“Let The Wheels of Justice Turn” Sayeth Pat PcPension


Those ladies were't like you...

Here’s an article from the tanking OC Register about the Kelly Thomas murder case, that includes a delicious quote from Mr. She Bear himself, the egregious former Fullerton Police Chief, Pat McKinley, who nonchalantly admitted he hired all the brutal thugs involved in the remorseless killing of the schizophrenic homeless man. “Let the wheels of justice turn!” says Pat.

The Wheels of Justice. Anybody who has reviewed the checkered career and sayings of McKinley, or the activities of the gang of thugs, pickpockets, perverts, con men, petty thieves, perjurers, and casual liars that he loosed upon Fullerton, may well question whether McKinley has any concept of justice at all.

O Patience! preaches McKinley, now a city councilman. Surely all the evidence is not in! The pathetic plea for more time to clear his thuggish hirelings is telling, as was his previous wink-wink comment about how good his goons’ lawyers are. But for McKinley time is the proverbial double-edged sword. For even as he admonishes us to wait out a protracted legal process that is designed in almost every way to avoid prosecuting criminal cops, his own political time is quickly running out.

Oh yes, it’s hard to avoid the gratuitous sharing of the irrelevant tidbit that McKinley is on vacation. Is this a sly reference to departed, disabled former Chief Mike Sellers who went on vacation in the days following Kelly Thomas’s murder? Naw, because that would be clever and insightful. Rather, we are left to wonder if, with a mere four weeks until the recall election, McKinley has all but given up fighting for his job; or maybe he is so confident that the somnolent folks of Fullerton will turn a blind eye to his own perverse incompetence, that he can afford to vacation – after all, nobody has ever cared what he did, or didn’t do before.

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  1. #1 by The Fullerton Harpoon on May 11, 2012

    “Nothing is the same at the end as it is in the beginning,” said McKinley.

    Hey we got us a philosopher on the line!

  2. #2 by English Major on May 11, 2012

    True enough. At the beginning of his encounter with the FPD Kelly Thomas was alive. At the end of it he was dead.

  3. #3 by Fred Alcazar on May 11, 2012

    Or he could be in hiding, afraid to go to the council meeting next week to really hear it from Kelly’s Army and Matt Rowe.

  4. #4 by Johnny Donut on May 11, 2012

    At the begining of his political carrer, Pat McKinley was a psychopath with a history of leading violent felons into battle against the residents of Fullerton. At the end of his career…nevermind.

  5. #5 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    He’s on vacation? Bad timing if so. He and Jones have been noticeably absent from the past two candidates forum. This speaks volume. Perhaps they went with the thought, “better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”. But wait, this never stopped them before, especially Jones. At least Bankhead showed up. Alas, he didn’t get the memo about that quote. He still seems to think his age and length of time on the dais are enough to keep his seat. His responses were lame and when given a yes/no question, which meant a 50-50 shot of getting it right, he failed. Do you support Laura’s Law? The others gave an immediate yes. Blankhead stammered, finally said he wasn’t familiar with it so he’d have to say no. There were a few gasps, including mine. With all that’s happened regarding Kelly, including this law being mentioned at several council meetings not just by commenter but by Sharon and Bruce, how could not know? Sickening… But I digress…perhaps McKinley feared making the same blunders. Of his various names, should we now include McCoward?

  6. #6 by Anonymous on May 11, 2012

    Pat McKinley again was a no show at an official candidate event, the League of Women Voters forum.

    How convenient that the week of two candidate events and the Kelly Thomas preliminary hearings, McKinley goes on vacation.

    However, his hand picked successor, Doug Chaffe was there to carry the torch for McKinley and the good old boy network.

    Chaffee stated last night that between his wife and himself, he only counts as 1/2 person and his wife is 1 and 1/2 persons.

    He also used his mother’s death as the sole reason he has been missing in action from the council or any leadership role in the city since the 2010 elections.

  7. #7 by The Fullerton Harpoon on May 11, 2012

    He’s only half a person? Too bad his wife isn’t running.

  8. #8 by Plain Glazed on May 11, 2012

    McKinley’s on vacation? Maybe he’s in Syria studying crowd dispersal techniques.

  9. #9 by One for the books on May 11, 2012

    Unfortunately, the City of Fullerton is now known throughout the world as a place you can be murdered by its police, just for sitting on a bench!

  10. #10 by merijoe on May 11, 2012

    Pat McLooney’s Kabuki Dance-

    “nothing is the same at the end as it is in the beginning”
    (except for his arrogance/mental illness/abuse)

    “you have to have patience and let the wheels of justice turn”
    (like the patience/justice those 6 FPD/tasers/fists had with Kelly)

    “I had my eyes bloused a few times”
    (wonder what the circumstances were behind that)

    “those ladies weren’t people like this-believe me”
    (excuse me? so we have the right to judge who’s who and do whatever we want if we deem you aren’t acceptable to society)

    “those renegades, I call, aliens”
    (so he hires renegades)

    Seriously, I can’t bear to listen to the tape, but how many times does Kelly scream that he’s sorry and can’t breathe?

  11. #11 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Laura’s law is nothing more than a big government solution with court ordered treatment and compulsory drugging of anyone deemed “mentally ill” by government paid “experts”

    NO THANKS! less government can lead to private citizen solutions for the mentally ill. Public funded mental health programs ALWAYS lead to corruption and abuse of the patients.

    More government is not the solution. The reason there isn’t more services for the mentally ill is because the system puts roadblocks in the way of citizens creating not for profit organizations that could serve the mentally ill. Its the usual suspects of permits, licenses and zoning laws that keep the mentally ill on the streets and hungry.

  12. #12 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Just like the Patriot Act isn’t patriotic. Laura’s law doesn’t protect Laura or anyone else.

  13. #13 by merijoe on May 11, 2012

    One more-

    “I think cancelling (the water tax) tonight as a knee jerk reaction I have to disagree with”
    (that way he can still maintain control )

  14. #14 by Momof4js on May 11, 2012

    I don’t know where else to ask this question- it’s a bit off topic – but do any of you know first hand about the FP shooting last night in the area of Gilbert and Malvern? I think I heard the police shot a man after a car chase. We live by SHHS and heard the sirens and helicopter around midnight.

  15. #16 by Momof4js on May 11, 2012

    Thanks Tracey.
    Ugh – this makes me anxious – given everything that has happened in Fullerton with the Kelly Thomas case.
    Is it just me, but I find I’m wondering if the testimony of the shooting is accurate.
    I lack confidence and don’t trust our police department.

  16. #17 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    Hi mom of 4js. I’m curious. Do I know you? Does your name start with a B by any chance.

  17. #18 by Fred Alcazar on May 11, 2012

    Yes, the FPD has no reason to take our trust for granted.

  18. #20 by James Cameron on May 11, 2012

    Good call. The worst part of this is how the proponents want to leverage Kelly’s murder to promote this.

  19. #21 by Momof4js on May 11, 2012

    Tracey from FC & H?

  20. #22 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    I don’t believe a word of the FPD OR The Register. ALL public employees should be assumed guilty until proven innocent because they are on the tax payers dime and corruption is rampant, especially when the public employee has a gun and a badge.

  21. #23 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    That’s me! We have to catch up! I think of you all the time. I moved and am now in the neighborhood your sister-in-law lives/lived in so unless you moved, I am real close to you. How is everything? We have to get together. I hope you an your family are doing good.

  22. #24 by Just my personal opinion on May 11, 2012

    If I didn’t know any better I would say they took advantage of the low light situation and blew the guy away then planted a gun or perhaps it’ll come out that the “gun” floated down the river and was never found.

    Something about this just doesn’t smell right and given Fullerton PD’s history I’m not buying anything until more is known (by the way, I thought an outside agency is supposed to investigate use of force incidents).

    Just my personal opinion.

  23. #25 by Anonymous on May 11, 2012

    I have been thinking about the initial encounter in the Kelly Thomas video.
    Kelly was asked something about where her sleeps and he responds with a reference to trash cans.
    Is there a law concerning where the homeless can or cannot sleep? I am wondering if Kelly knew this and gave the trash can answer to avoid any trouble.

  24. #26 by Plain Glazed on May 11, 2012

    No surveillance cameras in the drainage tunnel.

  25. #27 by JustUs on May 11, 2012

    Sorry, Pat. My eyes and ears don’t lie, buddy. I don’t need 12 goofballs picked from biased sources to tell me how to think. That video and audio were more than enough evidence for this boy. All you got left now is “let the wheel’s of justice turn” :) because you know you are one of the pukes who helped orchestrate the environment which allowed it all to happen. This boy thinks you should be on trial too along with the other 2 stooges who you collaborate with. You know damned well that by the time the verdict comes back you’ll be long gone. The citizens of Fullerton should pack the house at the next Council meeting and blast you with verbal garbage. Personally, I could cuss you out for 15 minutes and never repeat myself. Before the recall and before your permanent departure all good citizens should come to the aid of Kelly Thomas and publicly dress you down. The Council meeting is the appropriate venue for that.

  26. #28 by The cops-on-homeless-man case that no one has heard of on May 11, 2012

  27. #29 by Momof4js on May 11, 2012

    Hey there lady! Is your email the same… T—2bl—@aol.com?

  28. #30 by Petition circulates to charge all officers involved in Kelly Thomas incident on May 11, 2012

  29. #31 by Plain Glazed on May 11, 2012

    When in doubt the suspect must be on drugs. If he is not on drugs, just lie and say he was.

    I hope the homeless man wins that suit. And if we do end up getting rid of the FPD and getting county deputies instead, beware, because in the final analysis they are still cops. Which means they will still make things up, frame suspects, beat on innocent civilians, and all the rest of the stuff that we routinely allow cops to get away with.

    I want cops running scared, not us running scared from cops.

  30. #32 by Editorial: In Thomas case, put focus on city officials on May 11, 2012

    Criminal case will resolve officers’ culpability, but did city leaders impede probe?

    http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/thomas-353629-death-police.html

  31. #33 by merijoe on May 11, 2012

    I like what Capt Tranparency (invisable) has to say in the article:

    Acting Fullerton Police Chief Dan Hughes acknowledged that the case has focused “a lot of attention” on the department. But he said the department has cooperated with the District Attorney’s Office; for example, he said, it was the police department that synced the audio from the officers’ recorders to the surveillance video, which prosecutors used in the hearing.
    (So THERE, I tells ya!)

    Hughes declined to comment on the case itself, because he’s overseeing an internal investigation of the Thomas death. But he said the department has changed its use-of-force policies, revised its training manual and launched a task force to look at policies involving homeless and mentally ill people.
    (An “internal investigation” stops the chief of police who is adamat about being transparent from commenting?)

    “All of these are steps we are trying to do to be more transparent and, most importantly, to hold officers more accountable,” Hughes said.
    (Happy?)

  32. #34 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    It is. I just sent you an email from my work. That is if yours is still the same.

  33. #35 by Concerned Texan on May 11, 2012

    I really like at least two of the points which the author makes in the article. It was important to the Federal judge that the victim did not have drugs in his system, nor did the officers have probable cause to detain him. I hope these points can be applied in the Kelly Thomas case.

  34. #36 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    I think he’ll stick his head in the sand.

  35. #37 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    McCoward

    Good one.

  36. #38 by Momof4js on May 11, 2012

    I agree!

  37. #39 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    “how many times does Kelly scream that he’s sorry and can’t breathe?”

    One is too many.

  38. #40 by Conejo on May 11, 2012

    Won’t happn and whn this is done you will realize that T-rack is using this for political exposure. His DA’s don’t even think this is a crim. He is a tool like all of you

  39. #41 by JustUs on May 11, 2012

    If there was information that favored his cops (even if it was fabricated) I bet he wouldn’t hesitate to shoot off his mouth. We have already noted such behavior from FPD since the start of this case. Trust Hughes no farther than you could throw him. He is not protecting your interests. He is protecting his own interests and those of his fellow cops. Please see through the smoke screens.

  40. #42 by Plain Glazed on May 11, 2012

    “A Crim.” We got us a regular Inspector Clouseau over here.

    Hey moron. Vowels, unlike jelly donuts, are free. Use ‘em.

  41. #43 by Another voter on May 11, 2012

    Where did McKinley send his little lackeys in the FPD for training – the drug cartels down south?

  42. #44 by TheMoron on May 11, 2012

    JustUs;

    You got my vote for Mayor……………

  43. #45 by merijoe on May 11, 2012

    Yes, I agree, one is too many, yet he screams it over and over and over in his torture chamber without anyone doing a damn thing about it..

  44. #46 by JustUs on May 11, 2012

    I’m unelectable, TheMoron.

    They would call me “too divisive”.

    The sheep would rather be barraged with lies then have someone in power tell them the truth.

    That is why nearly all politicians are liars. Because the sheep tolerate it.

  45. #47 by truthseeker on May 11, 2012

    I am not so sure. The way I see it-those that choose to remain sheep don’t matter anymore. There are conservatively 15000+ people in this town that were sheep have turned into wolves and the pack is growing daily. Come on down on Tuesday night and take 3 minutes and that leaves 4 more meetings for you to lay out your 15 minutes. The first amendment still stands backed by all the subsequent ones.

  46. #48 by truthseeker on May 11, 2012

    camp x ray

  47. #49 by The Fullerton Harpoon on May 11, 2012

    The Wheels of Justice start turning in earnest on June 5th.

  48. #50 by One for the books on May 11, 2012

    Let us not forget the Slide Bar and what they have contributed to the current state of affairs in the City of Fullerton!

  49. #51 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    That is the hardest part of all.

  50. #52 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    And doing nothing results in the mentally ill being undertreated, or not treated at all.

  51. #53 by We Are All One on May 11, 2012

    Tracey :
    Uh oh.
    http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-353715-fullerton-speed.html

    The amount of ignorance in the comments on that article is disturbing. I am convinced only stupid people are breeding.

  52. #54 by change for justice on May 11, 2012

    This town is going to change and its the little guy who will take it back from the bullies and the bullies who protect the bullies. It ws said last night during the candidates forum that there will only be six months to the next election…thats o.k. this fuullerton culture is like sicknees that can’t wait any longer and needs to heave upits contents to get well.

  53. #55 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    We Are All One :

    Tracey :
    Uh oh.
    http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-353715-fullerton-speed.html

    The amount of ignorance in the comments on that article is disturbing. I am convinced only stupid people are breeding.

    I left a comment and it wasn’t posted. Not surprised.

  54. #56 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    I wonder if this is what Reagan said to justify his drastic cuts to mental health service which put many mentally ill persons onto the streets androids into a society where neither were equipped to deal with the other.

    Laura’s Law has criteria in place that must be met before it can be applied. It’s not as if one person or agency can simply declare one qualifies based on their mental illness alone. If this law had been in place, there’s a good chance Kelly would be alive today. And no, I’m not using Kelly’s murder to promote this law. I had never heard of it until after his death. Had the law been in place, there’s a good chance he would’ve been on his meds and functioning at an ok level.

    One of the biggest problems with the mentally ill is they’re ok while on their meds and then think they no longer need them and stop taking them. They don’t have the capability to recognize their downward slide. They’re paranoid and irrational. If they’d only resume their meds…but they’re of legal age and cannot be forced to do anything. Their families may love them but cannot help them nor can they confine them against their will. The only thing currently in place is suggesting a restraining order be taken out against; not out of fear or to get rid of them; but to help them. The idea is that once they violate the restraining order, they can be picked up with a good chance of getting a 5150 72-hour hold, increasing the chance of receiving more help including meds. It’s my understanding that this is the reason Kelly’s mother took a restraining order out on Kelly and not the bs reasons the haters like to use. This is a very roundabout and lengthy method of getting help. Laura’s Law makes a hell of a lot more sense, legally, ethically and humanely.

  55. #57 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    *where it says androids is suppose to simply be and…damn phone…I typo enough on my own!

  56. #58 by Fullerton Lover on May 11, 2012

    Dear Mr. Liberty,

    I have read the majority of the O.C. Register’s articles related to Kelly Thomas ever since the day he was murdered.

    The common theme of the articles were to assume that the police couldn’t have possibly been as rogue as was being alleged.

    We were further admonished to reserve or suspend our sense of right and wrong, and wait until all of the facts came out in the trial.

    Fast forward to the preliminary trial earlier this week where I sat in the same courtroom, and personally spoke with Lou during a court recess.

    I can honestly say that my perception of Lou was that he was a “joiner”, or someone that desperately wants to fit in with others, and that he will walk the walk and talk the talk that everyone else is spewing,whether he believes it or not, in order to get his friends to include him. Just my 2 cents.

  57. #59 by Ms. White/Not Betty on May 11, 2012

    “Wheels of Justice” should be in the full speed ahead mode as of right now. Immediate removal of McKinley, Jones, and Bankhead. Ankle bracelets might be appropriate as well. I can understand what Michael Liberty is saying in #17 and #22. Someone wrote about the OC Behavioral Health Department and Kelly’s death. If you want to know where many of the other “Kelly’s” are…go to the OC Central Jail. Law enforcement “takes care of” all the severely mentally ill in OC…not our BHD, which receives an enormous amount of tax payer money to do so.

  58. #60 by LASD OCSD Blah on May 11, 2012

    The Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department frequently took more than three months – and in one case almost two years – to investigate complaints from the public against its deputies, according to an independent monitor.

    In a report issued this week, Merrick Bobb, special counsel to the Board of Supervisors, said the department’s policy is to complete such investigations in 60 days, and submit the findings to a unit that tracks personnel complaints.

    That standard was met only about a third of the time in 2010.

    Bobb looked at more than 2,000 complaints in 2010, ranging from rudeness to excessive force and criminal conduct. He found it took an average of 101 days to finish investigations and submit the findings.

    “This is an unacceptable result,” Bobb said. “A lack of promptness can communicate to the public that the department is not concerned with responding to or vigorously investigating their complaints of deputy misconduct, and that there is a lack of accountability for such lapses.”

    The report found that slow responses “compromise the LASD’s risk management processes, potentially leaving managers in the dark about employees requiring intervention, and about problem areas.”

    Steve Whitmore, spokesman for Sheriff Lee Baca, conceded, “Yes, we do need to improve. We can always do better and we are going to do better.”

    Bobb said inadequate staffing due to budget cuts contributed to the delays. The LASD plans to

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    conduct quarterly audits to ensure the complaints are investigated promptly.
    In about 75 percent of the cases, investigators found the deputies acted reasonably and the department dismissed the complaints.

    In general, Bobb said he was “quite impressed” with the probes. In about 15 percent of the cases, though, he believed the investigations were not thorough enough. He noted the department did not adequately scrutinize some allegations of racial or other bias, and some improper searches, detentions and arrests.

    “We found several cases where more serious allegations were boiled down to the category of `discourtesy,”‘ Bobb said. “It is particularly inappropriate to categorize complaints of racial discrimination, force or neglect of duty as simple discourtesy, particularly in cases that may allege a violation of a complainant’s civil rights.”

    Bobb reported the LASD was making progress in reducing deputy abuse of inmates through such measures as installing cameras in the jails. He blamed some of Baca’s top commanders for failing to address the problem sooner.

    “Two things seem clear: the sheriff was not well-served by major executives and managers who both actively and passively permitted the jails to operate at variance with the sheriff’s core values, seemingly believing that the abusive culture there was intractable, at best, or not really a problem, at worst,” Bobb said.

  59. #61 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    SherBear :
    I wonder if this is what Reagan said to justify his drastic cuts to mental health service which put many mentally ill persons onto the streets androids into a society where neither were equipped to deal with the other.
    Laura’s Law has criteria in place that must be met before it can be applied. It’s not as if one person or agency can simply declare one qualifies based on their mental illness alone. If this law had been in place, there’s a good chance Kelly would be alive today. And no, I’m not using Kelly’s murder to promote this law. I had never heard of it until after his death. Had the law been in place, there’s a good chance he would’ve been on his meds and functioning at an ok level.
    One of the biggest problems with the mentally ill is they’re ok while on their meds and then think they no longer need them and stop taking them. They don’t have the capability to recognize their downward slide. They’re paranoid and irrational. If they’d only resume their meds…but they’re of legal age and cannot be forced to do anything. Their families may love them but cannot help them nor can they confine them against their will. The only thing currently in place is suggesting a restraining order be taken out against; not out of fear or to get rid of them; but to help them. The idea is that once they violate the restraining order, they can be picked up with a good chance of getting a 5150 72-hour hold, increasing the chance of receiving more help including meds. It’s my understanding that this is the reason Kelly’s mother took a restraining order out on Kelly and not the bs reasons the haters like to use. This is a very roundabout and lengthy method of getting help. Laura’s Law makes a hell of a lot more sense, legally, ethically and humanely.

    The big pharma meds along with the heavy metals in the food, air and water are the cause of mental illness and is in no way even remotely a solution. The fact is you are going to put your trust in more public funded bureaucrats. Why? Laura’s law STATES compulsory drugging AND judge ordered treatment. Additionally public funded mental health “experts” are constantly changing the definition of mentally ill to include people like us that simply question authority (look it up) That is not freedom, especially if you are mentally ill. Lastly, government is always “ensuring” that multiple steps and extreme care will be taken whenever they are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the people. For instance under the W Bush admin we had domestic spying of the NSA with no court approval but when the NSA was first proposed they reassured the public over and over that great care and diligence would be taken before using the spying capabilities, meanwhile that never happened and look where we are today.

    More laws aren’t the answer, YOU and your fellow citizens with the power of Liberty are the answer. We don’t want people to simply live or be alive we want them to be FREE as well.

    Laura’s law is a wolf in sheeps clothing and if you look into it you will see the words Judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging, neither is freedom on any scale.

    Just say no to government being the solution.

  60. #62 by peaches on May 11, 2012

    May 15, 2012 Council meeting(s) update

    4:00 p.m. Special Meeting re: Homelessness Task Force (Public Comments included)

    6:30 p.m. Closed and Regular Session -

    1. “Significant Exposure to Litigation” – 2 cases (no names) – closed session

    2. Proposed contract with law firm specializing in “insurance contract issues” – reading between the lines, this could be construed to indicate there are some issues as to insurance coverage for certain “incidents” involving Fullerton – regular session

    3. Proposed towing agreement – split between Anaheim/Fullerton towing and To ‘n’ Mo towing – regular session

  61. #63 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Why are you equating not endorsing a terrible idea (judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging) with “doing nothing”?

    Why not lobby city council to get rid of the permits to feed or house the homeless? Why not lobby the city council to cut funding for the PD and build a shelter with volunteer health services?

    Get rid of bad laws to provide incentive to the citizenry. Hold a city wide contest to come up with the best idea that does not include more laws. There are all sorts of things we can do that doesn’t include Judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging. Who trusts big pharma these days anyway?

  62. #64 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    One of the biggest problems with the mentally ill is they’re ok while on their meds and then think they no longer need them and stop taking them. They don’t have the capability to recognize their downward slide. They’re paranoid and irrational. If they’d only resume their meds…

    I know you mean well but we really have to think this through. Are alternative therapies explored under state treatment such as naturopathy? NO. Is there ample evidence that there are natural solutions to mental health disorders? YES. Why are those methods never talked about or tried? Because it doesn’t benefit big pharma that’s why. If a mentally ill person doesn’t like the way the drugs make them feel but their family thinks it helps should the mentally ill person be forced to intake the drug? Why not try other options? No other options are offered.

  63. #65 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    “Judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging”

    I didn’t say any of that. I only said that doing nothing results in jails being the de facto mental health facility.

    Most of these people should NOT be languishing in jail being subject to other inmates’ violence and the brutal treatment of the jailers. That’s cruel.

    Kelly needed help, and getting rid of him or killing him is not what we do in a civilized country. .

    “Hold a city wide contest to come up with the best idea that does not include more laws. ”

    Are you interested in something like that? We need laws, just some better ones.

    “volunteer health services?”

    And who will volunteer? Mental health services require education and training, which = $$$.

    Really, who will volunteer?

  64. #66 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    Michael,

    Can you give me your definition of “mentally ill”? Also, do you have “mentally ill” family members?

  65. #67 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    I don’t define mentally ill. One persons mentally ill is anothers normal. As long as the person in question is not a threat to themselves or others then I would say the person is not mentally ill. I can tell you that I did have a mentally ill friend in my early twenties who wasn’t mentally ill but his family and doctors kept saying he was and they put him on meds and he killed himself. Does judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging really sound like the right solution to anyone?

  66. #68 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Why is there a towing agreement anyway? It should be up to the person calling to select the towing company, that will lead to the cheapest price for the taxpayer.

  67. #69 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    Again, Laura’s Law has criteria in place that must be met before it can be applied. It makes no difference who declares a person mentally ill or even what that illness is. The law can be applied only upon once the criteria in place is met.

    We can debate all day the causes of mental illness it’s moot because we’re discussing the results and effects of it. I agree more alternatives would be great but everything can be misused and abused. Volunteers would be great but are few and far between. In a perfect world…but we don’t live in a perfect world. Laura’s Law may not be the perfect answer but it will help until people like you can initiate better alternatives.

  68. #70 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    But Michael, you stated the following:

    One of the biggest problems with the mentally ill is they’re ok while on their meds and then think they no longer need them and stop taking them. They don’t have the capability to recognize their downward slide. They’re paranoid and irrational. If they’d only resume their meds…

    You seem to think anyone with a mental illness should be lumped into one large category. They are not all paranoid and irrational and not all mentally ill individuals will ever require medication.

    There are so many types of mental illness that vary from very mild to very severe. No case presents identical to any other and any doctor who tries to treat based on that should have his licensed pulled.

    I understand what your concerns are about forced drugging. I too have them.

    I think a point trying to be made here is that Laura’s law could be a solution to some and I welcome it. Reagan did SCREW so many families by all but eliminating any type of care or resources for families to turn to.

  69. #71 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    You cannot assume no one will volunteer until no one does and people WILL seeing as how the kelly case is world famous now. Mental health services requires education and training. WHO requires this? ah and now we see why there isn’t more services available, because people are required to do things BEFORE giving services. This is why care is monopolized by the state and sucks the taxpayer dry. They cause the crisis and then offer the solution.

    We need better laws!! No we have too many laws as it is and I don’t trust the cops to enforce the ones we have. Less laws equal more service.

  70. #72 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    That was a quote I used from she bear I don’t believe the big pharma meds help MOST people

  71. #73 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Laura’s law is a wolf in sheeps clothing as it states Judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging and is promoted by the LA TIMES establishment media. When they like something you can rest assured its not good for the people.

  72. #74 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Once you give the state the power for judge ordered treatment and compulsory drugging no one is safe and tyranny is right around the corner.

    LAURA’S LAW IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!

  73. #75 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    #68 I was using a she bear quote to reply to my actual post was right below that quote

  74. #76 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    Michael, I get what you’re saying. Truly, I do. Big pharmaceutical companies have too much say in our health care. I’m also pro natural remedies and go there first before resorting to meds. However, there are conditions that require specific drugs ie when the brain is misfiring due to physical and/or chemical imbalances. If you had cancer, would you refuse toxic chemo and opt for more holistic remedies? Some illnesses, including mental illnesses, require medication. Period.

  75. #77 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    The replies are not landing correctly and are becoming confusing. Bear with us, those that are following…

    Michael, please google Laura’ Law. You mentioned something about ones who harm themselves or others…this is what Laura’s Law pertains to. It does not give allowances to force meds on anyone just because someone says they’re mentally ill.

  76. #78 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    Tracey, yes, he was quoting me. To clarify, I wasn’t referring to all forms of mental illnesses but more specifically to ones such as schizophrenia.

  77. #79 by nipsey on May 11, 2012

    Yeah OK have fun.

  78. #80 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura's_Law

    it states compulsory treatment and forced drugging but that it’s a good thing. Ask yourselves why the LA Times, the same publication that pushes more war, more bailouts and more patriot act is saying Laura’s law is good or necessary.

    Why aren’t they promoting other solutions as well? The wiki is a veritable who’s who of big government special interests.

    Why are we turning to government solutions when they can’t even spend the money we currently give them correctly?

  79. #81 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    Debate over bill’s efficacy and propriety

    [edit]Supporters
    Passage of the bill was supported by organizations such as the California Treatment Advocacy Coalition (an affiliate of the Treatment Advocacy Center), the California Psychiatric Association, the Police Chiefs Association, Mental Illness Policy Org. and the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI). In an editorial endorsement of the law, the Los Angeles Times touted then-Governor Gray Davis’s support, while limiting its comments on opponents to mentioning that the Citizens Commission on Human Rights which opposes virtually all psychiatric treatments, sponsored a rally at the Capitol against Laura’s law.[13] The San Francisco Chronicle[14][15][16][17][18][19] and The San Francisco Examiner[20] have published positive articles on the topic. The Los Angeles Times won a Pulitzer Prize, in part for its coverage of Laura’s Law.[21]
    [edit]Opposition
    MindFreedom International and the California Network of Mental Health Clients (CNMHC), along with allies in the psychiatric survivors movement, also fought the measure and its earlier versions, accusing such legislation as a regressive and reprehensible scheme to enforce coerced drug treatment regimens against the will of patients. The Church of Scientology and the Citizens Commission on Human Rights have also gained attention as an opponent of the new law.[22][23][dead link]
    Outpatient commitment opponents make several varied arguments. Some dispute the positive effects of compulsory treatment, questioning the methodology of studies that show effectiveness. Others highlight negative effects of treatment. Still others point to disparities in the way these laws are applied. The psychiatric survivors movement opposes compulsory treatment on the basis that the ordered drugs often have serious or unpleasant side-effects such as anhedonia, tardive dyskinesia, neuroleptic malignant syndrome, excessive weight gain leading to diabetes, addiction, sexual side effects, and increased risk of suicide.

    Government should never be allowed this kind of power.

  80. #82 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    Thank you SherBear for clarifying.

    I think one thing we can all agree on is this is a very sensitive issue that touches the lives of so many and I think we are all sensing the magnitude of the emotional roller-coaster we have been on.

    I can’t even imagine what the Thomas family has to endure. I pray they are given the strength to continue in their fight for justice for Kelly.

  81. #83 by Jane H on May 11, 2012

    I can tell you from experience that a) volunteers would be few and far between and b) it does take education and training to run a mental health facility.

    I can’t argue about the quality of care because then we debate forever. A lot needs to be done in all arenas.

  82. #84 by Tracey on May 11, 2012

    Hi Michael,

    I know this is only my opinion but this is my take on it. Wiki lists the Background info on laura’s Law as the following:

    BackgroundLaura Wilcox, a 19-year old sophomore from Haverford College, was working at Nevada County’s public mental health clinic during her winter break from college. On January 10, 2001, she and two other people were shot to death by Scott Harlan Thorpe, a 41-year old American citizen who resisted his family’s attempt to force psychiatric treatment.[3][4] Thorpe was found incompetent to stand trial and was sent to Atascadero State Hospital and was later transferred to California’s Napa State Hospital. After the incident Laura’s parents chose to advocate for forced treatment of individuals considered to have mental illness.

    I’m pretty sure that Laura’s Law is intended for it to apply to those who pose a very real danger to themselves and/or others.

    A person who has Schizophrenia and is in the midst of a psychotic episode can’t think clearly or make sound judgements for themselves. If Scott Thorpe above had been my sibling, I would much rather him having been forced to take meds and not kill Laura Wilcox. Two families lost so much when it could have possibly have been prevented.

  83. #85 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    I read the background info. The issue is who will decide who is a threat or who isn’t? who should be forcibly drugged and who shouldn’t be? Let me guess the “experts” yeah we’ve heard that before. The experts who said the patriot act was constitutional and safe, the experts who said there were WMD’s, by and large the experts work for government and special interests who serve government and they have no incentive to cure people otherwise they would be out of a job.

    Whenever something bad happens the establishment immediately jumps in to say ” We need more government to improve the situation, we need better laws” Government is currently failing at all levels why would I trust them to implement Laura’s law fairly?

  84. #86 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    After the incident Laura’s parents chose to advocate for forced treatment of individuals considered to have mental illness.

    Should read: After the incident Laura’s parents were coerced and guilted by local government officials into advocating for forced treatment.

  85. #87 by Michael Liberty on May 11, 2012

    I can’t believe people are advocating forced treatment as a response to a deadly force incident.

    You can’t make this stuff up folks!!

  86. #88 by SherBear on May 11, 2012

    Again, you fail to acknowledge the fact that this law is applied only upon specific criteria is met. I can only conclude that you choose to pick and choose what you take from things to promote your own views. This is also known as spinning things to which any response is a waste of time.

  87. #89 by ISPY on May 11, 2012

    Chaffe’s wife will tell him what to do and where!. Shame

  88. #90 by jerry on May 11, 2012

    Commentary here about pat is wasted. Pat Pension is very wealthy as a result of dumb voters.

  89. #91 by Fullerton Lover on May 11, 2012

    jerry :
    Commentary here about pat is wasted. Pat Pension is very wealthy as a result of dumb voters.

    Ask former Orange County Sheriff Mike Carona whether he

    would rather be collecting his $200,000 pension in prison in

    Colorado or here in Orange County?

    My money’s on the OC.

  90. #92 by Concerned Californian on May 11, 2012

    Don’t forget that him and his goons fled L.A. county riots, jumpe ship, to practice there trade in Fullerton after they trashed the former landscape with their bull shit.

  91. #93 by Concerned Californian on May 11, 2012

    Plain Glazed, right on the money, that crossed my mind too!

  92. #94 by Concerned Californian on May 11, 2012

    Conviction+recall+disbandment+civil lawsuit+federal lawsuit=More going to prison for breeding a polite form of corruption, that ends in killing citizens on the streets of fullerton.

  93. #95 by Concerned Californian on May 11, 2012

    Protectionism is a perfect way to con, trick, manipulate, extort, fleece, force, beat, and kill people into oppression.

  94. #96 by Anonymous on May 11, 2012

    Glad you brought that up. Does that mean because he is officially in another state, he collects his pension tax free? In another comment section I read…California’s retired public employees all move to these states (states with low or no state tax?). Ca. exempts retired public employees from having to pay a penny in state income tax on their pension, even though it was earned in Ca. However while Californians who retire on pensions earned in the private sector in Ca. and move out of state must pay full income tax.

  95. #97 by Katt on May 12, 2012

    Lauraa law is NOT the answer!! Crazy to give the very people who work alot with police and courts the authority to order drug treatment. Plus, do u kno the side effects from these drugs? Do they even truly work? Is it more of a hormonal problem out of whack? Diet? Or any other problem? They can then start ordering all of us on drugs ! The stupidity of drones is boggling sometimes…

  96. #98 by van get it da artiste on May 12, 2012

    When Pat McKinley began to serve our community as police chief, Fullerton’s police force’s mission to serve and protect the public ended.
    McKinley’s sixteen years as Fullerton’s police chief changed our police department into a bedroom city, commando force that refused to uphold the laws of the land. Under McKinley’s policing philosophy and leadership, Fullerton police officers believed systematic civil rights abuses were needed to protect them from personal harm.
    In the beginning, our police force protected the civil rights of our community. Fullerton Police Chief McKinley changed this to hunting season on the good people of Fullerton. And this change ended the life of Kelly Thomas.
    McKinley correctly says “Nothing is the same at the end as it is in the beginning,”.

  97. #99 by van get it da artiste on May 12, 2012

    ad hoc committees anyone?

  98. #100 by Anonymous on May 12, 2012

    I still don’t see how Kelly’s mental illness played a part in this. He was quite lucid and non-violent when they illegally detained him then proceeded to methodically and calmly beat him to death.

    No amount of “training” or “outreach” on how to deal with the mentally ill would have prevented what happened that night. In fact it wasn’t Kelly who was mentally ill, it was the officers.

  99. #101 by Concerned Californian on May 12, 2012

    http://peopleproject.wordpress.com/legal/socal-aclu-sues-laguna-beach-city-%E2%80%9Cno-sleeping%E2%80%9D-ordinance-unconstitutional-discriminatory/

    “Mark Rosenbaum: One homeless woman was interrogated by the police. She was directed to extinguish her cigarette. She did that. She was then arrested for littering and told that she had to pay a $366 fine or post a bond of $366, obviously way out of her means.”

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