Lets Talk About 600 W. Commonwealth

And My Field-trip to Fact-Check Red Oak Investments

This coming Tuesday the Fullerton City Council has a packed agenda and the most noise I’ve heard over the agenda is regarding the Red Oak Development. For the uninitiated that is the “Mixed-Use” Apartment complex that is being proposed at 600 W. Commonwealth where the Chevy dealership once sat.

Bad Luck O’ the Irish

I’ve written about this project elsewhere but I really want to dive into some of the rhetoric of Red Oak Investments.

When this project was in front of the planning commission back in September the spokesman for Red Oak, Alex Wong said the following:

“This project creates rich, new open spaces that are usable and accessible by the public. The courtyard on Chestnut is very similar in dimension and character to the charming courtyard that is in front of the Dripp Cafe and Stadtgarten. Very similar situation but twin courtyards that match each other on both sides of Williamson are coincidentally are very similar to the situation we have at Wilshire and Pomona, the plaza by the museum. And those are really special spaces. This is a private development but it is proposing to create public spaces that are usable both the people that live there and people who are also in the neighborhood whether they’re working or living there.”

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this comment and spoke up in the public comments that these “public courtyards” wouldn’t stay public. I also called out the fact that the “open courtyard” at Stadtgarten is behind a wall and through a private entrance which isn’t exactly public nor open. This was false advertising at best and deceptive at worst.

Mr. Wong was allowed to respond as these meetings are always tilted in the favor of the developers and he responded with the following:

“I’d like to respond to a couple [comments]. Joshua Ferguson, the guy who lived at Wilshire Promenade and talked about the courtyards not lasting long there when it’s open. There’s something about what he said that I think, that has a kernel in reality. This is not the typical way of doing a project. We will be making a case to investors and to our management company that hey this is going to be different than the other 99% of the portfolio that you manage. But we’re doing it because it’s better and we’re really excited about the concept. It is unusual.

“I can only think of three places in recent memory that have even tried this. Two of them are condos, different kinds of projects. They happen to be in Santa Ana; Artist’s Village and the one by the station. I forgot what it’s called. Only one of them is a rental and that is Westgate in Pasadena. It is the flagship project next to Old Pasadena. Old Pasadena has a very visible homeless presence and Old Pasadena is a slightly larger and a denser downtown than we have here. But that, coincidentally, was designed by the same architectural company and has these open courtyards and stoop locations in a few places but it does have open courtyards.”

Mr. Wong & the City of Fullerton clearly think that we’re intellectually lazy and too stupid to ask questions or verify details. They apparently think that we can all be won over by platitudes and arguments that fall apart when applied evenly across the board. Allow me to explain.

Let us begin with Old Pasadena being “slightly larger and denser”. Bollocks.

Slightly Dense

Slightly larger perhaps if you’re sizing up Downtown Fullerton the way the City always wants to do when they’re talking about collecting new taxes. Denser? Huge difference. Let’s compare that Old Pasadena Map to the painfully old one on the City of Fullerton’s website:

The Westgate Apartment complex (area highlighted in Orange) itself covers 0.3 of a mile unto itself. To put that into context the entire length of Downtown Fullerton from Malden to Pomona is only 0.4 miles long. That apartment complex could cover most of our “slightly smaller” downtown.

With that understatement out of the way let us now focus on Mr. Wong’s careful nuance. When he stated that the Westgate Apartment is “the flastship project” of this type he neglected to state that Red Oak had nothing to do with Westgate. That is an 800+ unit Development that sits on 12 acres of land. It’s a giant monster of a project sitting on land that is 3 times the size of the property that the Chevy dealership used to occupy. Again, it’s the size of our downtown.

It also doesn’t have much in the way of open space or courtyards as they’re thought of in the traditional sense. I know this to be true because I went and checked for myself. Here is the only thing that could remotely be called an open courtyard:


There’s not much to admire about that there flagship.

I figured that couldn’t be it so I walked the entire complex and the closest thing to public courtyards or “open space” was the walkways between the building. Such as:

As would be expected everything else was behind locked doors and closed gates. Just like I said it all would be in any community that didn’t want to piss off its residents. I dare them to add the pool tables that Red Oak is proposing in our little town.

One amusing point about the Westgate Complex is that their largest piece of retail space, on the corner lot, has been sitting empty for over 3 years.

3 Years. Still Empty.

So even in this slightly denser area at this flagship location obtaining commercial tenants is a problem. I wonder how the commercial occupancy will pan out for 600 W. Commonwealth.

3 Years and Still Waiting…

I guess we’ll have to ask Malden Station to sort that problem out for us… oh wait.

It really does get better though.

You see, I had to go to Pasadena two days in a row for this little field trip because I went to the wrong complex the first time. When Mr. Wong kept referencing Pasadena, in other comments and meetings, I missed the nuance and looked at Red Oak Investments for properties in Pasadena. That led me to Trio which is an apartment complex in Pasadena that they actually did build.

As an aside I would like to mention that I don’t trust anybody who’s website is fully flash based and auto-loads music as though it’s 1998.

It wasn’t until I was transcribing Mr. Wong’s comments for this post last night that I caught the name of the Pasadena flagship he referenced, the Westgate. I mistakenly had gone to Trio:

An Actual Red Oak Property

This property has pretty miserable reviews on Yelp and elsewhere (2.5 stars or below) and apparently has been through 4 or so management companies in the short time it’s been open. The elevators don’t seem to work well based on those reviews so that’s a fun walkable design idea. While the commercial component is full the property sits on Colorado Blvd and a block from the Pasadena Playhouse. I’m not giving brownie points for filling prime real estate.

My favorite part of the Trio complex was their version of open space and a courtyard. Much like Stadtgarten in Fullerton the only real open space is private property for a restaurant which is mostly brick enclosed. The next closest open space was the walkway between Trio and Bank of the West. Here’s a photo:


Lovely Shades of Concrete

The Bank of the West side has benches. The Trio side has concrete slabs you could sit on if so inclined.

I’m not excited by Red Oak Development because they’re trying to sell us something that they didn’t build (Westgate) while their own local project is lacking. They’re promising amazing when they’ve previously delivered mediocrity. That 99% of most portfolios don’t have these projects isn’t a reason to do one or to not do one, it’s a reason to be cautious about taking the risk. I don’t believe 600 W. Commonwealth is the site for this type of project because if an area like Old Pasadena can’t (or won’t) support this “better” idea I’m not sure it holds up for Fullerton.

To further complicate this project it should be noted that this complex is viewed by the City as a walkable project. Well, that’s interesting because recently I went on a walk of Downtown Fullerton with Karen Haluza; Fullerton’s Director of Community Development. She was nice and eager to hear my complaints about some of the plans that were percolating in the city. She wanted to explain what she saw as issues and hoped to hear solutions from me. To be fair I didn’t proffer many solutions because, as I told her, I have little interest in solving the problems of 6-figure salaried government employees.

I tried to stress that the city needs to get it’s municipal code in order and to stop playing favorites. Too many people have simply had it with handouts like what happened with the missing sidewalk at Tuscany. The big take away for me was that people are lazy in regards to parking which is true. Far too many people won’t park in a structure and walk two blocks to the bars and instead will circle the Amerige lots hoping to get lucky both in parking and otherwise. I’ve seen this time and again and I don’t disagree with the sentiment.

But here’s the problem with that bit of information. The City planners cannot simply wave a magic wand and nudge people to be more active. If we need to worry less about parking owing to availability and laziness we should also realize that if people won’t walk two blocks from a structure they surely won’t walk a mile round-trip from 600 W. Commonwealth.

Perhaps the city plans to dredge the Street Car out of the trash bin of bad ideas or cross-promote this development with Uber but walkable is not an apt descriptor for this project. If the city tries to nudge people to walk more and drive less they’re going to learn that markets serve wants and another town will build more parking to get them as customers. We should be planning for today and the wants and needs of today with an eye towards the future instead of planning for a future that might never arrive.

106 Replies to “Lets Talk About 600 W. Commonwealth”

  1. Why aren’t there any people in these “public courtyards”?

    Oh, because they are useless, cold and unaccommodating.

  2. Very scary. I see the pictures . This is what we have learned all over the world about city spaces: 1.a sidewalk where one can imaginarily take strides on, differs from one which invites to go for a walk 2. A bench can be the antithesis of one’s wanting to sit down for a relaxing time or even wanting to sit down at all.3 an urbanistic space might be horrendous to look at, interesting to look at but not to stay at, or can be a pleasant gathering location for the community.
    This plan would translate into a big presence in our dear downtown Fullerton. The one evident truth about this apartment conglomerate is, that once there, it is to stay . Slow down Fullerton!, these paths don’t have a way back and you are not getting it right.

  3. Most of the recent developement in the past years has been focused on housing . Its time to invest a bit in things that will inspire more buisnesses. Better roads along commonwealth might help to boost commercial development . Orangefair mall rezoned for dense housing doen’t leave any room to expand in our mall district. Lets step back and take a glance at how fast we are selling out . This town has always had a delicate balance between , arts , education , residential, and comercial .Thats what makes this town special and different. Balance. Its seem to be getting a little one sided lately. No more development until the streets are fixed!

  4. Good job. Excellent post. Thank you.

    Downtown Pasadena! The talisman waved in front of the rubes to get them to approve something! City staff has been doing this for 25 years. It was a staple of Redevelopment boondoggle justification.

    Enough freaking monsters.

    Time to start thinking recall.

    1. I recall the last successful recall- yes! Past time for a recall!! Are civic/minded people ready to fill the openings a recall will create?

  5. The commercial part of “mixed use” is a joke. Always has been. It was the old formula first seen in the Wilshire Promenade. It took YEARS for that ground floor space to fill up. And then it was mostly offices – ask Chaffee and Flory.

    The planners are bought and paid for by the developers. There is not a whiff of objective, professionalism on the part of our employees. They are all just advocates for whoever paid developer fees to them. It’s a disgrace. And behind this was/is a city manager incapable of balancing a budget trying to gin up revenue.

    Someone should remind Chaffee of his early days campaigning against overdevelopment.

  6. “They are all just advocates for whoever paid developer fees to them. It’s a disgrace.”

    What says the camera store clerk who posed for pictures with and voted for Bruce Whitaker? Yes Bruce took developer money, voted for Chevron’s project, took the Chevron money, voted for map 8a, and took Jeremy’s money. Jennifer Fitzgerald is bought and paid for too, Josh are that stupid? Why are you not exposing Silva. He is a rubber stamp on all the projects. Are you that insecure that you have to chum up with these political operatives? Do you not realize that Tony wants to develop his properties? No one spends a half a million dollars on a recall and then not expect a return on the investment. Well we all know Tony’s went up in smoke just like the movie. Why don’t you get Fitzgerald recalled? Maybe your buddy Bruce will help you.

    1. I don’t work for you, are you that naive?

      And I can be friendly with whomever I choose. Bruce was and is good people to me so while I’ll hold him to account when I feel it necessary I don’t have to attack him because you feel like he slighted you somehow.

      I write about what interests me in my free time. This husband, father of three & camera store clerk doesn’t get paid to write or do any of this and therefore doesn’t owe anybody anything.

      If you want to attack Silva before he’s cast a single vote on council then by all means I don’t see anybody stopping you.

      This isn’t a zero-sum game. I can write about all manner of things whereas you seem to think I only need to write about what burns in your heart. To that prospect I offer a simple “No”.

      1. Blind as a bat and wet behind the ears you are Josh. Too bad all we have for activists are the nut jobs and the controlled opposition. Whitaker plays ball Josh. Too bad you can’t see it because you are far too enamored with your new found attention by these players who are playing you. You were better off on your own Josh. I liked your stuff. Now it has to run through Tony’s filter.

  7. “To be fair I didn’t proffer many solutions because, as I told her, I have little interest in solving the problems of 6-figure salaried government employees.”
    That’s a cop out. Help find solutions or move along. Sitting on the side complaining does nothing to make Fullerton better than it is.

    But otherwise, good write up!

    1. “Help find solutions or move along.”

      Nobody here is obligated to fix this developer’s project. The solution that you’re looking for is for the council to simply vote no.

    2. “Help find solutions or move along.”

      WTF are you talking about? The “problem” is a city council that bends over big time for out-of-town developers and approves shitty, overbearing projects. The solution is for the city council to do its job – at long last. It’s not my job to fix some problem caused by my elected officials, is it.

      I think its about time for Sebourn, Whitaker, Fitzgerald and Chaffee to “move along.”

              1. I think anonymous raises a question that needs to be answered by those that openly have supported Bruce Whitaker instead of mocking the only man in town who has openly called bullshit on the corruption that exists in Fullerton.

                I think your all afraid that anonymous may be right about what he says about Tony Bushala wanting to develop his properties that he owns in Fullerton, and that your too stupid to realize that your all being used.

                1. Focusing on the minutiae and avoiding answering the question is for trolls and NOT wannabe Editors.

                2. Look, Joe, don’t blog whore. Don’t post links back to your own blog. It’s creepy and self absorbed.

                3. I’m DEFINITELY not Joe, and we all know what happens when you ass/u/me right?

                  You obviously don’t need any help on the ass part.

              2. Joe Imbriano before the election: Vote for me and I’ll stop all overdevelopment!
                Joe Imbriano after the election:

        1. All of them are equally blinded.

          People thought that they were getting 4 F back and instead they got the five fools of Fullerton.

          1. Your cry baby approach is just tired.

            No one cares about how brave you think you are.

            No one cares about how righteous you think you are.

            No one cares at all about how big ass shiney your balls are.

            Take your jealously, go home, and work on something constructive. Demanding we all become disciples in the Church of Joe isn’t going to get you or your crazy original vendetta causes anywhere.

            1. and no one cares that you are so blinded by your allegiance to Whitaker that you believe that anyone that doesn’t agree with the Fawning Friends of Fullerton’s Future is Joe Imbriano?

              Talk about a conspiracy theories!

              Pot meet kettle.

              1. It is fascinating and rather revealing how the host group here collectively attempts to make Joe Imbriano out to be some sort of petrified political fetus. I have read much of what he has published and watched him speak on numerous occasions. The man is brutally honest and painfully accurate. No one can argue the problematic situation he has created for the architects of Fullerton’s institutionalized corruption. It sounds like those of you here could very well be part of the problem.

                1. I think he could stand to get a decent haircut. And possibly some lifts. Dude can barely get to the microphone.

                2. “petrified political fetus”

                  I don’t know what that means but it sure sounds funny.

                  P.S. the Earth is not flat.

            2. 1) I don’t even like Whitaker nor do I have anything to do with this blog.

              2) You’re an idiot. The idiot actually.

              3) Wash, rinse, repeat point two above. Apply tin foil, go about your merry way.

    3. “Sitting on the side complaining does nothing to make Fullerton better than it is.”

      Sitting on the dais voting for the overdevelopment of Fullerton while you’re hiring a $100 per hour, unnecessary, double-dipping city manager retread doesn’t make Fullerton better than it is, either.

      1. Yes and Fitzy needs to be recalled. Thanks for giving her the 8 year pass Tony. Shawn is proud of you. Maybe you will get the first dibs on the dispensaries on top of the bars you run from your properties.

  8. When is the Fullerton Harpoon gonna let the air out of that big fat phony Bruce? Think Tony will let it happen?

    1. Mr Harpoon, a rather fair and direct question has been offered for your consideration. From all accounts, the Informer article, written by someone who you and your comrades like to commonly refer to as a lunatic, exposes massive corruption in great detail including the crumbling facade of Mr. Whitaker and Mr. Seabourn. What is the relevance of Mr. Imbriano’s physical attributes?

      In years past this site run by a paranoid pot head has stooped to baseless personal attacks and childish name calling. The new FFFF is no different. Entertain me on this Mr. Harpoon. Is the obesity of these two sitting council members an issue? Peradventure Mr. Whitaker’s hair cut is equally absurd in addition to his hair appearing to have not been washed for perhaps weeks. How about one of your contributors who regularly appears at council meetings disheleved as if he been sleeping in his car along with two others that appear to lack the basic skills required to utilize or understand the function of a razor.

      Why do you not answer the questions? Many of the responses here in my mind actually bolster the allegations leveled by the Informer. It is rather suspicious yet revealing behavior on all of your behalf.

      1. 1) What in the effing bejeezus are you ranting about?

        2) I don’t argue with the crazy guy in front of the 7-eleven and I’m not going to argue with you, either.

        1. I lament the articulation involving cursing Christ in some sort of urban slang code. You retort instead of engaging in honest debate.

          The ad hominem attacks abound here. Anyone who engages in any form of logical dissent here is immediately greeted with flailing declarations of insanity. I submit to you that those who blindly follow a paranoid pot head are in much needed good company here. I am beginning to foster a much greater appreciation of Mr. Imbriano’s perspectives as a result of all this declension oozing from your groups collective pores.

          1. ‘I am beginning to foster a much greater appreciation of Mr. Imbriano’s perspectives as a result of all this declension oozing from your groups collective pores.”

            Are you now? Just which perspectives are those?

            Vaccines are a tool of Satan?
            Wifi sterilizes children?
            Contrails kill?
            Fullerton is in cahoots with the UN to depopulate the earth?
            The earth is flat?

            Enjoy those perspectives. And your thesaurus.

            1. “Fullerton is in cahoots with the UN to depopulate the earth?”

              If on;ly it were true, I’ve been trying to find something good to say about Fullerton government, nevermind the UN.

        1. This article is about 600 w commonwealth you Ninnies. Not about launching personal attacks at Mr. Ferguson, Mr. Imbrino, or the rest of the people who write for FFFF. You all hijacked a really well written piece to talk about your ball size, your hatred for one council member, someone’s personal employment and make fun of people’s hair cuts. Are you ten?
          Grow up and focus on the fact this is the lie the planning commission wants to feed you, and no one else was willing to do the leg work.

          1. You are right, of course.

            Plus I have no idea what these people are talking about. So there’s that, too.

      1. Once again I am impressed with your gumption, doing yet more ground work that the six figured (and even high five figure) salaried City folk never bother to. It’d be easy to blame it on sheer laziness, and God knows there’s enough of that, but really it’s an example of the Zenger Maxim – the best way to not find a problem is to not look for one.

        Not doing anything (say, garden variety due diligence) increases the chance of projects getting approved, which increases the chance that they look like they’re doing something.

    1. “Tragically, today’s sophisticated residential developers have learned the game. The hot residential market allows them to build out projects where they can plug in zero income for the retail space they are forced by the municipality to build, knowing it will struggle at best. But strong returns on the residential pro forma compensate for the retail write offs, thus giving birth to another RRMU project whose ground floor is destined to lay vacant, or perhaps be leased by a start-up nail salon or martial arts operation with no credit or resume, if the landlord is lucky.”

      And there you have it.

  9. “City staffs who have no responsibility to finance, lease or manage the projects they conceive and require, are increasingly a class of folk with their hands on the gears of approval, yet with no boots on the ground understanding how retail leasing works or of the utterly flawed nature of their dreams.” Snippet from above linked article. Very much worth a read.

    1. None of this would be of concern, except that as in Redevelopment, the citizens are giving something of immense value away – new entitlements. And what are WE getting in return? NOTHING except negative effects that make somebody else rich.

      Yes, the problem is that the city staffs are incompetent AND ignorant. But they also have the financial incentive to back these huge wealth generators – their own paychecks. That would be a conflict of interest anywhere else.

  10. Flory may be the only one who can get three votes. That’s pretty pathetic Fullerton, isn’t it?

  11. They approved it… without approving it. The design needs “tweaking” but they voted for the negative impact report the re-zoning and something else.
    They voted to re zone it with out an “acceptable” plan. Making the land more valuable. Isn’t this what happened to Coyote Hills? Make the land to expensive for anyone else to buy so now we have to get some kind of god awful apartment complex on the lot. Great, awesome, fantastic…. next meeting they will come back with “nothing we could do to get more parking because it’s too expensive” and it will pass because saying outright no to something stupid with out proper traffic analysis, parking and the stupidist thing I ever heard about creating the left turn pocket by removing more street parking (two years after the complex is built and the units are full) is the best idea ever because…. We need more low income housing. Great, what is low income about $2700 a month??
    This was the biggest circle jerk I have ever seen.
    Btw who pays 2700 dollars a month to take the bus, then the train? This is not New York.

    1. I’m shocked!!!

      Um, well no, I guess I’m not. These people aren’t working for us. Never have been.

  12. Karen Haluza appears to be getting paid off. She was extremely helpful to the builder, even though most residents spoke against it.
    Then there was the noise issue at the slide bar. They do need a C U P just like every other downtown bar. Here are a few examples.




    Also Casa Bonita needs to be addressed. They are not just playing music inside, they now have very loud outdoor amplified music.

    1. “Karen Haluza appears to be getting paid off.”

      Of course she was paid off. it’s called “developer fees.”

    2. You are correct about Casa Bonita, you can hear them playing music literally all the way down Wilshire, and all the way up to whiting.
      Slide Bar is worst offender, but so many of the bars have loud live music without permits.
      Haluza…wow, she is either a shill for the developers or Fitzgerald. Anyone else notice the death glare she got from Jennifer when she was asked if the Slide Bar was operating legally?

      1. Well she did have her party there and Jeremy donated to her campaign. Oh and that is where Felz got drunk and then killed the tree.

  13. I hope everyone knows how many of the signatures on favor of the project were obtained. Close to cross the line of salesmanship coercion. The lady who was incorrectly counted on the “yes to the project ” said her neighbor felt that he had to sign when Alex Wong put the paper right up to his face.

  14. Alex Wong’s computer animated presentation was an insult. Fake la la land for us; we were treated by him as la la landers. It showed happy guys riding bicycles on Commonwealth. It is a dangerous adventure as it is right now for anyone to go on a bicycle on that stretch of the road. It is too narrow so, how would it be with the additional traffic in and out from the complex? What was that weird facade seen from the railroad tracks? Can anyone tell me what that was? they looked like merchandise containers???? All lacking details. The bike repair and fitness area could be relocated to open for new retailers. Relocated to where? And girls better have good shaped bodies because from the road there isa good view to the pool. …unless Wong is hiding the fence

  15. Some say: it is about affordable housing. But is the City setting an upper limit rent price? No, it is up to the market forces. The law of supply and demand as a too superficial man would say. So, even if these particular apartments were not affordable, an overall larger supply in Fullerton would lower rents at other complexes. But as the best studies-and the experience from our prior developments-has shown, we would need many of these apartment complexes to truly have a significant impact on rent prices. Fullerton is a historic suburb. Let people like Joseph Flanagan, Red Oak’s principal and former Wall Street speculator, manipulate and lead the City, and Fullerton will turn in a few years into one of the most dysfunctional metropolis known to mankind.

  16. Build it.

    Most of you are so stupid it’s unbelievable. This area has been garbage for as long as I’ve been here (30 years). Most of you entitled brats care more about the “look of your neighborhood” then the economical growth of the City and it’s entirety. ITS NOT EVEN IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD ITS ON COMMONWEALTH. All you have is horseshit speculations of parking places and “my kids can’t run around outside”, your children shouldn’t be in the streets to begin with unless you’re a shit parent. How dare someone want to develop on an empty lot next to train tracks and a busy street. How dare they want to repave and upgrade the infrastructure surrounding it. How dare they want to attempt to bring retail outward from downtown. Get off your high horse. This sets a precedence to build outward and down commonwealth. Between Woods and Euclid on Commonwealth, the majority looks like shit and you know it. Also you dumb shits scoffing at “Traffic Analysis after the fact!” How the hell do you think you can predict traffic patterns? Are you fucking magical? So we shouldn’t do anything because we can’t be 100% sure what the traffic will do. You all think with emotion and speculation on those emotions. Shut the fuck up.

    Morons, all of you.

    1. Anonymous
      Cursing is your thing. Kids play on the streets of my neighborhood and have very responsible parents. Economic growth can be achieved in many different ways and without worsening the lives and character of Fullerton.

      1. Moron #1:

        If you find it necessary to point out cursing you are a child who can not handle criticism. Kids should not be playing in the street and YES that is irresponsible of the parents no matter what way you want to paint the narrative. I’ll tell you what isn’t Economic growth. Our dumb shit mayor voting no to even have them adjust the plans in the first place. “Character of Fullerton” is bullshit. What is the “Character of Commonwealth”? Out of business signs and run down buildings? Get a grip.

      1. No. I say no because I care for Fullerton residents in other neighborhoods and is the wrong call for the city . Unlike you, I don’t say “if it’s not in my backyard, f**k em”

        1. Do you know how to count people? One person who says three things is not three people. Did you skip kindergarten? You know… that stage of learning when we are taught how to count units

          1. Ut oh, here comes Moron #1 not talking about the argument but instead focuses on the fact they are a moron. Well done.

              1. I’m still waiting… You going to state an argument I will utterly destroy or cry that I called you a moron? I’m waiting crybaby.

        2. Wow and the best way to get your point across is by insulting people. I believe this thread has already had enough insulting and name calling thus far . If you want to have a decent reasoned debate as to the merits of this project we can have that conversation,
          My view is I think it’s horrible idea, because the streets are already over packed, the building is interesting to look at but slamming more density into an already highly over populated area is only going to cause more traffic destroying our already crumbling infrastructure. Our water resources are so bare bones that we only have green grass after it rains, and slamming another 500 people into this area is only going to drain that further.
          The mixed density properties we already have, have an impossible time filling the retail space allotted to them, and we want to add more? Spaces sitting empty do nothing for anyone.
          The parking in this area is already a nightmare, if you watched the council meeting you saw the pictures of the project as projected from the different street views, and at least Drake was packed to the gills with cars. This will only serve to make that worse.
          Either we do this project, lift the over night parking ban and allow for people to park over night on the street or we keep the over night parking ban and don’t build it until the parking is properly adjusted. 1.9 cars per unit is unrealistic, and anyone who has ever lived in an apartment with more then adult knows that.
          Do I think the area on commonwealth looks bad? Sure. Aged empty car lots are not attractive, do I think I giant building teaming with college kids is the answer? No. I think they should have left it zoned commercial and should stop being hostile to businesses.
          If we are so desperate for open space and courtyards we should put in a park. The problem is the city has spent so much on unfunded pension liabilities, we are deficit spending our way into the poor house and have to have this giant project for the tax revenue.
          My solution- don’t build it and find a way to get the tax money else where and build something that fosters community. No adult with a family wants to live in apartment. This will not make it easier to buy a home, I promise you that. This fosters a transitory community of younger people who leave quickly after there leases are up.
          I lived in one of the high density apartments in down town. It is not long term living. This project is a band aide on a gaping wound and it’s not going to solve any problems.
          Call me a moron all you want, call me any name you would like. That will most definitely not change my mind.

          1. Moron #6

            Insults are great ways to get your points across when addressing non-issues of emotionally based arguments. The idea that they can not be is idiotic.

            “because the streets are already over packed” The analysis proving so would be greats bud not what you feel looks or is in your opinion. Some people think 5 cars is too much traffic. Highly subjective and not a concept measurable by feelings.

            “Our water resources are so bare bones that we only have green grass after it rains, and slamming another 500 people into this area is only going to drain that further.” Have you even looked at the water analysis, honestly? Are pipes are old obviously and we have tons of main breaks, rebuilding this portion of the infrastructure would be added to these plans on commonwealth. Overpopulated area you say? Again subjective, show me the stats space per capita of persons. Again feelings there are to many people is not a calculable thing for all peoples.

            “The mixed density properties we already have, have an impossible time filling the retail space allotted to them, and we want to add more? Spaces sitting empty do nothing for anyone.” An empty dealership does NOTHING EVER for anyone. How does sitting on it help?

            “The parking in this area is already a nightmare, if you watched the council meeting you saw the pictures of the project as projected from the different street views, and at least Drake was packed to the gills with cars. This will only serve to make that worse.” This is an assumption not a given. This is not a college student retreat of 4 tenants per room. Could it happen? Sure. Are we going to make decisions on speculation or fact?

            “Do I think the area on commonwealth looks bad? Sure. Aged empty car lots are not attractive, do I think I giant building teaming with college kids is the answer?” If you think college students are going anywhere near this thing you are nuts. Not with all the available places much closer for the same pricing. Also it is not a “giant building”. It’s height is similar to the buildings literally 300 feet away.

            “The problem is the city has spent so much on unfunded pension liabilities, we are deficit spending our way into the poor house and have to have this giant project for the tax revenue.” Obviously. It’s our firefighters mainly. It’s idiotic. We are desperate for funds and we should be bringing in as many businesses as we can to fix this. Not sitting on empty properties for years that could be generating revenue.

            “My solution- don’t build it and find a way to get the tax money else where and build something that fosters community. No adult with a family wants to live in apartment. This will not make it easier to buy a home, I promise you that. This fosters a transitory community of younger people who leave quickly after there leases are up.” Tax money does not appear out of no where. If you aren’t attracting people to come then it does not happen. You stepping on anyone that attempts to bring it in does not help either. You have businesses that refuse to come here because you all make it over complicated and not worth the trouble.

            “I lived in one of the high density apartments in down town. It is not long term living. This project is a band aide on a gaping wound and it’s not going to solve any problems.” It is not a band aide. It is not a fix all. It’s a separate issue entirely. Because it doesn’t “fix” the current issues doesn’t mean it should not happen. My verbal attacks are not in malice, they are a call for people like you to pay attention which you have. It has served it’s purpose. People have to be riled up before they listen to a person and are more engaged when insulted. I will retract my moron statement as you’ve engaged in a relatively decent manner. I disagree with you. This project has nothing to do with the Cities current issues. Those are separate and should be handled separately. You shouldn’t let your disdain for how the City is run to cloud your judgement of possibly well executed taxable revenue sources.

            -Not Moron #6

      1. Oh Moron #4

        I’d rather be a piece of shit then a straight up retard. Go smoke some pot and sink into your sofa further.

        1. “I’d rather be a piece of shit”

          LOL. Well good for you. You’re life’s work is complete. Your mom and dad must be very proud of their little turd.

          If your arm is long enough please reach up and pull the handle!

          1. You think “Piece of shit” is an insult? lmao

            Someones helmet is on a little too tight these days Moron #4. “The project is shit” Because? Reasons? You have nothing. Nothing factual anyway. Let me try to make your argument for you.

            Drrr Parking?? (NO FACTS SPECULATIONS)
            Drrr Traffic??? (NO FACTS SPECULATIONS)
            Drrr Kids Safety?? (Don’t be a shit parent)
            Drrr I want my neighborhood to look old (Not an argument, no one cares what YOU want)

            Bring them up and I will knock them down as you do it 😀

            1. “You think “Piece of shit” is an insult?”

              Not for you. It’s just descriptive and apparently quite acceptable.

              1. I don’t care how smart you think you are TTF, you will NEVER convince a stupid person that they are stupid.

                Tough to reflect on thoughts that never occur.

                1. Here’s an argument: the granting of zone changes and General Plan Amendments constitutes an entitlement that confers profit over and above what that developer will pay to close on this property. Therefore the profit has its origins in the public’s conference. And that means that the people who live in Fullerton and especially the neighbors should have a voice in the approval process; they have a right to complain about added the traffic of 296 dwellings; they have a right to complain about loss of on-street parking because the project misses code by 93 spaces; they have a right to complain about an out-of-scale monstrosity dumped right next to them.

                  If you and Fitzgerald find this obnoxious, then go tell your developer buddy to build something there that conforms with the existing zoning and General Plan.

                  It’s not our responsibility to make a bigger profit for Red Oak.

    The project boxcars are among the most tasteless aesthetics I remember in my lifetime . The uneducated mind would argue is a subjective point of view. Let me counterargue that anyone (like myself) who has deeply studied history, philosophy and social construction of aesthetics, knows that these representations OBJECTIVELY EMBODY very concrete dispositions and trajectories. Looking at the rear side of the project,- at the carboxes theme-, I I cannot but think, how embarrassing and laughable it is for a town housing several colleges to seriously allow this plan reach such an advanced stage.

    1. “The uneducated mind would argue is a subjective point of view.” lmao

      You can’t just change definitions this is EXACTLY what it is… You could be the most artsy fuck in the world, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s your opinion. Get of your high horse. Not an argument.

  18. I liked how our Mayor conducted Tuesday’s meeting. I liked his comments and vote on the Red Oak item. Thank you Mayor! I choose you over Fitzgerald hands down

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