”. I am actually an expert in the field.
There is a distinction between an employing local government from having direct liability, versus the employees of a local government. It is quite possible, under federal civil rights law, to directly sue an individual official, whether elected or appointed. One could sue a Deputy Sheriff, or an Assistant Sheriff, or even a Sheriff. But one cannot sue either a Sheriff’s Department or a County under federal civil rights law.
Because of the Tenth Amendment immunity of the states, all political subdivisions are immune from being sued in the federal courts. Therefore, a civil rights practitioner has to plan on suing individual officers — whose identities are frequently unknown, at the presentation-of-claims and pleadings phases — because the employing governmental agencies cannot be sued.
In contrast, it is possible, under federal civil rights law, to sue cities directly. Do you disagree with this last proposition, AntiCorruptionUnit?
And this is just a “first stumbling block”. The second “stumbling block” lies in making sure that one sues the individual official in his or her “individual capacity”, rather than his or her “official capacity”. That is when “Hafer v. Melo” and its progeny become quite important.
I haven’t even yet reached the issue of whether or not an employing agency chooses to indemnify the official’s act. Under state law, it cannot do so, if the harm results from intentional misconduct. But the local government can choose to defend the official in the civil suit, with a “reservation of rights” that is analogous to an insurer’s “duty to defend”. The political pressure upon a local government to not defend, or to at least seek reimbursement, will always be greater, the smaller the local government. Stated differently, county boards of supervisors are less likely to make a sheriff’s deputy to pay his or her own defense a civil federal civil-rights lawsuit, than, say, Los Angeles, which around 2000 just outright quit paying for such defenses. Hence many LAPD officers pay for rather outstanding “malpractice insurance” with PORAC.
There are many other issues that I hope will be addressed on this blogsite, on a learned basis.
If there are particular propositions that I wrote down above, for which you need citational authorities, I can dredge them up and post them on this site. I am sure that Admin would help. But I am not mistaken, to say that contracting out the police function to county sheriffs’ departments does tend to thwart civil justice and accountability for wrongful acts by peace officers.
Best wishes, WSH
Many wonder if Capt. Hughs is a good cop or not? He genuinly seems to wish improvment for the department . He even has stated that he is considering the formation of ” a community advisory committee to the chief aimed at working on improving community trust and confidence in their police department.”
This idea sounds like a community serving but if he’s the cheif that this committee is reporting to then this plan takes on a different lignt.Will he be as enthusiastic about this committee if they wish to choose another full term chier other than himself?
Vernon then you should have stated what you did in post #14 and layed the foundation early on.
I am sorry to say that said reason you give are the truth and reality of police culture, you will find that under most circumstances it will get you little sympathy from a jury deciding your fate.
If you watched the Rodney King trial like I did, you would have seen most of that.
I haven’t read ANY case law where such excuses real or perceived scored many points with the courts or jurors at the end of the day.
If it is a good viable excuse, then there should still be people wearing blue speaking up and giving that excuse as to why they are silent.
“Let them speak up and say I’d like to talk, but I’ll get fired if I do”.
Such excuses have ZERO weight when people die or are murdered.
I would have said that earlier, but I had no idea Mr. Peabody would create a post out of a comment I made last night. I typed as fast as I could.
Please realize that I wasn’t endorsing silence, that is merely my perception of what goes through their minds when presented with a crisis of this nature. This isn’t about whether the excuses seem justified to me or you, nor is it about their value in a courtroom. This is about self-preservation for the officers, mainly in a financial sense.
I’m sure you’ve worked for a company with some shady business practices. I have. You can just raise a ruckus about it and expect to remain gainfully employed. Whistleblowing laws might say otherwise, but you know as well as I do that employers will find other ways to get rid of troublemakers.
Let me add Vernon that you will find no provision in MOST policy manuels of Law Enforcement agencies, regarding the reporting of misconduct by ANY member of a department that says anything like the following.
“An employee will be exempt from disciplinary proceedings if they can show they failed to report said misconduct because they feared they would be retaliated against by other employees or a member of management”.
If that was a viable reason, some brilliant police manager like Pat McKinley would have adopted it and be showing it to the citizens of Fullerton.
Statements of that nature are useless if officers doubt the sincerity of the person(s) who wrote it. All it takes is one incident where that policy was ignored and that “reassurance” will forever be doubted.
It isn’t a perception about silence Vernon, it is REAL LIFE in the police culture. It only holds water with some. But’s it’s an excuse many use.
But I ask you this sir, if a cop is going to face an armed criminal and exchange gunfire like many did in the Hollywood bank robbery a few years ago and DIE in the line of duty, why would they be a coward on something like we talk about here?
I am 56 years old, have been around the world a couple times, I still can’t get my arms around the fact courage like this is hard to figure out.
I believe you have it 24/7 or you don’t, especially when someone was killed, or a major felony was committed by another cop, ie the sexual misconduct by the other Fullerton cop.
Facing an armed criminal and exchanging gunfire may be instinct much more than it is courage. I don’t know.
I knew that bank robber because he used to show up where I worked every morning, casing the place, (we are the biggest target in LA) when he was let bleed to death, under the foot of a cop, as if he was a trophy kill, I thought more highly of the bank robber than of the cop, and yes the bank robber’s kids saw their dad bleed to death, while the cop boasted of his kill, and no ambulance was called.
I agree, but such statements would never hold water with the public.
We can take our whistleblower laws, there on the books, but get violated EVERYDAY especially in Law Enforcement.
If in doubt do a little research on LAPD, you will see they have payed out MILLIONS of tax dollars to HONEST cops who didn’t wish to be part of any conspiracy to cover up misconduct.
Could you explain…how are whistleblower laws violated everyday by law enforcement? I must be overlooking something.
Corruption isn’t just what you do, it is also what you don’t do.
For all those “good cops” who keep silent and go with “the program”, these aren’t the type we need to represent us as our new chief.
Sellers, where are you? Why are you still collecting paychecks? …is it because you can ?
Let a law be enacted with severe criminal and civil penalties to ANY Chief or high ranking official who retaliates against an honest cop speaking up. That would include politicians who retaliate against Chiefs too.
Most of this crap will disappear in short order or as soon as some dummy like McKinley goes to jail, watch the way business is done get changed real QUICK.
Police” behaving badly” may feel validated in that because judges will back them up. A person unfairly ticketed can spend many hours of his time going through the court system to fight a ticket and the judge may dismiss it no questions asked of the officer. Or and officer can simply just stand up and request dismissal no questions asked. The courts can do a lot to hold law enforcement more accountable by making it a more equal discource in the courtroom and allowing a policeman to be reprimanded in courtroom and held up to public scrutiny the same way the defendent would be.
Do some research on the internet. Maybe google “police retaliation” and start reading.
Maybe the word “everyday” was a bit much, how about “often”.
Thanks. Will do.
Or maybe EVERYDAY, somewhere?
Spiders: They claim that we need them, to keep the wilds safe and secure, from evil attackers who would ravage our peaceful Bugosphere. But, are they donning white hats just for a pay-check? They say that they put themselves between danger and our capital, to protect us. But, without a paycheck and perks, you won’t see them catching a single stinkbug: how many innocent bees have been inadvertently, or even deliberately, snagged, in their webs? Job security? They have the media on speed dial, “Hey, everybody, look at me, I’m a hero, my web is full of pests!”
A few french fries short of a happy meal.
I’m happy all the way to the bank.
You’ve been playing the Monopoly game at McDonald’s haven’t you?
Money is my God
I know Vernon, from personal experience and observing others.
Those who run are cowards, those who don’t move but can, are afraid.
Those who advance and are subjected to gunfire are courageous and brave.
Are there documented instances of cops running away from a gun battle?
You’re really laying it on thick vernon.
From your above statement I guess you weren’t around for the Rodney King riots of L.A., when all the cops ran away! 😉
I have one that is even closer to home, the beach battle in HB. I saw the tough HB cops get punked and then run away from the citizens they were seeking to abuse, once the citizens showed that the HBPD had gone too far! 😉
Lots more on the web… if you LOOK.
Vernon, have you thought about, say for example, watching the new, because, there is a whole world out there or reality, and some of those depictions actually show cops doing less than perfect things.
There are people in every profession doing less than perfect things. The police should be held to a higher standard if that’s what you are insinuating.
You don’t need a job or even be associated with a people group to commit evil acts against another human being. Personally? I think everybody on this planet has an evil side to them. Some folks are exponentially worse than others.
The news regarding New Orleans, during Katrina actually showed cops, Running Away From Gun Battle and into stores that they then looted. It showed them shooting people for no reason. It does happen. It happens all day every day, even on TV which never lies, or so we are told, and it happens where we will never know.
I vaguely remember the looting but the shooting you speak of escapes me at the moment.
The best way to deal with police corruption is to eliminate the need for their existence. Just think, if everybody got along and stopped breaking the law, the need for law enforcement is no more.
Type in “Danziger Bridge” …. there is no way you are missing this stuff. It is all over the place….. unless you just choose to not believe cops can be murders. cowards and felons.
Cops are ‘held to a higher standard’ on paper only. So much of misconduct is the failure to meet the ‘higher standard’ to which they are held, because the people, the public, who need to hold them to a higher standard are dumbed down by websites like this one: so oddly deceptive, and manipulative.
If Hughes had any balls at all, he would release the video tape. Until then, I don’t trust any pigs at FPD.
Can he legally do so at this point?
I think a similar question was asked of Bruce Whitaker and he wasn’t sure of the answer. I could be wrong though.
Has anyone filed a FOIA request to get the tape?
Dear Vernon Dozier,
The City of Fullerton could, indeed, release the footage. It is an ordinary “business record” that was routinely collected as part of non-stop taping of the Transportation Center. But the Police Chief should not act unilaterally; it is the City Council which should choose to do so, and it need not wait for a CPRA lawsuit in order to hold a hearing and vote upon the matter.
The tape belongs to the City of Fullerton, and not to the district attorney’s office, and not even to the court. The the DA cannot unilaterally stop the City from releasing it; he would need a court order. OK.
Terra Nova Department: Why could a petition initiative not be used, to compel release of the tape?
In a comment to another post on this site, I recommended that Mr. Thomas bring a CPRA request to the City, to go in tandem with his ex-wife’s lawsuit.
Bruce Whitaker could sponsor an agenda item to consider the release of the tape — even without a lawsuit. It could be shaped in such a way, to make it clear that the council members who oppose, are not doing so out of any legal advice to not do so. Because Bruce has not gotten any such “direction” from the City ‘s legal counsel. Needless to say, he won’t get the votes. But he could turn up the heat on his colleagues.
I sure remember, back when the Recalls Committee was fighting to get the City to televise the city council meetings on the city’s cable channel. Can you imagine life without such broadcasts, now?
Best wishes, WSH
I was with you until the last sentence.
Just to let you know, and the other day bloggers. (My Holiday started today) I really enjoyed the earlier discussion. It really made me think. Sorry it had to end.
Why am I not surprised. But you are improving, this is the first time that you have not attacked an adage that is over your head. You are showing signs of civility Vernon. That is a step in the right direction.
I think the blood of Kelly Thomas and the others who lost their lives while in FPD custody as well as all the ruined lives by the frame-ups is on the hands of ALL those who have CHOSEN to remain silent. MAYBE IF SOME OF THE SUPPOSED “GOOD” OFFICERS SPOKE UP, WENT TO THE MEDIA, THE FBI OR SOMETHING MAYBE KELLY AND OTHERS WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. There is a reason that the cowards are the first in line to be thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 21. Why didnt anyone speak up? Same in Weimar Germany as the phony christians would wipe the ashes from the crematoria off of their windshields as they left sunday services. Everyone has their price. The irony was they eventually ended up in the ovens as well. Murders are a big deal and an even bigger deal knowing that they COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED. The folks over on Commonwealth need to do some real inward reflection this Christmas if there is anything left on the inside besides self preservation.
Wow! I worship you oh greatness that is truthseeker; you can really write! Is that what you do in real life? Could you be talked into letting me quote you, I’m serious: what a brilliant succinctly stated synopsis of Hitler come home to roost. Give me a yes, I’ll give you credit in print. you may as well give it to me, I am unburdened by Christian morals, I have no hesitation to steal it, because it’s that good. But do you mind? Too late, I just lifted it. (Really, thank you for being you)
You have the permission of the clergy response team. As you were.
Thanks, tee hee. Lets not let Vernon ruffle our feathers, after all he is character in a comedy show on radio, he is not a real person.
Yeah. What ever happened to Steve Bozell of Corona, anyway?
Tuco had a long conversation with an ex police officer who is head of a retirees org. No one will squeal because they will be forced to leave for another area, like hundreds of miles away. Move their family, etc.
I reminded him there is a whistleblowers act that protects them in certain situations. Blowing the whistle on the bureaucracy counts, as in stealing or misapplication of public funds. Ratting out officer Wolfe as being part of the Kelly demise team would not count. That whistleblower would have no protection.
Thus, the code of silence remains. Part of the problem are the laws of the state of california.
City Council has the authority to force FPD to release the video. Let’s see if SQS is able to get the video released.
hahahahahahaha! That is a joke right, R.D.?
“Brocton CA”? Where is that and what are you talking about?
Brockton is in Riverside, a mutual freind of Kelly, worked on that case, you can contact her, or what is left of her: Patti Mejiah. She is a consumer at MHA, the police arranged for her to get her head bashed in during the Brocton investigation. For all the good that it did them: she put five officers in prison -where they will stay until the day they die, for selling kids. I can tell you more about it but not here, email me at [email protected]
Wrong, Charlie Beck is a political tool and a social progressive like his boss Villragosa. You don’t want Charlie showing the fullerton boys anything.
If I were Kelly Thomas I’d rather get stopped by Officer Villaraigosa and Officer Beck. At least I know for sure I wouldn’t get my face smashed in and suffocated to death.
You act like social progressiveness is a bad thing in Law Enforcement.
Progressivness demands a progressive increase in police authority
Why do you think that Rusty started rebelling agianst the the Fullerton High coaches’ prohibitions on hair length, was in on trying to make the FPD unterstand the 1960′-1970’s youth, but is now a partner in law enforcement?
those two dunderheads are not the ones to teach about progressiveness in making toast
Don’t even mention Villarogosa and Fullerton in the same breath. Vraiment!
For whatever it’s worth, I have it pretty good authority that the general moral within the FPD is not low. It appears that the departments is quite full of cards, candy, baked goods and other expressions of support. I hear that the rank and file believe that the percentage of the city that is upset with them is low. That the angry folks are a very small and vocal minority. I would take that with a very large grain of salt.
I Definitely! would not let anyone eat those cookies and baked goods.
Its a good thing that they are happy, maybe they will straighten up their act.
” I hear that the rank and file believe that the percentage of the city that is upset with them is low. That the angry folks are a very small and vocal minority.” But this is Worldwide now,
“There is only 50-100 witnesses we got their cameras we will have the local media blow this incident off” 7-5-2011
This is the juicy insider info we’ve been looking for. Looks like your strong friendship with Captain Hughes is paying off big time.
I heard if you start feeding him intel on protesters (names, car descriptions, future plans, photos and so forth) he’ll give you a pat on the back and I happen to know that you love pats on the back from police officers. So… think about it.
I dont think they give a shit if you trust them or not.
Hell, they don’t give a shit while they’re beating you to death or trust means nothing.
Y’all know we got us a sayin’: if’n the Qween had balls she’d be King. Ahhhheeyuhaw!!!
City Council does not have the authority to make the police release the tape..ask Mr Wiennie Whitaker. Its an open investigation. When are you all gonna get that.
Got it. Not quite that simple.
The subject of this post is something people have been arguing about for decades and decades.
Everyone should read this book. I included the author’s own promotion, which speaks for itself.
The reason I am reading it is because I needed to understand “The Code of Silence” a little more. This guy pours his heart out about his experiences as a police officer. He is one brave soul.
Walking With the Devil: The Police Code of Silence [Paperback]
Michael W. Quinn
September 1, 2004
As Peace Officers we willingly lay our lives on the line for each other and the public we serve. Yet, we walk away or turn our heads when we see another officer doing something that could end their career, their marriage, or their freedom. Because we don’t rat on another peace officer. AS OFFICERS we have taken an oath to protect and serve the public and each other. Yet, the number of officers that commit suicide is much greater than the number of officers killed by felons. Some of those suicides are the result of being under investigation for crimes or unethical behavior. Behavior that other cops were aware of and never reported, and did nothing to stop, because we don’t rat on other cops. AS DEPUTIES, we have sworn to protect those in our custody. Yet some of us will go to prison every year because of acts that could have, and should have, been stopped by other deputies because we don’t rat on other deputies. AS TROOPERS, we have sworn to protect and serve by keeping our highways safe. Yet some of us will die in traffic accidents because we drive too fast for all the wrong reasons and some of us will be stopped, but not arrested, for drunk driving because we don’t rat on other troopers. AS SPECIAL AGENTS, we have sworn to uphold the constitution. Yet some of us will go to prison this year because we did nothing when we saw other agents involved in criminal or unethical behavior because we don’t rat on other agents. AS GUARDS, we protect each other against men and women convicted of the most heinous crimes. But we will ignore unethical or even criminal conduct of other guards. Because we don’t rat on other guards. There is a code of silence in the criminal justice system that infects all levels, and the cost in lives destroyed or lost is enormous. It is not an infection we can cure, but it is an infection we can fight, by making a commitment to protect each other against ourselves as well as others. Michael W. Quinn
I am sure not every cop has been effected by the Kelly Thomas situation.
But 3 leadership changes in as many months tells a different story all together, a compelling story that suggest ALL is not well within.
Either the Chief or two Captains in question don’t want the problems associated with this scandal ,or the City Manager is not comfortable with the one in power.
Nothing worse for the line troops to be dealing with 3 different personality’s when there is a crises of this magnitude.
Villaragosa is not a cop! He is the morally bankrupt mayor of L.A. He is also a former afl-cio boss. Make sense yet?
Yes, he is the mayor of los angeles city.
He doesnt seem like the type who would beat a defenseless homeless person to death which is why he would make a great officer.
Durrr!!! I can’t judge people based on personality and character. Everything has to be political DuHHH Durrr Durrrrp!
According to you, he’s not a cop, he’s immoral and a former union boss …yeah, I don’t get the point you’re trying to make there.
This is not fiction.
Officer Davis rescued Ninja Boy’s mom when the ‘counselors,’ at MHA, were pimping her out to rapists: the ‘counselors’ made her sit at the bus stop, and then get into various cars, that would take her to motels, where she was raped and beaten. MHA counselor, Steve Jobs, would buy speed, for he and Laura, at the same bus stop, with money from pimping out Patricia Mejia. Laura is still an MHA intake officer. Steve got fired for having affairs with mentally ill services recipients. Another counselor, Pam, went to prison for stealing patient disability checks. The bag lady thought that something was fishy, “When Pam screamed at me for giving Patti a bike: The bike gave Patti the ability to flee. I called Officer Davis, but Fernando (Patti’s counselor), and Pam Steel (Patti’s SSI Check payee), had told Davis that I was some sort of villain. He showed up and told me to mind my own business, but he went to the motel, got a copy of the rapist’s ID, from the manager, and found the bastard! Then he took him to jail. As long as the job gets done, I can stomach a cop being an a-hole. The first cop to respond was a tall gaunt Costa Mesa motor cycle cop, with Brillo hair, he said, ‘Pam told me all about you, you are a Meddling Lesbian, I know all about it.’ I corrected him, ‘I’m actually a Tibetan Buddhist Nun, not to be confused with Meddling Lesbians, or any other sect.’ He told me to go to hell, and off he sped. Pam and Fernando were so proud of the deception; I almost gave up, right then and there, in tears. I called 911 again, the next day; Davis responded, he was just as caustic, but at least he rescued Patti, and arrested the bus stop rapist. A year later Officer ‘Brillo’ and Steve Phillips along with Andy Hall (Police Chief of Westminster) cornered me, in an alley, and tried to rape me, in the ‘fuck truck:’ a police vehicle, that Hall reconnoiters for such occasions: Twelve cops showed up, in assorted vehicles and uniforms. I gave them the brush off, but the third time that they tried it, I actually got scared and started asking around: Sure enough, Shannon was in prison after being gang raped by them, there is always a victim to start off these serial rapes: wounded, who can’t stand up to rapist cops. Steve Phillips told her ‘there is one way to avoid arrest; party with us,’ as if she was a prize, and for her, even jail was negotiable. They laughed when they were done raping her, ‘It’s prison for you, don’t imagine that you can get out; crazies don’t get a defense,’ they said, while planting a crack pipe in her bag. I tried to get a Mormon lawyer to represent her, but all that the Mormons did was tell me to repent from my civil rights work.” -Bag Lady