Officer Joe Wolfe Indicted for Involuntary Manslaughter, Excessive Force

Well, that’s former officer Wolfe to you.  Here is the D.A.’s announcement:

THIRD FORMER FULLERTON POLICE OFFICER ARRAIGNED ON INDICTMENT FOR BEATING-DEATH OF 37-YEAR-OLD HOMELESS MAN

SANTA ANA – A third former Fullerton Police Department (FPD) officer was arraigned today after Orange County District Attorney (OCDA) Tony Rackauckas obtained an indictment from the Orange County Grand Jury against him for his criminal participation in the July 2011 beating-death of 37-year-old homeless man Kelly Thomas.

Former Officer Joseph Wolfe was indicted Sept. 24, 2012, on one felony count of involuntary manslaughter and one felony count of the use of excessive force. He faces a maximum sentence of four years in state prison if convicted. Per the statutory bail amount, Wolfe surrendered on $25,000 bail. The defendant is scheduled for a pre-trial hearing Nov. 2, 2012, at 9:00 a.m. in Department C-40, Central Justice Center, Santa Ana.

The first two defendants in this case, then-Officer Manuel Ramos and then-Corporal Jay Cicinelli (see below), were charged Sept. 21, 2011, in Case #11CF2575. Since that time, the OCDA has actively continued its investigation and legal review and decided to seek an indictment against Wolfe following extensive legal and factual analysis and development of evidence.

The Orange County Grand Jury heard testimony from 10 witnesses and examined 113 exhibits of evidence over three days beginning Sept. 19, 2012, before returning an indictment on Sept. 24, 2012.

The law requires that grand jury transcripts, including any evidence or testimony, to be sealed until 10 calendar days have passed from the date of receipt of those transcripts by the defense. Due to this restriction, the OCDA is legally prohibited from discussing any information related to the grand jury proceedings at this time.

279 Replies to “Officer Joe Wolfe Indicted for Involuntary Manslaughter, Excessive Force”

  1. Before any cop-troll posts about what good guys these are and how much their families are suffering because of this, I want to say how happy I am to know that these punks will be going to jail. Looking forward to the trial and the civil suit that will follow.

    Justice for Kelly Thomas!!!

      1. If the bust was a set up with the Slidebar to find a pretext to remove a homeless guy from where he had a right to be — and I’m not saying that it is — then I think that Wolfe has a chance of being convicted for excessive use of force. If it relates to something that happened after the baton blow, in the scrum, then I just can’t see well enough to tell.

  2. The OC Register had this information on its website. They still are covering up for the Fullerton (now 3) PD. The Register’s favorite apologist writer Lou Ponsi was a co-conspirator in the article. I am surprised he is still at the Register since the ownership has changed!

  3. OH and to Disgusted, the bail was set and met for $25,000 for involuntary manslaughter charge. Same as for Cicinelli. Will Ex-Officer Wolfe’s step dad come to Fullerton City Council to complain about the unfairness of the system, like Cicinelli’s step dad? Of course, they neglect to mention that Kelly Thomas is dead!
    FPD officers, how about some more high fives now? After all, some of you swore here that Wolfe would not be charged. Even though you knew Wolfe was going in front of the Grand Jury, some said he would not be charged. Ummmm, the jurors saw the film. They had a dozen witnesses telling what Wolfe did. I am sure he is a good ol boy. I am also sure he deserves to be charged.
    Wolfe is retired now, he should have been fired, but Officer Dan took the easy way out. He reads the Gennaco Kool Aid book!

    1. Well, perhaps the reason Wolfe was not charged along with the others was to give him the time needed to retire. Apparently such an option was not possible for the other two so no reason to delay the charges. If such is true then there is a problem with the prosecution in this case.

  4. Just to reiterate, a copy and paste from a recent post of mine:

    If charges are filed against Wolfe, it’s just politics. T-Rack is pushing this solely because he doesn’t want it to be an issue in his next re-election campaign. Not a snowball’s chance in hell of a conviction that would be upheld on appeal. Grand Jury rubberstamps everything the DA does, and there is no opportunity for Wolfe to present any sort of defense in a Grand Jury proceeding. The use of the Grand Jury here is because T-Rack has no case or a very weak case, and when Wolfe is acquitted or the case is overturned, T-Rack can push off blame on the Grand Jury. If T-Rack felt he had a strong case, he would have just filed charges without the need of Grand Jury proceedings.

      1. CCCB3 said that this was a repost of a previous comment — hence the “if.”

        Cold CCB3, I think that you’re pretty much right that this is just a CYA maneuver for Rackaukus — except for two possible scenarios that I spell out on OJB. (My analysis is added onto the end of Ryan Cantor’s piece.)

          1. Mike Carona didn’t get prosecuted by T-Rack, as they were close buddies. Corona was prosecuted by the feds. T-Rack did everything he could to ignore all the dirt with Corona and Jaramillo. This alone makes T-Rack unfit to hold the job, IMO.

        1. So you find it necessary to come here and peddle your long-winded drivel on another blog?

          Man, that’s just sad.

          1. I could have cut and pasted them here in their entirely instead of just referring to them. Would you have preferred that? I’m happy to do whichever you prefer, ‘poon, but those are your only two choices.

        2. Greg Diamond :
          CCCB3 said that this was a repost of a previous comment — hence the “if.”
          Cold CCB3, I think that you’re pretty much right that this is just a CYA maneuver for Rackaukus — except for two possible scenarios that I spell out on OJB. (My analysis is added onto the end of Ryan Cantor’s piece.)

          I read your comments.

          It’s not going to have anything to do with a pretext with Slidebar otherwise there would be conspiracy charges, and the Slidebar employee would also be charged with conspiracy as well as filing a false police report.

          I also don’t think it’s anything from the scrum.

          I have no idea what legal theory is being used to justify these charges. The argument seems to be along the lines of, “He shouldn’t have died, and Ramos and Wolfe initiated it after Ramos made the ‘fuck you up’ comment, so I’m charging them with murder and manslaughter.” Which, of course, probably won’t hold up at a trial and certainly not on appeal.

          As you’ve indicated, some of the lesser charges against Cicinelli will likely (and appropriately)stick.

          One interesting thing to note. Buried in the press release was this sentence: “The decision regarding seeking criminal charges against all three defendants was made by District Attorney Rackauckas.” That is not something I’ve ever seen before other than in this case, and it could be that whoever is assigned to prosecute this disagrees with the decision and wanted to cover his own butt. You can be pretty sure that Rackauckas is not going to handle the case in the courtroom.

          1. Good catch in that last paragraph.

            I agree with your paragraph about the legal theory. I would love to hear people explain why cops can’t hit people in the legs to try to knock them down if that’s the least damaging way of preventing them from trying to escape custody. The only explanation I can come up with is when the bust is illegitimate and the cop knows (or should know) it — but that’s not about the act itself.

            We don’t have a good view of the scrum, so I don’t know, but you’re probably right. I just can’t rule it out.

            OK, it seems likely that you would need to be able to prove conspiracy charges to make a clear “sham arrest” theory work. I wonder, though, if they’re just lacking one element of this (hard to prove) charge, with the remainder being sufficient to ground the manslaughter charge. You no doubt have more experience thinking that sort of thing through than I do.

    1. I hope it doesn’t make you feel warm and fuzzy that Greg Diamond agrees with you.

      His record as a prognosticator on this blog is unparalled, in that he has a way of always choosing the wrong side.

      1. Fullerton Lover :
        I hope it doesn’t make you feel warm and fuzzy that Greg Diamond agrees with you.

        It doesn’t. Never read his bio until now. Didn’t know he was an attorney. And any affiliation to the Occupy movement always makes me want to puke. 🙂 (Sorry, Greg!)

        I’m not seeking validation or fans here. Just killing some time and offering a reasoned, opposing view in an effort to get at least some folks to see both sides of the coin. Being able to see both sides of an argument is usually the key to overcoming differences and working together for a reasonable solution acceptable to both sides.

        1. I like your motivation and your reasoning, however I don’t understand why you think that your offering an opposing view? Opposing what? If you think that we’re all a bunch of anarchists, your dead wrong.
          Fullerton residents just don’t like police officers that abuse the power that we entrusted them with, and think that in fairness to the officers who still want to serve the residents of our city, you’ve got to expeditiously eradicate the bad apples before they ruin the whole barrel and we all go hungry.

          1. Be intellectually honest, FLover; it’s way beyond just opposing excessive use of force. You guys want to break the union, possibly disband the force, possible declare bankruptcy to get out of pension obligations. “Opposing that,” I presume.

              1. I only speak for myself as well. “You guys” are the regular commenters here who (as Kiger and Whitaker did in the infamous LA Times article) openly wanted to use Kelly Thomas’s death as a means of disbanding the FPD until you realized that it was making you look bad and then retreated to talking only about how horrible it was that he got killed, which worked in the recall.

                1. Well, have you ever commented on the threads of corruption that are woven into the fabric of the FPD, or the amounts in civil court it’s going to cost us? Of course you haven’t because it doesn’t fit your pro-establishment political agenda.

                  And that makes you a hypocrite and a coward.

                  But if you wish to try now, please explain away:

                  Albert Rincon
                  Miguel Salcido
                  Christopher Wren
                  Vincent Mater
                  April Baughman
                  Kelly Mejia
                  Todd Major
                  Kenton Hampton (Veth Mam)
                  Frank Nguyen
                  etc, etc.

                2. Are you kidding me?

                  Every chance you get your asking people if something that someone else wrote is offensive and wondering aloud why no one else is upset?

                  Most intelligent people understand that you cannot impose your own sense of morality on others?

                  Have I ever accused you of being intelligent?

                  Case closed.

                3. I’ve never defended or condoned any of the wrongful behavior you mention, Fred, although I don’t remember the offensive acts of about a third of the names.

                  What I have said is that (1) unfortunately, I don’t think that those offenses over the years are necessarily that unusual for a police force, (2) much of the behavior would not necessarily reflect a “Culture of Corruption” different from the “Blue Wall of Silence” that you see in many or most police departments, and (3) to the extent that FPD did have a problem with it’s management — and I believe that it did — the new leadership of the department seems to be an improvement so I would not condemn it for those past acts.

                  I wish that I believed that you were truly more interested in the noble cause of stopping excessive use of force by police than in just using this tragedy as a means of pushing your fight against public sector unions, public pensions, and government services generally. But that seems to be your actual higher priority. (Or maybe Anaheim was just too far away for you to travel?)

              2. Dime Bag is just trying to turn reform at City Hall into something scary that will rile up the Sizzler Special crowd that might possibly cast a vote for the Old Nag.

                It won’t work since those people don’t own computers.

                1. Assuming that you mean that I’m trying to call attention to the use of a tragedy to advance the Bushalification Church’s agenda of tearing down government wherever possible, you’re damn right I am.

                  “Those people don’t own computers.” How charmingly bigoted. You’d be surprised how many politically engaged retirees do own and use computers. (Then again, you’d probably be surprised by the sun coming up in the morning.)

          2. What is wrong with wanting to break the union?

            This is an organization who has historically and repeatedly enabled it’s members to rape, steal, kill and do so with an arrogance and on taxpayer money.

            I think that disbanding the union is more important than convicting these three monsters. God has a ay of dealing with the Joe Wolfes of the world, like when his children start to resent him and he falls into an alcholic abyss.

            The FPOA is absolutely culpable and and electeds like SQS who cozy up to them might as well shine the baton’s for the next kill.

              1. “I wish that I believed that you were truly more interested in the noble cause of stopping excessive use of force by police than in just using this tragedy as a means of pushing your fight against public sector unions, public pensions, and government services generally. But that seems to be your actual higher priority. (Or maybe Anaheim was just too far away for you to travel?)”

                I speak only for myself here. The LE unions are a big part of the problem, and since you told me that you have never belonged to a union, you do NOT know what you are talking about. The union that I belonged to is as corrupt as the administration in the LA County. I was pro-union for many years, but that was just my naivete.

                On the other hand, police brutality is out of control. Why? Because it is allowed by the administration and the UNION!

                According to its history, this is exactly the opposite of how unions were supposed to develop in this country. They were SUPPOSED to help the labor force, not grant money and favors to elected leaders, completely neglecting some of the hostile workplaces that were in their charge.

                Greg, you really need to get up to speed.

                1. Unions have been mostly good but sometimes bad. I’ve dealt with them politically for a long time, despite not being a member; I’m currently in a big fight with some of them (405 toll lanes) and getting alone reasonably well with most. So I am “up to speed,” thanks, and not overgeneralizing from one bad experience with them (as you seem to have had.)

                  I try not to post links to my OJB pieces here, but here’s one that I think you might enjoy reading. I think that many people see small evils around them and build them up into big catastrophes or huge corruption. The article discusses an actual big catastrophe that is, I think, in stark contrast to what is happening in Fullerton.

                2. “So I am “up to speed,” thanks, and not overgeneralizing from one bad experience with them (as you seem to have had.)”

                  Geez Greg, you seem awfully dense sometimes. My “one” bad experience showed me a lot. I got to see behind the scenes negotiations, which included all kinds of departments within LA county. I am not over-generalizing, and what a silly argument. You assume that no one is as intelligent as you, so you give no credence to what he or she says. I however, I have enough intelligence to see through you. You believe you’re thinking like a lawyer, but your mind is closed.

                  I want to say something about hot air, oh yeah, boy is it hot today!

                  “Unions have been mostly good but sometimes bad. I’ve dealt with them politically for a long time, despite not being a member;”

                  There you go. You’ve never actually been represented by a union, so you don’t know what goes on behind your beautiful political curtain and in the workplace.

                3. Being represented by a union is not the only way to form a legitimate opinion of unions. I’ve dealt with unions in politics (and sometimes in law) for years. And while I’m truly sorry that you had a bad experience, you can’t extrapolate from that to all or most unions any more than having worked for a bad boss allows one to say that all or most bosses are bad.

                  I don’t mean this to be demeaning. But you just can’t legitimately generalize like you — especially without showing awareness of how our work lives would be without unions fighting for workers’ rights.

                4. “Being represented by a union is not the only way to form a legitimate opinion of unions. I’ve dealt with unions in politics (and sometimes in law) for years. And while I’m truly sorry that you had a bad experience, you can’t extrapolate from that to all or most unions any more than having worked for a bad boss allows one to say that all or most bosses are bad.”

                  I’m not extrapolating anything. You don’t know me, not that I want that, but the truth is that you don’t. I’m sure I have as much education as you do, if not more. I belonged to the Service Employees International (SEIU), one of the biggest service unions in the country.

                  “Being represented by a union is not the only way to form a legitimate opinion of unions.”

                  Nor is belonging to all the unions the only way to form a legitimate opinion. I believe I have seen enough to understand the basics and to form a good, informed opinion, and that is just what it is: my opinion!

                5. “I don’t mean this to be demeaning. But you just can’t legitimately generalize like you — especially without showing awareness of how our work lives would be without unions fighting for workers’ rights.”

                  You DO mean it to be demeaning. Don’t lie. You love to show how educated and smart you are, at the expense understanding another’s point of view.

            1. Repeatedly enable it’s members to rape, steal and whatever….Can you tell when all these happened repeatedly…Making up stories for a nice sunny Sunday morning?

              1. Can we start first with Officer Albert Rincon and the countless women, including a Mother and a Daughter, that were sexually assaulted while the officers were in uniform and on duty being paid by the residents of Fullerton to protect our women?

                Sounds like a good start to me.

                1. Judge reprimands Fullerton police
                  Seven women had accused Officer Albert Rincon of sexually harassing them or groping them during arrests. Two of them filed suit, and a judge has refused to throw out their case.
                  http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/03/local/la-me-fullerton-cops-20111004

                  I”n a strongly worded opinion, U.S. District Judge Andrew Guilford refused last week to throw out a lawsuit by two of the women. After the ruling, the city of Fullerton tentatively agreed to settle the case, according to attorneys and court records.

                  Guilford questioned why the department gave the officer a “weak reprimand” despite accusations from multiple victims that raise “disturbing allegations of police misconduct.”

                  “At the end of the day, the city put Rincon back onto the streets to continue arresting women despite a pattern of sexual harassment allegations. A reasonable juror could conclude based on these facts, that the city simply did not care what officers did to women during arrest,” Guilford wrote.

                  The judge said the city’s action “suggests a tacit authorization.”

                  Rincon is now on administrative leave, said Sgt. Andrew Goodrich, the department spokesman. Sources familiar with the settlement, but not authorized to discuss it, said the settlement totals about $500,000. Neither Rincon nor his attorney could be reached for comment.”

                2. Ok..We all know about that one. You all keep beating a dead horse. Have you checked the accountablility of other police departments. They all have problems. Fullerton is not the only one. It happens in all walks of life. Not only cops.

              2. Still want to hear some more Fullerton Police Department’s behavior regarding rape JOHN DOE, or would you like to move on to another subject such as stealing?

                1. Stealing, Rape, no police department is perfect. Look at Sheriffs, Anaheim, Costa Mesa, Westminster…etc….

        2. Occupy was camped in Fullerton for almost two months 24/7 without serious incident, C3B3, doing its best to bring a message of political reform and economic fairness to the people (without the likes of Tony’s quarter-million-dollar sponsorship.) We followed the rules, honored the law, and (with the exception of a few doofuses), left when we said we were leaving. I negotiated those particulars with Felz, Hughes, and Quirk-Silva and despite serious disagreements it all worked out well. I’m happy both that I volunteered many hours to help highlight those issues and that I was instrumental in keeping it all law-abiding and non-violent.

          So, if you’re a cop who didn’t want things to go the way of Berkeley, Oakland, San Diego, Long Beach, Sacramento, LA, and so on — you’re welcome! If you had wanted to try on riot gear, at least you maybe had Anaheim!

          1. I wish Wolfe and Ramos had gone after you and your Occupy chums with batons (as a legitimate part of their jobs, of course). It might have given you a better perspective of the Kelly Thomas murder.

            1. That’s a lovely sentiment.

              They were given no opportunity to do so here, due largely to the negotiation I had done (and to self-restraint on the part of the government.) I knew, we made it look easy, right?

              Don’t worry, though: plenty of Occupy protesters elsewhere got beaten and otherwise injured by police. That includes lots of people from OC who went to Long Beach, LA, and elsewhere for confrontations. They just didn’t do it here. Do you know why? Because it’s not the way to appeal to people in Orange County.

              My perspective on the killing of Kelly Thomas is fine, thanks; I wish something could give you perspective on what does and doesn’t constitute a crime.

              1. Since you are not a criminal lawyer I would suggest that your fussy little argumentation is nothing more than an attempt to take heat off the FPD and its culture of corruption – only insofar as it reflects badly on the do-nothing Quirk, and of course the Old Nag, now that she has the FPOA seal of approval.

                Well guess what? Too late.

                1. I studied (and have published on) criminal law issues at Columbia. But again, put down the ad hominem. You can judge my arguments by what they say, not by who said them.

                  Quirk-Silva was not “do-nothing”; Flory has FPOA support because (1) when she’s a critic of the police, she’s going to be fair about it, and (2) unlike the FFFF candidates, she’s not out to burn government to the ground.

                2. Did you want me to send you the campaign contribution forms detailing the support that Jan Flory and Mayor SSSSSSilva have received over the years from the law enforcement community here in Fullerton?

                  Would that convince you?

                3. Maybe the alternatives were terrible from their perspective. I just posted in response to the most recent story Flory’s response to an Ackerman attack ad in 2002, where she addresses NOT having gotten the police endorsement because she apparently would’t dance to their tune well enough. The position she expresses there towards the police seems quite reasonable.

              2. Maybe that’s because you hid the Occupy protesters from public view behind the dam.

                You think that might have had some influence on the FPD’s decision to leave you alone?

                1. We were only at the Dam (not our choice, by the way) for I think a couple of weeks. We moved to the intersection of Harbor and Brea as soon as we could and were quite visible for well over a month. I guess that you never came by there.

          2. Greg, don’t read too much into my original comment about Occupy. Also keep in mind that I have a sense of humor.

            I’ve got mixed feelings about Occupy. I see their point, but have strong disagreements with the way *some* of the people involved went about getting the message out.

            I never have a problem with anyone who wants to express their political views in a lawful manner.

            1. I have mixed feelings about some of what goes on too, but I’ve never been involved in a movement where more widely disparate people — in terms of class, education, and politics — tried pulling the same yoke. So, yeah, I’m somewhat protective of it.

              (OK, OK — I see the joke. You’ve been here long enough to see why I may presume I’m being slammed by commenters here. The odds are with me there.)

      2. Hello? Back up that claim about my “record,” FLover. I’m sure that you can come up with an example or two, but “unparalleled” and “always”? Really now.

        1. I don’t think that there is enough hours in the day to compile the list of losers you’ve chosen to affiliate yourself with.

          Have you no shame man?

          1. Chaffee, Georgieff, Williams. I went 1 for 3 in the recall.

            Maybe you just write slowly. Perez lost to, but I don’t recall writing about him here — and, even so, it cost a million bucks to stop him.

            1. Chaffee? The man who wore an I ♥ FPD T-shirt on the council dais? Of course you like that an elected who is supposed to represent the interests of the citizens got into bed with the cop union right off the bat.

              Nice.

        2. Let start with the Occupy movement which was supposed to bring visibility to a host of social issues plaguing America…

          Where did you stage that at?

          Where no Fullerton resident could see them, even if they came looking for them.

          Why do you think Mayor SSSSSSSSSSSSilva allowed you all to camp out there for free?

          1. We were initially at the Brea Dam, then we moved to the corner of Harbor and Brea, which is quite well-trafficked and easily visible. We engaged in marches, visits to colleges, had events, spoke to groups, volunteered in local soup kitchens, etc.

            Given the resources we had to work with, we did pretty well. If you think you could do a better job of calling attention to those issues … then I wish you would have.

                1. Absolutely!

                  Book of Matthew Chapter 6 Verse 2:

                  “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

                2. FLover, I’m a political agitator and reform, much like you’d call Tony except without the inherited fortune. The trumpet is not to celebrate myself but to call people to arms.

              1. You nailed it. That zit isn’t happy unless he’s promoting his self-trumpeted “accomplishments.” That’s usually stuff done by somebody else. He’s a real parasite.

  5. Can someone tell me exactly what changed from when Rackaukas reviewed the evidence and charged Ramos and Ciccianelli and now several months later, charged Wolfe?
    Left to his own devices, I think Rackaukas would never have charged Wolfe on his own……..I think some pressure from the Feds entered the equation here.

      1. The County asked for the FBI, to investigate, very early on. In a world news event other Governments would also investigate, just as the FBI would investigate other countries when such events occur.

    1. Its about a month before a big election. There is the “60’s Radical Experiment” about to be blown into Depression era history. Always thought the 60s was a lot about peace and love, not Government brutality and leftist centralized all knowing, all better control!!!

  6. They are no longer PD, just gangsters. And everyone knows that when you are bad, sooner or later it catches up with you. You all know sometimes it takes years to find the guilty parties. The 3 are a small sacrifice to take the fall for many.

      1. Some will remain standing, but the 3 will fall. It’s amazing how the 3 are taking the fall. Most bad people in their situation would be screaming by now and pointing fingers. I wonder how much they were paid, to keep their mouths shut.

        1. Unless there’s more that we don’t yet know about, only Cicinelli will take the fall. His behavior was inexcusable, so there’s not much point in his pointing fingers.

              1. These are very intelligent successful concerned citizens, why would they have to teat on taxpayer money. (email alerts are wonderful while working!)

                They could of always got what they wanted, they would have just needed to put money in someone like yours’ pockets.

                They just want the people to be safe, wether the are MCSATAN, JAN FLORY, or involved with Tow Truck companies or “Pocketable Redevelopment”

            1. Yeah — that’s part of why I was gone from here for three days. (Although, to be fair, not much is going on here anyway. What happened to your writers?)

              This IS part of “working on my campaign.” FFFF isn’t read only by its fans, you know.

        2. No one is going to fall. Do you really think these 3 cops wanted to even touch that smelly bum, whould you? No one is saying nothing because there is nothing to say. They cant believe what a bullshit case this is.

  7. Mickey Haller :
    The Feds haven’t even started looking at this case.

    Lifesaving Service :
    The County asked for the FBI, to investigate, very early on. In a world news event other Governments would also investigate, just as the FBI would investigate other countries when such events occur.

    There are witness reports of Feds at FPD very early on.

    Disneyland would have investigated.

  8. Protesters +3 , good job all that stood up and said no more fucked up cops. Maybe the cops will have a bit of a reality check.

  9. Feds have been involved since about day one….and Chicken….this wasnt just about the protestors or brought on by the protestors- although we cannot discount them. This was brought on by thousands of emails and Ron Thomas…lets give credit where it belongs.

      1. Unless there was a conspiracy to roust him or something non-Cicinelli happened in the scrum, you mean.

        I think that Ramos, in particular, acted wrongly. You don’t seem to get that for various reasons that doesn’t make it the same as acting illegally. Did he try to intimidate Kelly into compliance? Sure. Was it ugly? Absolutely. Is doing that when his discretion indicates it part of his actual job? Well, actually, it is.

        1. Fortunately even the cop lovin’ DA disagrees with you. And how many criminal cases have you tried? In round numbers.

          Oh, right. The roundest of all: zero.

          Opinions are like cloacas. Everybody’s got one.

          1. In my opinion, the DA is responding to political pressure and fully expects that the cases against Ramos and Wolfe to go south (either in trial or on appeal.) He has a good shot against Cicinelli. But I’m happy to argue the facts and the law here rather than just what different players are doing.

            I’ve never tried a criminal case — although some asylum cases do result in death when one loses.

            People, barring an unfortunate mutation, don’t have cloacas.

                1. True that.

                  I’ll take someone who learns to trust his/her senses, over solicitors who have learned not to, any day of the week.

        2. Very true Mr. Diamond, cops can say whatever they want to get the truth even “we have to talk to you everyday”. Remember that famous question? Part of the job.

    1. I’d say unequivocably that Jane Rands stands heads and shoulders above any candidate on her efforts to assist those that are without shelter at night.

  10. The Fullerton Harpoon :
    “They are no longer PD, just gangsters.”
    The difference being?

    Gangsters are usually trying to make money and influence.

    PDs are getting their thrills, they already have most a citys’ money. (“They call themselves adrenaline junkies”) Dangling pensions and benefits for silence and cooperation is against The Constitution, Justice, Their Oaths, The Bible and “Common Sense”.

    1. Jane Rands, and that is a fact. She cared when Kelly was alive, she cared when after he was killed. She cares today. I know, I cared to. Many of them know her by name, because she engages with them. She is the real deal.

      1. Agreed Steve. We need someone like Jane who understands the power of love, instead of Jan Flory who loves the power.

  11. Who didn’t know that was coming. I pray we don’t have to see another unctuous letter from some cop begging for money to save the “poor, hardworking father” from jail time. I’ve noticed the murderer supporters have thinned out on here. It’s pretty much just their family members and fellow cop/ex-cops now.

    Anyone hear what’s up with the other 3 accomplices? I can’t imagine they’re coming off desk duty anytime soon.

    1. A lot have had enough of this blogs bias opinions. Only a few are left to deal with the idiots. But all are going to be happy when Bushala’smoney was used to put Kiger in office and he is going to be out in November. Wasted hundreds…down the toilet.

  12. On another “overpaid cop costs taxpayers millions with his lack of ability to control raging testosterone” anyone know what happened to the campus cop who pepper sprayed the peaceful protesters? Reminds me a little bit of the cops who took pleasure off of beating, hosing down, and unleashing vicious dogs on protestors during the civil rights movement. These power tripping po-po’s seem to get off on trying to quell anyone who tries to rise up and question the system.

      1. Gomer was played by Vincent D’Onofrio, a great actor in one of his first major roles. You may know him from Law and Order series.
        He stole the movie “Full Metal Jacket”!

    1. Yeah, Brandon, there is some resemblance. Hopefully Wolfe will meet the same fate that Private Pyle met in Full Metal Jacket. All FPD pork rinds should be sent to the gas chamber.
      Wolfe, Cicinelli, and Ramos are GUILTY of murder. Those 3 should be sent to the gas chamber.

      1. “All FPD pork rinds should be sent to the gas chamber.
        Wolfe, Cicinelli, and Ramos are GUILTY of murder. Those 3 should be sent to the gas chamber.”

        This is completely out of line. Anyone agree? (Cue the crickets.)

      2. I would rather see Ramos blow his brains out .

        Wolfe and Cincinelli swallow a pill, wash it down with some jack and let the kids find them.

        I am serious. I think these three cowards should save us all some time and money and load the Glock.

          1. I thought so.

            I hope the FPOA has lost the juice that your cities PD has.

            There are a couple of little girls who watched officer Pappa, unload a .45 in his mouth. After the FPOA President called thier Mom a deranged Bitch.

            yeah the unions are great……..

            1. I agree that the union should not require disgraced officers to commit violent suicide in front of their young daughters — if that’s what you’re suggesting here. I’m pretty sure that they don’t, though.

  13. Maybe its a Plea Deal for the News Media, the DAs Office can threaten to up the charges, or sentencing suggestions, like they do on TV Dramas. (the list of future charges are endless)

    I read somewhere last September, the DA would not be dealing down charges. to Ron Thomas.

  14. The proof of wolfe’s culpability in the murder of Kelly Thomas is clearly seen and heard in the video recorded at the bus station .
    The only defense I may offer for Wolfe, Ramos, Cicinelli is they were subjected to the leadership and police work philosophy of bedroom city commando, retired Fullerton police chief from 1993 to 2009 , Pat McKinley. McKinley’ s strong arm tactics at the behest of his masters , city council,persons Jones and Bankhead while Fullerton’s police chief led his police force down the road of civil rights abuses upon Fullerton’s community. Turning a police force int a gang of thugs occurred when McKinley and Fullerton’s city council consistently bought hush through legal settlements to the victims of Fullerton PD.
    Why is McKinley not brought to the front of the KellymThomas beating? After all, McKinley did not hesitate to step forward on national media, CNN for one, to tell the nation his rogue police force did not beat KellymThomas to death. Once ovwhelming evidence showed his personally hired officers did murder a disabled, homeless man, McKinley became conspicuously silent on this matter.
    Just my opinion

  15. Had it not been for the light shinned on Wolfe and the pressure put on the DA by the real activist (Marlena, Shelly, Dana, Renee, Ricky, Boz, Scott, Ryan, Susan, etc., etc.) week end and week out, they never would have filed charged on Wolfe.

    1. Gotta disagree with you. I give the credit to Ron Thomas. For all of his grandstanding that was one of the issues he tenaciously clung to: Wolfe must be charged.

  16. Great. Three cops charged for killing a man who endorse Jan Flory. And Jan is “proud” to have their endorsement!

    That’s really, really messed up.

  17. Wolfe mugshot A.P. 10-27-2012, LA Times.

    “Podberesky questioned whether “external pressures or political response to public outcry” had motivated the decision. Fullerton has been in political upheaval since the beating.” -Wolfe (at the transportation center) Attorney

    Comment,

    “Republitarian at 11:56 PM September 27, 2012
    You know, I worked for LA City Atty defending LAPD, worked for a police dept, and have friends that are cops. All too often, rightous uses of force by police are called unreasonable, especially by this poor excuse of a newspaper.
    But on this one, I got nothing. From everything I can tell, these sonsabiches murdered this poor man.
    Here’s a protip for law enforcement officers: If two or more police oifficers cannot detain, restrain and put an unnarmed man into custody without using lethal force, then you need to find another career. I worked with the mentally ill for years, unarmed, and often put them in restraints, and not one of them ever needed so much as a Band-Aid after.”

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0928-kelly-thomas-20120928,0,472502.story

  18. Do these tax-eating cop trolls realize how hated they are, how worthless their “service” is, and how everyone will be better off when they just go away?

    Question for you public “serving” parasites – how does it feel to live out your lives realizing that society would be so much better without you???

      1. Indeed, I can’t stand tax-eating parasites with badges who think they can initiate violence.
        Soon the localities will go bankrupt, and tax eaters like you will be right where you belong – homeless on the street.

        Your skills of bullying and ordering are worthless, and your work ethic will not last you a day in the honest private market.

        1. I think that the last time I saw the dollar amount of the civil suit settlements that have been due to the Fullerton Police Department, that if they were to setlle them all today that we would as a city be forced to declare a fiscal emergency and then file for bankruptcy.

          The dark irony here is that the very same people that stood to benefit the most from the city of Fullerton’s largesse, will be the ones that will be hurt the most when the city declares bankruptcy.

          I honestly don’t think it’s a matter of will we declare bankruptcy, it’s when we’ll declare bankruptcy.

          1. Correct. One thing to note – people of Fullerton should embrace bankruptcy. Only tax eaters will be effected.

            Until Fullerton goes into bankruptcy, tax eaters will collect their loot.

              1. Of course you would hate to see what I wish – because you are a tax eater! Bankruptcy = tax victims are released from the evil tax obligations to tax eaters!

                Bankruptcy Now! The Sooner the Better! Every day before Bankruptcy is an extra day feeding parasites!

          2. That’s clearly what people have been cheering for here — and not just ones as apparently unbalanced as Alex.

            This site will make good reading someday — for a bankruptcy judge.

              1. Good point. Technically, I could only list pseudonyms, not “people.” They may all be like 3-4 actual people.

  19. I also noticed that in the LA Times, that the DA is requesting a motion to try the three little pigs at the same time.

  20. Laws are open for inturpatation Cold Chillin’, and you are certinly entitled to your inturpatation. However I for one feel that the Grand Juries inturpatation is simply a prelude to the jury that will sit in judgement of these officers. I believe that says it all

  21. EIGHT lawful commands. The number of police orders that were given to Kelly Thomas after he was detained for breaking into cars in the lots around the Slidebar. EIGHT commands that were ignored and disobeyed , one-by-one. If he would have just cooperated Smelly Kelly would still be alive today — stealing mail and breaking into cars and menacing people downtown.

    http://friendsforjay.org

    1. Lisa, since you were on the moon, let me fill you in – Kelly was cleared of “stealing mail and breaking into cars and menacing people downtown”.

      He was compliant, until he was – very justifiably so – scared for his life.

      Now, I don’t know what your story is, you are definitely a tax eater parasite with a badge, or married/related to one.

      I can’t wait for Fullerton to declare bankruptcy and throw all obligations to tax eaters like you into garbage can. And then you’ll be where you belong – homeless on the street, with worthless (in the private market) skill set.

      And everyone will point a finger at you, and your collegues and laugh at you, and call you a parasite.

    2. Lisa,

      I have a neighbor that has Alzheimers disease.

      If he were walking around our neighborhood and became lost and the police were called because he was acting suspicious, how many lawful commands would be acceptable before the police officers start striking him for failure to comply?

      I say zero, but that’s just me being me.

      1. And this is exactly the reason why cops – with such training and attitude – should not be allowed to roam the streets.

        Fire and jail all cops that initiate violence. If someone doesn’t comply with your stupid commands while you are barking them – the person can be sick, and you shouldn’t put their lives in danger. Your pathetic parasite tax-eating life is not more important than someone else’s!

        If anything, it is less important – you did sign up for this pathetic job. So, take the risk. You are still less likely to die on the job than roofers or fishermen – the people who actually do good for the society

    3. You are exactly what we thought you were! your post proves the point time and time again. The one eyed monster will not roam the streets of Fullerton ever again and that’s how we prefer it!

  22. Good riddance to these bums. Any cop who who acts like these 6 non-humans should be behind bars. They are ticking time bombs. Any cops who back these heathens should be ashamed as well. All 6 stood there when the EMT arrived and let a man bleed to death and said nothing! nothing! That in itself anti-human and the people do not need these monsters in a uniform. GOOD RIDDANCE! GOOD RIDDANCE! GOOD RIDDANCE! 3 down 3 to go!!!!!!!!! You cannot re train the hate out of these guys. Molestation,thievery,murder ENOUGH! Go away! Justice for Kelly and Justice for all!

    1. Lisa is not concerned with facts. All she cares about is getting her husband/brother/master (or as I like to call them, murderers) off scott free. Not gonna happen Lisa.

  23. Wolfe’s attorney stated that he was acting to “subdue a suspect who was combative that wouldn’t give his name”. On that warm summer evening as most of us were tucking our kids into bed and preparing for work the next day, in my opinion, the streets of Fullerton under the Patriot Act became Guantanamo Bay and Kelly Thomas was deemed an enemy combatant thus the macabre justification for torture was employed on Kelly to obtain information. The local magistrates and the people of this great City and Nation have in our possession what appears to be the complete account of the murder of Kelly Thomas. The evidence consists of multiple sources of audio, video, and eyewitness accounts of men and women. I believe that if these men are acquitted and go free that NO ONE IS SAFE -NO ONE. In my opinion the current proceedings against these officers will be the most significant litmus test of our rights as Americans in our lifetimes right in our own backyard. EVERYONE of the officers of the Fullerton Police Department have SWORN an oath to the US Constitution. The future survival of the American people hinges on our ability to defend ourselves when our lives are threatened. May I submit to you that if justice system systematically fails a murder victim when all the planets are in harmonic convergence then our rights as Americans will have become mere privileges. May God help us and may our leaders realize that it is never too late to do the right thing.

    1. “Wolfe’s attorney stated that he was acting to “Subdue a suspect who was combative that wouldn’t give his name”.
      I ask all of you: Did Wolfe’s attorney swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God? He did NOT? Then the truthfulness of his words are about the same as the truthfulness of Lisa’s words!
      Never ever take an attorney’s words as the truth when he is being paid to represent a client. They lie! Really? Yes, its true.

  24. Fullerton Lover :
    Lisa,
    I have a neighbor that has Alzheimers disease.
    If he were walking around our neighborhood and became lost and the police were called because he was acting suspicious, how many lawful commands would be acceptable before the police officers start striking him for failure to comply?
    I say zero, but that’s just me being me.

    Has it been established that the commands were “lawful”?

    If the commands were “lawful”, has it been established that Kelly did not attempt to comply?

    1. I think it’s also important to note that Kelly was seated on the pavement while Manny Ramos stood menacingly above him and was putting on rubber gloves and asking Kelly to “look at the hands that are about to fuck you up”.

      Are there any of you out there NOT going to stand up and at least give your self a fair chance to survive at that point in time?

      I would think that it’s autonomous of human nature to have a fight or flight response to that level of threat, and as such, is legal.

      1. I’ve never had anyone say that to me, I’ve certainly never had anyone say that AFTER puting on rubber gloves.

        So with that said, I think I would have chose the “flight” response.

  25. How is it that Hampton, Craig and Blatney arrived at the same time, or within minutes of Cicinelli, and did not know that they were failing to stop and contributing to a beating death? They’re either really poorly trained or just did not give a shit about stopping the murder. Either way, they have to go. Does anyone know if the Feds can still bring charges against them w/o anything being filed by the DA?

  26. Well spoken Truthseeker, but IMO the conviction of all three ex-officers will be only a small victory. Wolfe and Cicinelli will be out in 2 years, and Ramos in 10 or so. In order for society to truly benefit from this tragedy we need major reform to what cops can and can not do under the protection of the badge. Without demanding 4 year university training, better psychological screenings, and laws that protect citizens from thuggish cops like the ones who killed Kelly Thomas, I don’t see much changing with convictions on watered down charges against these three.

  27. Biased opinions Haller? Evidently you have not been to any of your cop buddies websites. Like typical po-po’s they censor anyone who disagrees with them. People like yourself who condone murder as long as it is done under the guise of doing your job, can spew out whatever they want here.

    And if you want to talk about wasting money on people who will be gone soon. The FPD is spending tens of millions in legal fees and lawsuits on these wastes who will be incarcerated soon and never disgrace the uniform again.

    1. If anyone censors, it’s this blog. They dont want to hear the truth just made up lies from this blog’s discontents. City of Fullerton, DA and others that I will not mention. (you know who you are) will loose millions for defemations of character, false arrest and other accusations.

  28. Hampton, Craig and Blatney arrived after Wolfe, Ramos and then Cicinelli. It is obvious under FPD training by Chief Pat McPension that you do not de-escalate when you arrive. You pitch in and do the high fives after.
    Now a word about municipal bankruptcy, notice NO Fullerton bond issues have been sent out the past year? No bond agency wants anything to do with Fullerton finances since they saw fit to be self insured. Ask Joe Felz. He is the city manager and former parks and recreation administrator.
    If the city needs money, too bad. Maybe they can raise the water tax!! I talked to several in the muni bond business and with all this hanging over Fullerton, they are a pariah until everything is financially settled.

  29. I saw a baby once, It really did not understand what I wanted it to do. I would tell it to do things it could not do because of it’s development. I told it to stop crying 8 times in a row. It did not stop crying so I beat it to death. 8 times is my limit and then I kill things.

    1. Lisa, unfortunately, this analogy does make sense. The preponderence of the evidence is that all those who are forced to look at this case, from the witnesses, to the city council, to the FPD brass, to Genacco, to the DA, to the grand jury, to the electorate of Fullerton, all seem to come to the conclusion that this was an unnecessary police provocation and escalation that led to a wrongful death, if not murder at the hands of the police.

      In this case, it is clear that eight commands by the police not stringently complied with does not justify death. It is troubling that Jay stated that if he had to do it all over again, he would behave the same way. Most others want changes.

      I also note that I followed the the link to friendsforjay.org again and noted that nothing has been updated for eight months.

      God bless.

  30. Lisa :
    EIGHT lawful commands. The number of police orders that were given to Kelly Thomas after he was detained for breaking into cars in the lots around the Slidebar. EIGHT commands that were ignored and disobeyed , one-by-one. If he would have just cooperated Smelly Kelly would still be alive today — stealing mail and breaking into cars and menacing people downtown.
    http://friendsforjay.org

    Oh, Lisa, my dearest! You’ve returned from the abyss! I knew you’d be back, even though most had written you off, I always had the utmost confidence in your resolve. Though many find you Bright and Dark, I’ve come to appreciate your ability to focus like the laser of love on the big picture. Your steadfast loyalty to your errant brother, so irritating to others, is something I find rather endearing. Indeed, he seems to be coping with his present life situation quite admirably – I love how he used the butt-end of his taser to tenderize those cheaper cuts of meat you had forgotten about in the back of the freezer, allowing you to serve it up as last nights special, “Veal Piccata”. Very resourceful. Not such a bad guy at all, though I must admit I don’t much care for his swarthy friend, the unemployed bloke with the scabby elbows and the physique of a Slave Trader.

    So what do you say, Lisa my sweet? Let’s take a break from this mind-numbing madness. After I change my urine-encrusted bedsheets, I’ll swing by the house on my Huffy, and give you a ride on my handlebars out to the canals, for one last dip in the iridescent waters, before the days get too chilly. Then, we can spend the nights in the clubhouse, warmed by the kerosene heater and the Positive Energy of our Love.

    Ever So Sincerely Yours,

    MittRomneysDog,

    Eighth Lawful Owner Of your Heart

  31. I have never served on a jury.
    I have never been called to show up for jury selection.
    Does anyone know what kind of questions they ask ?
    Do they ask any questions like; have you been following this case in the papers and on blogs?

    1. Saying that the war on drugs was inherently racist got me excused from a crack pipe case involving a Hispanic. The defense attorney started laughing when I began quoting Judge Jim Grey to the Judge. He was very pleasant and excused me with no animosity and he made known in open court his high regard for Judge Grey.

  32. Having been on several juries, this case may involve a questionnaire to get a “feel” for the jury pool. The last time I was called was the *first* time I had a questionnaire to complete – the case was multiple child molestation counts against the defendant.

    What’s called “voir dire” (the questions while you’re one of the 12 people sitting in the jury box waiting to see if you’re selected) often are simple – do you know the defendant? do you know any of the attorneys? Then there are basic questions relating to the charges (example – DUI cases – do you drink? do you drive and drink? have you ever been arrested?)

  33. Well, I was called for a federal jury and they can keep you for more than one case, by the way. It was interesting. You get excused if they think you know anyone involved. But, in an interstate accident case, they asked if I knew how a trombone works and I said yes. The accident caused a part time musician to be injured to the extent he could not extend his arm all the way out to play the trombone. Well, I told them there were “fakes” that professional trombonists used to get to notes that were relatively far apart on the scale. They immediately excused me.
    Sometimes they do not want jurors to know too much. If we are all lucky, they will move the trial to another county! It’s possible!

  34. Yeah – I know that about more than one case (got called, didn’t have to go in) but sure pays better than OC 🙂 I kept asking them to define “business casual” clothing because I’m retired and I have only a few things that might fit that definition. T-shirts, jeans and bare feet are my clothing du jour most days.

  35. I live in Alabama but follow this blog frequently since the tragic unnecessary killing of Kelly Thomas. Just so you are aware ,this horrible act has attracted national attention . Police brutality is wide spread,i hear of it everyday. I applaud this blog and the citizens of Fullerton for keeping this incident alive in the minds of us who are working to end this brutal behavior. In all cases ,the rot runs deep,keep digging.

    1. Thanks for your support bentndent.

      We’re mortified here in Fullerton that we’ve attracted national and world wide attention, yet some part of me says that a lot of good will happen from our bad.

  36. Does anybody know if the businesses in DTF have been effected by any of this. I don’t go down there after dark anymore. As I hear it from others, it is business as usual, drunks, fighting, stabbings, death. FPD not doing their job.

    1. prior to the media attention given to the Kelly thomas murder by fullerton PD, I use to enjoy going to Fullerton’s downtown area for a meal or just to walk around and enjoy the festive atmosphere.
      Since the kelly thomas murder, I have never returned to Fullerton’s downtown businesses and restaurants and I avoid shopping in Fullerton. I’ll drive to La Habra or La Mirada for my gas and groceries.
      I will not patronize any business in fullerton until Fullerton’s city council is purged of its old regime .

        1. I’m not going to purchase ANYTHING in Fullerton, won’t even stop for fuel. How long before business owners in Fullerton figure out the color of “wackos” money is green. Won’t go back till the other 3 Hampton, Blatney, Craig are fired!

  37. Thanks for your post bent. I am happy to hear the Thomas murder is getting national attention. Hopefully this will put more pressure on removing the rest of the involved parties in the murder from the force and bringing respect back to the hardworking, decent cops in Fullerton.

  38. I once had a puppy, it poo pooed on the floor. Even though it did not comprehend what I wanted it to do (stop poo pooing on my carpet) I told it 8 times to stop. I then beat it to death after 8 times after telling it to stop. 8 times is my limit and then I kill things.

  39. I once had a friend who parked in front of my house. I told my friend 8 times to stop blocking the street in front of my house. They did not stop so i beat them to death, 8 times is my limit.

  40. I was a junior in high school, seniors made fun of me. I warned the 8 times to stop. They did not so I beat them to death, 8 times is my limit.

  41. Jay wanted me to do kinky things to him. I said 8 times that I did not want to. He tried to beat me to death, 8 times is his limit.

  42. I had a boyfriend in school, he wanted sex. I told him 8 times no. Then I beat him to death 8 times is my limit and the death is okay.

    1. Yep, Lisa is a classic cass of psycopothy. She can’t figure out why people and animals would want to defy her. Like all sociopaths, she thinks she is in command of the universe.

    1. It seems when Fullerton PD announced that 3 of 6 were returning to desk duty, it pissed somebody off and got a Grand Jury on the 1 retired on disability. What kind of leadership is that? Thats when the News Crews returned to Fullerton Council meetings, there is usually only one.

      Its the age old struggle between good and stupid.
      🙁

    2. Crazy Lisa: I guess Lisa didn’t kill her cat because a cat has nine lives and that’s one over her limit.

  43. My men did the right thing beating that dirty bum, I’ll make sure they won’t see prison!!!!hahahahahahahahahahaha Kelly’s army is finished!!!!!!!!

    1. Wow a celebrity!

      “#3 by Empathy Over Elitism on October 6, 2009
      Our downtown was absolutely trashed under Pat McKinley’s command. For years he let the abuse of the likes of former officer John Cross go unpunished, only taking action when individual officers who had seen enough of this kind of sanctioned bad-coppery anonymously contacted The Fullerton Observer ( article here ), because McKinley was doing nothing to clean his dirty house.

      The condoned beatings (CAUGHT ON TAPE but only punishable by demotion in McKinley’s eyes), the hate crimes, illegal procedural enforcement (audio recorders not used), ignoring of years of complaints, the additional cost of at least four more full-time officers, and zappy new tasers to try out on the drunks…and silly vests…and who knows what all other money making schemes deemed necessary because of the lawlessness in Fullerton that McKinley helped create.

      Some of us plebs haven’t forgotten yet how this game was played the expense of our community’s safety, peace, and tax dollars. Pat McKinley should be ashamed at what a terrible job he has done.

      REPLY QUOTE
      #4 by Travis on October 6, 2009
      Hmmm… sounds like we have some research to do.

      #5 by Pavor Nocturnus on October 6, 2009
      Good lord, another city insider poised to attach himself to the machine like a crusty old barnacle! When will we be allowed to wake up from this never-ending string of nightmares?” -FFFF

      “Years ago the Observer printed a series of
      articles inspired by Fullerton police officers who contacted the paper anonymously in early 2005. They were fed up with
      the corrupt actions of a fellow officer and
      with what they saw as lax discipline dolled
      out to him by department management.
      They felt the officer, John Cross (and his
      partner Gregg Nowling) were giving the
      dept. a bad name and creating a situation
      where other bad cops would feel they
      could also get away with anything.
      The most serious complaint against
      Officer Cross involved the beating of a
      handcuffed young black man in the elevator of the police station. Stopped for playing his car radio too loud, the young man
      was arrested after giving a false name to
      police. The beating was caught on tape
      and witnessed. Cross was demoted, but
      not dismissed.
      Other complaints over the years included: an insurance kick-back scheme involving the Police Association, which cost the
      city money (Cross was president at the
      time); repeated failure to turn on his DAR
      (digital audio recording) device as
      required by law. The device records what
      happens during an incident with the public. It prevents corruption, as well as protecting both officers and the public in
      contested cases; failing to follow up on a
      case of a potential suicide; and other incidents of conduct unbecoming an officer.
      The final straw came when he failed to
      contact dispatch when an intoxicated offduty sheriff was brandishing a weapon
      near a local business. Although no shooting incident occurred the outcome could
      have been very different. Because it was
      not reported to dispatch the incident was
      never fully investigated, allowing a crime
      by law enforcement to go unpunished.
      Police Chief Pat McKinley (now
      retired) fired Cross in August of 2007.
      Cross immediately contested but the arbitrator held up the termination. His final
      appeal was heard in a closed City Council
      session and comes before the open session
      for a final decision on Aug. 4th.” – Fullerton Observer

      1. what is puzzling about the Fullerton Observer ratting out Fullerton police officer John Cross gross abuse of detainees, though a recurrent theme for Fullerton police officers, is Fullerton Observer’s editor Sharon Kennedy’s brother, rusty Kennedy six years earlier awarded then Fullerton Police Chief Pat McKinley a thousand dollars and an award for Fullerton PD’s outstanding community oriented policing program.
        Was Pat McKinley once a moral man capable of using ethics to lead and guide his police force? Or was McKinley always covering up his police force’s civil rights abuses against the community of Fullerton? Maybe Rusty Kennedy may answer this question since Pat McKinley served on Rusty Kennedy’s Orange County Human Relations Commission whose mission statement is to act as a “clearinghouse” and “mediator” for OC communities complaints of civil rights abuses committed against them by their local law enforcement agencies, including the Fullerton PD

  44. Crazy Lisa, I think I luv ya!
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?
    Will ya marry me?

  45. That piss-soaked retard would still be alive had he simply followed direction and provided yes/no answers. Instead he decided to be a smart ass and fight 6 cops. Darwinism at its finest.

    1. Yeah, Kelly was a criminal mastermind that mentally manuevered those 6 loads into an indefensible position so they had no choice, having been outsmarted, they regained control of the situation by striking him with batons, tasering him, kneeing him in the face repeatedly, while dog-pileing thier fat ass’s on him and suffocating the lifes breath from him, but this dangerous criminal must have deserved it, his crime? Oh yeah, he was innocent of any wrong doing.

  46. “If” is a pretty big small word, so here we are, baby sitting 3 piss soaked lil’ pigs who have no impulse control. Well at least when they go to prison they will be out of sight out of mind.

  47. Someone had better go and buy Wolfe some fried pickles, a bowl of mac & cheese and some watered down drinks at the Slidebar. He looks a lil’ peaked in his booking photo.

  48. By 8 lawful commands disturbing logic, Cicinelli needs to get stamped out. I mean, regardless of whether or not he’s mentally fit, he’s missing an eye. And Ramos and Wolfe aren’t exactly what one would consider fit. One would assume these three are not the brightest bulbs either, seeing as how they operated on pure animal instinct in beating Kelly Thomas to death. Guess someone needs to snuff them out so the “fittest” can survive.

    1. I suppose that you can try changing Yom Kippur to a week How could you fail?

      The cheese runs especially thick in the comments to this story.

  49. Greg Diamond :Assuming that you mean that I’m trying to call attention to the use of a tragedy to advance the Bushalification Church’s agenda of tearing down government wherever possible, you’re damn right I am.
    “Those people don’t own computers.” How charmingly bigoted. You’d be surprised how many politically engaged retirees do own and use computers. (Then again, you’d probably be surprised by the sun coming up in the morning.)

    Where is the LIKE button!!!

  50. Fred Alcazar :
    Well, have you ever commented on the threads of corruption that are woven into the fabric of the FPD, or the amounts in civil court it’s going to cost us? Of course you haven’t because it doesn’t fit your pro-establishment political agenda.
    And that makes you a hypocrite and a coward.
    But if you wish to try now, please explain away:
    Albert Rincon
    Miguel Salcido
    Christopher Wren
    Vincent Mater
    April Baughman
    Kelly Mejia
    Todd Major
    Kenton Hampton (Veth Mam)
    Frank Nguyen
    etc, etc.

    Crickets!

  51. Greg Diamond :
    I studied (and have published on) criminal law issues at Columbia. But again, put down the ad hominem. You can judge my arguments by what they say, not by who said them.
    Quirk-Silva was not “do-nothing”; Flory has FPOA support because (1) when she’s a critic of the police, she’s going to be fair about it, and (2) unlike the FFFF candidates, she’s not out to burn government to the ground.

    And when was the Old Nag ever a “critic” of the cops? Tell us all about it.

    Quirk did NOTHING in the wake of the KT killing except some make-nice talk. She never did squat about Rincon or any other of the dirty cops. It’s sickening to watch her drool over “Chief Danny.”

  52. Greg Diamond :
    I’ve never defended or condoned any of the wrongful behavior you mention, Fred, although I don’t remember the offensive acts of about a third of the names.
    What I have said is that (1) unfortunately, I don’t think that those offenses over the years are necessarily that unusual for a police force, (2) much of the behavior would not necessarily reflect a “Culture of Corruption” different from the “Blue Wall of Silence” that you see in many or most police departments, and (3) to the extent that FPD did have a problem with it’s management — and I believe that it did — the new leadership of the department seems to be an improvement so I would not condemn it for those past acts.
    I wish that I believed that you were truly more interested in the noble cause of stopping excessive use of force by police than in just using this tragedy as a means of pushing your fight against public sector unions, public pensions, and government services generally. But that seems to be your actual higher priority. (Or maybe Anaheim was just too far away for you to travel?)

    Too bad you only made yourself familiar with a third of those names. We know the other two-thirds plus others not mentioned.

    At least you have made your shallow hypocrisy known. Albert Rincon serially molested women in his custody. Mater may have abetted a suicide. Siliceo put the wrong man in jail. Hampton beat up and arrested an innocent man just for the hell of it. Baughman stole thousands from the evidence room along with an as yet unnamed accomplice. Mejia stole a computer from a TSA checkpoint and was observed on camera. Major ripped off a bunch of kids to feed his pill habit. Perry Thayer and Cary Tong have been named in accusations of assualt and battery. Christopher Wren plead nolo contendere to unlawful imprisonment (of a minor). Etc., etc.

    I love how you sing the praises of “new maangement” conveniently overlooking the fact that Hughes was in charge of the Fullerton six and gave them all a free pass; he would have gotten away with it except for Tony Bushala – whose got more integrity in his little toenail than you have in your whole bloated carcass.

    God damn, I feel sorry for you. You really are a cipher.

    1. I know about Rincon (he’s been discussed plenty here), Hampton (I saw that awful Veth Mam video here), and Mejia. My understanding is that the above problems you mention happened over a fair number of years. My sense is that a similar number of similar problems may have occurred in Brea, Anaheim, Buena Park, etc. — as well as OCSD.

      I also think that Fullerton did a poor job in some cases — including Kelly Thomas’s — of hiring, training, and supervision. What Cicinelli did speaks to all three. What Ramos did speaks to, at a minimum, training; probably more. And I do give (and always have given) Tony and this blog a lot of credit for picking up and running with the story. The problems are (1) the decision not to try to see multiple sides of it — like looking to see the prevalence of problems in peer departments — and instead just being agitators, and (2) eventually choosing to use it for political gain to push a broader anti-public employee and anti-government services agenda..

      My dealings with Hughes himself have been for the most part decent — he kept his word and his sense of proportion in negotiating with Occupy, and I can’t say that that was true of all police — but I don’t have strong opinions about him. What I’ve heard from people, including police critics, is that he’s more modern and professional than McKinley or Sellers were. (He had to answer to Sellers and ultimately to the Council majority during the period in question.)

      I did here him give a really good and sensible talk on community policing this past year. If he’s essentially a reformer, stuck in a department that needed reform, then the question is what he could or should have done differently at the time. (I don’t think that he would have condoned the practices seen out there and her had admitted that some of the atrocious things like letting the cops see the video were errors — but who know who pushed for that?)

      We agitators (left, right, whatever) always think that people should be willing to throw themselves on the pyre in protest when something’s wrong in an organization, but I recognize that there’s also a need for people of good will who will accommodate to the system until they’re in a position of power to change things.

      I think that the jury’s out on Hughes, but I don’t think that his having done what he had to do if he was not to resign at the time shows that he was corrupt or complicit. Could be — but sometimes reform in a bureaucracy is more complicated than we’d like to think. That’s why, while I tend to be a firebrand within my county party, I don’t condemn anyone who isn’t. Real reform does require lots of different roles.

      I hope that that makes me less of a cipher to you.

      1. I actually agree with 99% of your post Greg.

        The use of the word “here” instead of “hear” was your one point off.

        ; )

      2. “My understanding is that the above problems you mention happened over a fair number of years.”

        About four years, most of which occurred in the past two. You just can’t admit you don’t know what you’re talking about, your need to be heard being so pressing.

        FFFF has documented a dozen instances of cop malfeasance within the past few years. Address the corruption or be a tool.

  53. Lifesaving Service :

    Judge reprimands Fullerton police
    Seven women had accused Officer Albert Rincon of sexually harassing them or groping them during arrests. Two of them filed suit, and a judge has refused to throw out their case.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/03/local/la-me-fullerton-cops-20111004

    I”n a strongly worded opinion, U.S. District Judge Andrew Guilford refused last week to throw out a lawsuit by two of the women. After the ruling, the city of Fullerton tentatively agreed to settle the case, according to attorneys and court records.

    Guilford questioned why the department gave the officer a “weak reprimand” despite accusations from multiple victims that raise “disturbing allegations of police misconduct.”

    “At the end of the day, the city put Rincon back onto the streets to continue arresting women despite a pattern of sexual harassment allegations. A reasonable juror could conclude based on these facts, that the city simply did not care what officers did to women during arrest,” Guilford wrote.

    The judge said the city’s action “suggests a tacit authorization.”

    Rincon is now on administrative leave, said Sgt. Andrew Goodrich, the department spokesman. Sources familiar with the settlement, but not authorized to discuss it, said the settlement totals about $500,000. Neither Rincon nor his attorney could be reached for comment.”

    Dime Store thinks that’s SOP, and SOP ain’t that bad.

    I think Dime Bag and Patdown Pat McKinley are two peas in the same pod: apologists for the bent status quo.

  54. Mickey Haller :
    FBI came, looked around and left….nothing.

    They only had to see the video, and interview a few people, then it was time for SCOOBY AND SHAGGY to take over.

    1. Annonymous (NON TROLL) :

      Mickey Haller :
      FBI came, looked around and left….nothing.

      They only had to see the video, and interview a few people, then it was time for SCOOBY AND SHAGGY to take over.

      Heath Ledger – Incredible Acting
      “Heath Ledger’s performance as Joker in “The Dark Knight” is a masterpiece from all points of view.”
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8PxG5zvgOM

      IMDB
      Title: A Knight’s Tale Trailer
      Description: After his master dies, a peasant squire, fueled by his desire for food and glory, creates a new identity for himself as a knighthttp://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi2427715865/

      1. They saw the video and asked, why did they call them for. Spoke to a few people and said, go back to tent city (Hunts Library).

  55. OC Pioneers Who Were Klan Members: Harry E. Inskeep, Fullerton Justice of the Peace
    By Gustavo Arellano Mon., Jan. 23 2012 at 5:00 PM
    “Inskeep was the justice of the peace for Fullerton in 1919, just as the KKK was ready to exert its influence in Orange County and right before the term of fellow Klukker William French. Wonder how many wrongfully convicted Mexicans Inskeep threw in the slammer during his time as the city’s holder of the scales–another project for another year…”
    http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2012/01/harry_e_inskeep_fullerton.php

    “50 Reasons Why Orange County is The Worst Effing Place in America
    http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2012/09/50_reasons_why_orange_county_is_the_worst_place_in_america.php?page=4

    38. Homeless-killing cops in Fullerton, unarmed-Latino-killing cops in Anaheim, and asshole cops in Newport Beach. And despite those terrible departments, everyone agrees the worst police department in the county resides in Huntington Beach.

    37. There are still people who believe the Fullerton Police Department was justified in killing Kelly Thomas, because cops can’t do anything wrong here.

    14. Orange County Register readers, a group so horrific that Register reporters once wrote a letter to their editor demanding he no longer let them comment online. They tried to stop Register readers by switching over to requiring people to create an online identity–didn’t work. They tried by forcing people to comment via Facebook–didn’t work. Every single comment an Orange County Register reader leaves is a depressing reminder of how we continue to devolve as a species–and how fucked up Orange County will always be.”

  56. Will Ken Hampton be charged next? Don’t get me wrong – each one of the remaining three are good candidates to be charged – but Ken is particularly dangerous to the public. He needs to be caged ASAP!

    1. No he’s clear on KT (although he might sue Cicinelli for zapping him with the taser:). But he’s still got some explaining to do about the Veth Mam beat down and arrest.

      Ditto alleged assualt on the Quinonez chap.

      1. From what I saw, I think that Hampton should have been charged in the Veth Mam case. Of course, I haven’t heard the other side. I said as much the last time the video was shown here (which is the first time I’d seen it.)

        Don’t recall the Quinonez case.

        If you think my complaints about Cicinelli are mostly about zapping with the taser as opposed to beating the face in with the taser, you have not been reading my comments carefully enough.

    1. That really depends on how metaphorical you’re being, “Fred.” Have you tried Drano?

      (By the way, I do have a cousin named Mike, but that’s not him.)

  57. Greg Diamond :

    FLover, I’m a political agitator and reform, much like you’d call Tony except without the inherited fortune. The trumpet is not to celebrate myself but to call people to arms.

    Sad statement. You have no fortune because you are a fat, lazy piece of pig excrement. Tony has worked hard his whole life. You haven’t worked a day in yours. Big difference.

    QED

    1. Well, I said “without the *inherited* fortune.” Then again, my father is still alive.

      You keep on pretending to know the first damn thing about my work history. I keep correcting you, but you don’t stop. I wonder why.

      You have also sinned against the concept of “QED.”

      1. I know you didn’t even pretend to get a real job into your 30s and then couldn’t hold one.

        Bushala’s father is still alive too and so far as I know has never given Tony a nickel. Too bad your FPOA narrative as told to you by Quirk is wrong.

        1. No, I didn’t work as a “professional* until I turned 30 because that’s about how long it takes to get a Ph.D. I’d correct the rest, but you’d just make up something else.

          I don’t think the narrative comes from SQS. As I recall, I’ve heard it multiple times (although given what you say about Tony’s dad I must not have gotten that part right.)

          If you’re knowledge of Tony’s work career is as accurate as your knowledge of mine, he could be almost anything from a professional dog walker to a Chinese movie hero.

  58. In the Philadelphia case the policeman charged with possible brutality is on administrative duties. Internal affairs is investigating. Translation: Cop gets full pay and after a long “investigation” will be placed back on duty. The time will be long in hopes that the community forgets all about the incident.
    Thus it can be said that the police union which allows a cop to be placed for extended periods of time on admin duties, runs Philadelphia Police. The rules were made by the union.

  59. It doesn’t mean dissolve the force, just get rid of the officers who have little or no ability to regulate their emotions and actions. These slaps on the wrist are an embarrassment to the public as well as the honest, hard-working cops on the force.

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