Fullerton City Council Fullerton City Council Candidates The Culture of Corruption

Who is going to fix the Fullerton Police Department?

And how are they going to do it?

There are a lot of things wrong in Fullerton and a lot of issues at stake in this race.  But one looms over them all.

What are we going to do about our assault-happy cops?

The Kelly Thomas murder was just the culmination of an escalating pattern of brutality and sadistic violence committed by our city enforcers of the law.  This is not exaggeration or casting aspersion as has been documented on this blog with precision and accuracy.  These are not all official facts ; they are all well-documented facts.

Unfortunately here is how the system works.  When a cop decides that for the fun of it he’s going to slam your head into a concrete wall or into the pavement with all his force and then arrest you for Resisting Arrest, you can file a form about it.  That form gets “investigated.”  The results of the investigation are minimal, the officer is usually exonerated, or the complaint is closed without comment.  The record of the cop who did it is unavailable for review by anybody but the Chief or an attorney who needs this information in a court of law.   What we know for a fact this means is that any random police officer can build up a record of brutalizing and seriously injuring random citizens for any reason with virtual impunity.

Also, there is the “respect” thing.  Numerous anecdotes confirm that pre-Kelly Thomas days, giving a Fullerton police officer a little bit of lip meant you were giving up your civil right not to be battered into a bloody pulp and thrown in a cell for good measure.   Because of course people who would do something like that to their fellow human beings because they feel disrespected are so deserving of our respect.  Or something like that.

That’s the FPD.

What I want to know from our fearless candidates is: what are you  going to do about this?  And how are you going to do it?

132 thoughts on “Who is going to fix the Fullerton Police Department?

  1. Wow, what timing on this post!!!

    Just got a facebook message from a regular speaker at the council meetings who has been getting their fair share of ‘rear-ending’ and stonewalling by FPD…

    This person, (won’t say him/her) has simply been following up on a report/complaint and was told ‘we can’t help you unless you speak proper English. This victim is of Latin decent.

    In fact, this person has been pleading with the mayor and ALL council members for help.

    This person also doesn’t have what they need for justice…Big Money!

    Apparently FPD, like any other LE agency can do whatever they want…POWER!!!

    1. He/she should take someone with him/her who looks like he/she doesn’t speak English well and listen to hear what the complainant is told. If California has the “recording” law that allows recordings when one person knows of it, then discreetly record it.

      Documentation, documentation, documentation.

    2. You know, there is such a thing as “a lawyer.” Some of us will go with someone in that sort of situation for free.

      1. In this case, the victim has already gone through a couple of lawyers who were inexpensive and inneffective obviously.

        The other party, the Cop, has spent $100k on their lawyer and he’s a sleazebag.

        Managed to change judges to get a rogue, one-sided judge; in other works, a Copsucking judge.

        Good luck finding a free liar, I mean, lawyer these days.

        1. Are you talking about the HBPD thing discussed below or the situation in comment #1?

          This person, (won’t say him/her) has simply been following up on a report/complaint and was told ‘we can’t help you unless you speak proper English. This victim is of Latin decent.

          If it’s really a purported language problem, I don’t think that there a shortage of lawyers who would help make sure that the complaint was filed correctly. However, my estimate may be biased based on how often I get roped into something like that.

  2. Amen! And using the term “transparency” is not enough. We female citizens need answers that will insure our safety from evil like Rincon. And our families need reassurance that our kin aren’t going to end up DOA at a hospital for officers’ PTSD.

  3. Interesting comment La Roo about the officers’ PTSD.

    I’ve been wondering if that will end up being Cicinelli’s excuse during the criminal trial.

    If so, I hope it works and we get to see McKinley behind bars in Club Fed.

    1. amen to that, McKinley and his cronies are as guilty as Ramos and Cicinelli because they had seen the precedent of brutalizing the public with the tacit or not tacit consent of its leadership. If the city of fullerton was paying hefty settlements to victims of FPD’s abuse of them, no one can say our town’s civic leaders, police chief, city manager and politically connected others were ignorant of these events.

    2. Even a person who didn’t actually do the hands on deed, and allowed it to happen or incited it, still gets in trouble legally.

      Dirty deeds-done dirt cheap (isnt that a song?)

  4. and who are the persons in political power and places who protected and kept secret the FPD’s ugly history of brutalizing the good people of Fullerton?

  5. The problem with this motto of the Tenessee Bureau of Investigation is “The guilty shall not escape, nor the innocent suffer”
    is FPD thinks their people are the innocent and the everyday citizen is always the guilty.

  6. Its time for a citizens review panel. We also need to end the culture of silence by holding every cop with knowledge guilty of being complicit.

    If we want to see real change we need to be change agents! Heroes like Tony and Travis are not common and unless we hold them up we might lose them. Tony and Travis thank you for what you do and for getting the town I live in back in the hands of the people!

    That freaking parking structure is retarded! Did Dick think Fullerton was becoming Disneyland? Dick you’re going to need a whole lot of strip clubs and bars to fill that monstrosity! $40 million we’ll never get back!

    1. Citizen review panel – GREAT IDEA!

      A REAL review panel made up of normal citizens.

      Not another lapdog agency like the Office of Independent Review.

      The CITIZEN review panel should hold open public monthly meetings allowing Fullerton residents and visitors to voice complaints about their run-ins with FPD. Bring it right out in the open.

      1. I suggested months ago a citizens review panel with teeth, and the idea was poo-pooed. I’m really glad that other people are now suggesting it. It’s something we desperately need, not only in Fullerton, but in all of Orange Co., if not in all of the US. One large set of teeth would be that the panel would be access to personel records to see what each individual cop has been up to in the past every time he/she comes before the panel.

    2. “Heroes like Tony and Travis are not common and unless we hold them up we might lose them.” and may I add the word true before heroes and to define the statement. While government toadies use our tax dollars to fund their awards cermonies , true heroes are those who demand the truth from their government, who refuse to be intimidated, who will stand for those who wont or can’t and demand honesty and justice from those who mock our virtures, ethics and morals with their comments and actions towards us. Tony, Travis can’t stand alone indefinitely and we can’t stand up to injustice without them. We need to hold Tony and Travis up with our unwavering support

  7. The state of Oregon put “Publicy Owned” on everything. Uniforms, cop cars, and other equipment. It’s high time we start putting that on everything the public owns here as remind these “public servants” who they work for!

  8. Any candidate who wants a council seat to make friends in city government or to build a political career doesn’t belong there. You don’t need more of the same. You need people who are happy with serving 4 years – cleaning up the city – and then getting out. You need people are are willing to call city government leaders out in public – by name – no matter if it’s the City Manager, the Chief of Police (or any or his cronies) or the City Attorney. F diplomacy. Diplomacy is what got you into the mess you’re in today. You need people who are blunt, painfully honest and who take action.

    The citizens of Fullerton should DEMAND that each candidate complete a WRITTEN pledge of what he or she plans to do in the first three months on the job, in the first six months on the job and in the first year on the job to restore city government back to order. Talk is cheap. Politicians lie to get elected all the time. Never listen to what they say – watch what they do.

    You don’t need diplomats – you need fighters.

    Good luck.

  9. Nope, coppers get to hide their human asses under a cloak of impunity for everything, not just simple mistakes -that’s the problem, they slide by because they can and no one says or does anything, not anymore-be very afraid Patrick…

    Normal people are in jail or are fired everyday paying for their one time consequence
    for their “human error”- not you Nazi’s.

  10. today “forced virginity tests” by the Army were dismissed in Egyptian court. A general was quoted as saying it was OK “because those women weren’t like our women”. must be a world wide phenom.

  11. Anonymous 007 :
    Wow, what timing on this post!!!
    Just got a facebook message from a regular speaker at the council meetings who has been getting their fair share of ‘rear-ending’ and stonewalling by FPD…
    This person, (won’t say him/her) has simply been following up on a report/complaint and was told ‘we can’t help you unless you speak proper English. This victim is of Latin decent.
    In fact, this person has been pleading with the mayor and ALL council members for help.
    This person also doesn’t have what they need for justice…Big Money!
    Apparently FPD, like any other LE agency can do whatever they want…POWER!!!

    http://www.ocweekly.com/2012-03-08/news/moxley-confidential-shannon-james-roberts-huntington-beach-police/

    …sounds familiar huh?

    1. THank you for that article Fullerton Lover.

      Although this HBPD episode is more brazen than what I posted earlier regardng FPD, it emphasized my point on how the common folk can’t get justice unless they strike a lucky Lottery win.

        1. From the article – “Preciado’s wife, Yessenia Preciado, told the court Wednesday that she did not want to testify against the man who, she said, repeatedly beat and choked her, bit her on her face and threatened to kill her.”

          I truly hope she has a very strong victim’s advocate on her side; while testifying may be frightening, not testifying is more so. Sounds like the current judge in this case is a good one.

      1. I think the Occupiers need to think twice before they attempt to occupy HB!!!

        Plenty of Rogue Cops their for decades…(insert smiley)

        1. Too late. And evidently we’ve been moved from across from a high school inconveniently close to City Hall (whoops!) to a nice spot at PCH and Beach for now. Great place to wave at cars. So far the police have been fine. The Mayor seems to have wanted a grand, reputation-making, confrontation with us, but the police were a little brighter than that.

  12. What if city councilpeople had access to police officer personnel files? Or if a citizen review board appointed by the council did? Is that legally possible?

  13. TheFullertonWatcher :
    If we want to see real change we need to be change agents! Heroes like Tony and Travis are not common and unless we hold them up we might lose them. Tony and Travis thank you for what you do and for getting the town I live in back in the hands of the people!
    !

    Yes. Most definitely

  14. Fullerton PD should adopt the policy of OC Sheriffs and Anaheim PD. That is to shoot instead of beat or strike. It’s harder to second quess a split second decision to shot than beat. Officers in Fullerton should know the OC DA has never filed criminal charges for excessive force against an on duty officer discharging his weapon. This should reduce the liability of the city of Fullerton in the future.

  15. Our new council should form a police commission with some power to review all aspects of the PD, including personel issues. I’m sure Bruce and Travis would be great to lead this charge and I wonder how the CA will act when tasked with creating a way around all the union “barricades.”

  16. Good post. Fullerton is way past the point of equivocation. FPD is corrupt and there’s no denying it. Change will come with acknowledgment. It’s a cliche but true: the first step to recovery is admitting the problem.

    The Three Bald Tires and Acting Chief Hughes refuse to admit the problem. Hence an intervention is needed.

  17. The Desert Rat :
    Good post. Fullerton is way past the point of equivocation. FPD is corrupt and there’s no denying it. Change will come with acknowledgment. It’s a cliche but true: the first step to recovery is admitting the problem.
    The Three Bald Tires and Acting Chief Hughes refuse to admit the problem. Hence an intervention is needed.

    On the Bright Side,

    Even they dont admit their Problems, There is one Federal Judge that is openly pissed at FPD.

    They no longer show open BRAVADO.

    Anything ever happens to anybody in Fullerton, at least 5 Network News Vans will be on scene superfast. They say near Fullerton not Anaheim or 27 miles from Los Angeles.

    There is a new State University Police Chief.

    Helicopter coverage is better. 2 CHP, 4 OC Fire, Chuck Street, Anaheim Police, Network Media, OC Sheriff, at Fullerton Airport. The coverage by Newscopters of the Buena Park hostage situation was incredible.

    It was good to see the FBI locally. something tells me they are nearby 🙂

    They have lost financially.

    “Reality Is, FFFF” lost 90% of his previous MOJO 🙂

    What is the mission of good and evil?

    “The mission of the good forces is to establish an order across all the regions of the universe based on the sattva component. On the other hand, evil forces strive to establish a demonic kingdom based on the raja and tama components. This demonic kingdom is a kind of kingdom that is most conducive for demonic forces to fulfil their desires. These desires have a wide range, right from indulging excessively in sensual pleasures and the inappropriate use of power, to troubling seekers of God, to wiping out spiritual practice for God-realisation.”

    “The first known use of might makes right in the English language was in 1846 by the American pacifist and abolitionist Adin Ballou (1803–1890), who wrote “But now, instead of discussion and argument, brute force rises up to the rescue of discomfited error, and crushes truth and right into the dust. ‘Might makes right,’ and hoary folly totters on in her mad career escorted by armies and navies.”

    “The phrase in reverse is echoed in Abraham Lincoln’s words in his February 26, 1860, Cooper Union Address: “Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it” – in his attempt to defend a policy of neutral engagement with those who practice slavery, perhaps to appear more nationally oriented and religiously convicted in hopes of winning the presidential election (which he did).”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

  18. McCone :
    Fullerton PD should adopt the policy of OC Sheriffs and Anaheim PD. That is to shoot instead of beat or strike. It’s harder to second quess a split second decision to shot than beat. Officers in Fullerton should know the OC DA has never filed criminal charges for excessive force against an on duty officer discharging his weapon. This should reduce the liability of the city of Fullerton in the future.

    WOW dude, that was a well thought out posting.

    I am coming to the conclusion quicker that I originally thought it takes 6 or more cops down your way to make a good set of testicles when the poop hits the fan.

    Second, it takes 3 Captains and a Chief to make a set of brains.

    In both cases above, YOU still get it wrong.

    And then it takes way to much money to unscrew what never should have happened to begin with.

    1. “it takes 6 or more cops down your way to make a good set of testicles when the poop hits the fan”

      Thanks for the laugh.

    2. Coming from a guy who shoot and killed a kid who was armed with a bicycle !!!’ Ok, that’s the way the hillbillies do it in the 909?

      1. The difference in this incident is ACU didn’t run for cover to his superiors who typically have the expertise in ‘spinning the truth’ and get

        He told it like it happened and based on that, even your limited version in #42, I find no wrong-doing on ACU’s part.

        End of story.

    1. More than a few WG!!!!

      Or it has a spin attached to it that most who aren’t paying attention will never speak up and question it.

      But I must say many agencies are paying attention to what is happening right here, and other places, being smart enough to avoid public outcry by giving it their best shot on transperancy in the first stages of an incident.

      1. Much like Buena Park PD Chief did in that police shooting at the bank.

        It’s clear from the video the bad guy shot first, so what happens there after is pretty clear.

        Only a few would cry about that. Their comments would fall on a majority of deaf ears, as it should be.

      2. Yes indeed, in fact I saw your post the other day which mentioned more and more captains stepping up and complaining about internal misdeeds, etc.

        Good sign.

        1. Refering to LASD, yep some high ranking officials are going to bite the dust from what I hear.

          But the mid-level managers are not going to take the heat from above.

          The one Captain named Hansen is suppose to be a good guy who has told it like it is all his career, and is no bodies whipping post.

          It will be hard to attack his character and lable him “disgruntled” when he speaks from what I hear.

          If FPD was smart they would have paid attention to all these scandals and learned from them and avoided this debacle their now in.

          But “arrogance” overshadowed common sense. You can see that “arrogance” in many of the trolls commentary.

          Myself, I love it. Just adds to what many of you have been saying all along.

          Let the games continue!!!

    2. I remember in the early days of the Kelly Thomas postings, there were many angry comments from African Americans who said things like “this (beating-murder) has been happening in our communities for years and no one cared”
      I, myself, had no idea this was going on…Im not sure what communities they were speaking of but it wasn’t Fullerton but that is appalling, I don’t care what color or social status you are-and why is we were never aware of these?

        1. Why is it you need to be “paying attention” re murder/beatdowns-aren’t hospital records enough for investigation?

          1. Merijoe, you will find out that more than a few in the medical profession won’t rock the boat when it comes to diming off LE.

            Second, medical records are also confidential and cannot be released to just ANYONE.

            1. Im in the medical profession and have been for years, thats not true-never was. At least with the many I worked with in ER’s, and the ones I know now-they are very compassionate and takers of no crap. But then again, I was never unionized or associated with any that were.

              Medical record info is released all the time, normally its against HIPPA but-all you need is a signature and/or a judge to release in a trial.

          2. I remember when just about all of Long Beach was shut down after the Rodney King beating. Literally. Nothing was open. I was paying attention then, and I still am, but first we have to know about these incidents.

            As long as PDs can keep things quiet, most people just go about their merry way in blissful ignorance.

  19. AntiCorruptionUnit :Much like Buena Park PD Chief did in that police shooting at the bank.
    It’s clear from the video the bad guy shot first, so what happens there after is pretty clear.
    Only a few would cry about that. Their comments would fall on a majority of deaf ears, as it should be.

    I happened to get detoured from my drive home while this incident was unfolding. No chance of getting anywhere close to that Rosecrans/Beach intersection where the bank was, but I noticed 4 helecoptors hovering over the entire time.
    I did get to see the footage on the news when I got home.
    What a collective impressive maneuver by SWAT, FBI, Highway Patrol, etc. (as Lifesaving Service stated above). Extremely close tolerances between the hostage and suspect, all that shooting and the hostage wasn’t even cut. Awesome!!!

    Now if they just get those selected Knuckleheads to stop beating their wives, life would be good.

    1. Good question for sure. If your candidates running for office are afraid to ask the tuff questions of FPD, RED FLAG!!!!!!

  20. Age of Anonymity :Fearless Candidates? Would you mind weighing in?

    Now that was the most profound comment on this post so far…

    After all the last question was “What I want to know from our fearless candidates is: what are you going to do about this? And how are you going to do it?”

    So far just about everyone except the candidates have commented.

    Well?

      1. Merijoe, thanks for posing the question.

        Nobody can deny that FPD needs more oversight, not less. The police chief runs that department, as he should. But we as citizens, and the city council, in particular, cannot shirk the obligation to hold officers accountable to their job of protecting and serving the people of Fullerton. The way we do this is exactly through what is occurring now: concerned citizens are shining a light on the problem at city council meetings and protests; and through the great efforts of many on this blog, a successful recall petition has made it to the ballot. With that ballot, we can only hope that engaged council members will work with the FPD leadership, get to know the officers on the force, observe their training, review the department’s policies, and work to improve the relationship between the police force and the public.
        As angry as we all are about the incidents that have occurred and the abuses that have taken place, we also need to understand the reality of the situation. The reality is that there are some bad apples in the department, who need to be weeded out- but we cannot alienate the entire police force from the population that they are supposed to protect – this is key. We need to recognize that there are many good officers who do their jobs every day for the right reasons – people who care about the community and the rights of its citizens, people who take pride in wearing the uniform and taking risks to protect the public. Unfortunately, we don’t always see these people because they never make the news if they are doing the right thing – unless they happen to do something extraordinarily heroic on a given day.
        I have met Captain Hughes on several occasions, and I have spoken with him for several hours at protests, and at the Kelly Thomas memorial concert that was held several months ago, precisely about the issue of organizational culture and values of public service. My impression, based on these conversations, is that Captain Hughes has the right outlook, the right experience, and frame of mind to do his job and to do it well. Now, I can’t speak for his particular actions and decisions with regard to some of the cases that have made the news, because I do not have all of the details of each of those cases. But what I can say is that police misconduct is a problem from the standpoint of organizational culture (attitude and values) and the enforcement of discipline within the department (policies and punishments). My conversations with Captain Hughes tell me that he understands this as well as anyone. He is still new to the role of chief, and like any leader who steps into a role, it takes time to improve the culture and the policies of the organization. The department is not going to change overnight.
        If I were elected to city council, I would want to meet with the department leadership and hear first from their standpoint, what they are doing internally to enforce their culture of service and discipline. I would want to learn what their training plans look like, observe training firsthand and ask them questions; review tactics, techniques, and procedures for various scenarios such as crowd control, breaking up drunken fights, responding to reports of an armed suspect, escalation of force, etc. One thing I know is that you can’t come into an organization and expect to change it from the outside – you need the buy-in of the people within. Love them or not, the FPD is our police force, and we need to develop trust among all sides. Division and name-calling will get us nowhere; neither will burying our heads in the sand and doing nothing – which is the current council’s approach. We need to hold them accountable in a way that is honest, fair, and shows results.
        My experience in several army units tells me that there are very well-trained and disciplined units who hold themselves to a high professional standard of service, and there are sloppy units who are less trained, have a weaker culture of discipline and “doing the right thing,” – and these are the units where you have problems. No organization is perfect, and there are always going to be people who step over the line and break the rules – but the difference is that in good units, these people are ALWAYS held accountable at every level for their actions, and they are disciplined accordingly. When it comes to serious crimes such as stealing, sexual assault, battery, or murder – there can be NO TOLERANCE OR EXCUSES made. Everyone MUST know that these actions will not be tolerated, and that they will pay the price for perpetrating them. They must know that their brethren are not going to cover their back for breaking the rules, but report them for breaking the rules. They must know that the other officers care so much for the honor and reputation of their department, that they will not allow one of their own to disgrace it. They must know that. There can be no special treatment. One of the first things that all cadets memorize at West Point is Worth’s Battalion Orders:
        “But an officer on duty knows no one — to be partial is to dishonor both himself and the object of his ill-advised favor. What will be thought of him who exacts of his friends that which disgraces him? Look at him who winks at and overlooks offenses in one, which he causes to be punished in another, and contrast him with the inflexible soldier who does his duty faithfully, notwithstanding it occasionally wars with his private feelings. The conduct of one will be venerated and emulated, the other detested as a satire upon soldiership and honor.”
        -Brevet Major William Jenkins Worth

        1. Matt, As far as Hughes having it all under control, what about the FPOA and the Officers Bill of Rights> I truly believe the bill of rights needs to be changed. Cops have WAY TOO MUCH protection when they go rogue.

          1. Id put 3 M1 Abrams across from City Hall and put signs on them saying “FUCK WITH EM NOW!!” Kinda like a modern version of TIENEMEN SQUARE, CSUF Students and all. (I play video games) 🙁

          2. Erin, I understand your concerns with regard to the Public Safety Officers’ Bill of Rights – California Government Code sections 3300-3313. Having read it just now, most of it encompasses reasonable protections for officers who are being investigated (prior to being charged with a crime). Reasonable people can debate which protections are necessary, and which are excessive, but only the state legislature can change the law. It falls outside of the legal authority of the city council. The only officials who can change that law are state assembly members and state senators, notwithstanding a ruling from a judge on the application of the law in a particular case.

            http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=03001-04000&file=3300-3313

            1. Matt, thank you for responding to my concerns.If you are elected to a seat on city council, will you support my concerns?

              1. Thanks Erin,

                If elected I would address the concerns of all citizens, meaning that I would vote in the manner that I believe the majority of citizens would want me to vote; unless it would violate my conscience or principles. This means that if the majority of citizens favored one particular side of an issue, but I believed it to be morally wrong, then I would vote my conscience. Ultimately, I believe that people have to entrust their elected officials to use their judgment and make good decisions.

        2. Matt, what will you do when a concerned citizen brings info to the council on a Tuesday night at the podium? Do you plan on some active behavior such as speaking with the citizen immediately or not commenting, ever?
          .

          1. Certainly, I would meet with that citizen immediately following the council meeting, and I would take notes on the particulars of their issue, and follow-up with the police department to see how it was handled. I would comment on matters where I have knowledge of the facts from the individual involved as well as FPD. In the case of ongoing investigations, or where criminal charges may be filed, I would make comments that address the matter without showing prejudicial bias, or undue influence in the outcome. This is important because an elected official who opens their mouth about a case prior to the completion of the investigation or pending criminal proceeding, may end up sinking the matter, since their comments could get the case thrown out of court. This is the concept that our current council has been hiding behind, since they were instructed by the city attorney that they can’t say ANYTHING. That is the safest policy for them legally, because they could get into trouble by discussing an ongoing investigation or criminal proceeding. However, if they are smart enough to address the matter in general terms, without showing undue influence or bias in the outcome, then there is no reason that they cannot speak. For example, in reference to the Kelly Thomas incident, they definitely could have called the event a tragedy and expressed sympathy to his family, and promised an immediate and thorough investigation, without incriminating the officers, pending the outcome of the investigation. There is a lot the council could have said and done legally, without jeopardizing the matter. They just didn’t.

        3. Thanks for the detailed response. I would like to say good enough. But it’s not. Zero tolerance is right, but FPD brass aren’t going to enforce it.

        4. You all onesided. Especially when you say what this PEOPLE want to hear. Thats not going to help you. If this is part of your platform..Good luck.

          1. It’s odd to be saying this, as he’s running against a candidate that I favor, but — maybe ease off him a bit, eh?

  21. Fullerton has had fewer officer involved shootings than any other city its size in orange county in the past 10 years. One way to correct this would be to have the Fullerton officers only shoot/train 4 times a year like OCSD and Anaheim.

    Fullerton currently shoots/trains monthy. Less training = more shootings and would greatly reduce training/range costs.
    More officer involved shootings would also eliminate the problem with officers facing prosecution from the DA’s office.

    1. I see your point McCone…

      Shoot to Kill their victims so they can’t speak. That way it is a quicker death; better chance of no witnesses to contest the officers actions.

      And it’s easy to believe Fullerton PD has fewer officer involved shootings because they prefer to beat their victims violently, with fists to the face just as we see in that Officer Hampton cell phone video. You could see two different FPD cops taking multiple pot shots with his fists at the victims face.

      Yeah, nicely trained officers there!

      Damn McCone…Which PD have you provided this kind of Gestapo training for?

      Oh yeah, don’t forget to tell them to shoot 3 times in the chest area. Lesser chance of survival and key witness.

      1. Having known LEOs (friends and more than friends), and having asked about this, I was told by all of them that their gun training involved shooting at “center mass” (torso – e.g., chest area) to “stop” the “bad guy” because knee-capping wouldn’t do that. Don’t like it, but it seems to be a common training procedure.

    2. WTH is wrong with you? really? Police should shoot people to avoid prosecution? really? are you al-Quaeda by chance?

  22. Wrong guy. Wrong again, thought you guys know it all. Failure drill, two to the chest one to the head. That’s the way the OCSD rolls!!!

    1. Thanks for the clarification Mc C…

      I’m obviously NOT in law enforcement, but I’ve heard over the years that it’s not like Hollywood where you kindly shoot em in the leg and cuff em.

      At least I was accurate about the 3 shots to kill; gotta give me that.

      In fact, I’d bet that’s the way that OCSD nazi took out that marine in San Clemente?

  23. How to fix FPD? My two cents:

    1. Return hiring to standard PD civil service, not current “friend of the chief” method. City Council should seek input from PDs that work to determine what system to use. Job applicants and the PD should verify under penalty of perjury that the info is correct re the hiring.

    2. Establish whistleblower communication directly to the City Council, with safety and security for the whistleblower guaranteed. There are probably many good cops and city employees who are too scared to talk.

    3. City Council, our ELECTED reps, should review all new PD hires and all disciplinary procedures for one year and periodically after that. A citizens’ panel sometimes ends up as political appointees who take the heat off city councils. Hold their feet to the fire!

    1. That seems like a reasonable starting position for a reform proposal; I don’t think I’d even call this “feet to the fire.” A city’s deciding to give a person the means to kill someone and the opportunity to do it with immunity (and maybe impunity) is one of the gravest decisions that a city ever makes, so it should be treated with appropriate gravity. There may be good arguments against some aspects of it, but I’d want to hear them rather than just assuming that this isn’t desirable.

    2. I like your ideas and would like to add “random internal and external quality assurance audits” with reports of residents first-hand experience with police department, as well as direct Supervisor’s internal audit of following proper procedures which are signed off by two Supervisor’s, with the results of same initially published on a montly basis, with the goal of gradually going to to a quarterly rate when metrics warrant change.

      The results of these metrics would also be the basis for personnel evaluations, as well as helping determine merit increases, or decreases, for future department wide compensation packages by the City Council.

      1. You know, there is some great research out there in Sociology and Criminal Justice departments about what seems to work. I haven’t memorized it, but I think that it would be good to go with what has been shown to work. “What works” is probably not going to be what people come up with on the fly.

  24. Correct wrong guy, and the guy in RSMR yesterday but the shot to the head missed. That’s the down side of only shooting/training quarterly but the County benefits in cost savings with less range time.

  25. I definitely get your point McCone…

    Less shooting range training cost less and because of the lack of shooting training, cops are more inclined to shoot first and ask intelligent questions later; but wait, they can’t if their victim is dead, right?

    Then again if your dead you can’t reveal your side, herego no lawsuit.

    Something like that?

  26. Good point PJ.

    The cops in Fullerton are also way overpaid and have flush benifits. The best way to atract top quality candidates to Fullerton is to reduce the pay and benifits to considerably lower levels paid by neiboring cities and also require higher educational standards. Most Fullerton Officers have four year degrees, The city should only hire people with masters or PHD’s. There are a lot of unemployed people out there who would do the job for next to nothing.

  27. The city should hire people like Greg Seaborn as cops. When he tried to become a cop he could not pass the psychological examination or the physical agility test.

    1. I doubt it was the physical exam. Most likely it was the psychological testing he did not pass. One has to be a pretty twisted human to be a cop.

  28. Greg Sebourn holds Associate of Science Degrees in Administration of Justice from Fullerton College and Survey/Mapping Sciences from Santiago Canyon College.

    So you see when you can’t be hired as a cop, go play with maps. I heard that’s what Rincon is doing for work now.

    1. At least Greg had a back-up plan unlike Ramos and Cicinelli..

      Cicinelli: I just want to be a cop. Please McKinley, hire me. I really really want to be a cop.

      Ramos: I promise to make you real proud someday Chief.

  29. RANCHO SANTA MARGARITA – Orange County Sheriff’s officials on Sunday disclosed the name of the man a deputy shot Saturday as Dennis Mitchell Mueller.

    Sgt. Jason Park said Mueller is in stable condition.

    The shooting took place at 12:45 p.m. Saturday in front of Mueller’s home on Meadow Park Lane near Robinson Ranch Road.

    Park said a deputy spotted Mueller speeding on his motorcycle. The deputy lost sight of him, but the deputy knew where Mueller lived, and sought him out there.

    That’s when, Park said, “An unknown interaction occurred and the suspect was shot.”

    No weapon was found at the scene, Park said.

    Park would not say what caused the deputy to shoot or give out any other information, saying the District Attorney’s Office has not completed its investigation of the incident.

    “Anything at this point would be speculation,” Park said, “and it wouldn’t be appropriate to speculate.”

    It’s standard protocol for the District Attorney’s Office to look into officer-involved shootings. Such investigations typically take several weeks or months.

    District Attorney’s Office representatives could not be reached for comment Sunday afternoon.

    Register reporters Erika I. Ritchie and Frank Shyong contributed to this report.

  30. Rincon could be a cop. He’s never been convicted of a crime he has a Masters degree, he’s a wonderful dancer plus he speaks Spainish.

  31. In response to McCone’s #88 above:

    So you see when you can’t be hired as a cop, go play with maps. I heard that’s what Rincon is doing for work now.

    More than likely that perv is checking out girly mags and playing with himself…

  32. McCone :
    Good point PJ.
    The cops in Fullerton are also way overpaid and have flush benifits. The best way to atract top quality candidates to Fullerton is to reduce the pay and benifits to considerably lower levels paid by neiboring cities and also require higher educational standards. Most Fullerton Officers have four year degrees, The city should only hire people with masters or PHD’s. There are a lot of unemployed people out there who would do the job for next to nothing.

    McCone :
    Rincon could be a cop. He’s never been convicted of a crime he has a Masters degree, he’s a wonderful dancer plus he speaks Spainish.

    …Sarcasm is angers evil cousin.

  33. Matthew Rowe :
    an elected official who opens their mouth about a case prior to the completion of the investigation or pending criminal proceeding, may end up sinking the matter, since their comments could get the case thrown out of court.

    This is not even remotely true. I think you’re just making this up as you go.

    1. That’s pretty standard Mr. Donut- if a public official has any authority over the accused or the organization in which the accused serves; and, the official makes comments on the facts of the investigation or proceeding, before it is completed or resolved, those remarks can prejudice the outcome. Any good defense attorney would try to use those remarks to benefit their client. By all means, consult an attorney. I could give several references.

  34. While that’s true Matt, it also happens all the time, and usually without consequence. There are all sorts of theories about what police comments ought to bust up a case that end up being dismissed as harmless, just as there are all sorts or judicial errors that technically ought to disqualify a conviction that end up being dismissed as harmless error.

    You should get to know Doug Chaffee; I think that you two will have some interesting discussions, and hopefully eventually interesting and cordial debates.

    1. Thanks Greg- understood, and I agree. There is always a human component to these things that is unpredictable or not always consistent. Time, place, and context matter – and in each case people make decisions on how far to go with their comments, or how far to go in order to twist someone’s comments for the benefit of their client. Human nature is more art than science, for sure.
      In reference to Mr. Chaffee, I do not know him, but I would definitely like to meet him and talk. I have heard only good things about him from the people I have met, so that is a good sign.

      Best,
      Matt

      1. Matthew,
        I’ll say this as nicely and professionally and respectfully I can.

        You are a leader. There is no debating that fact. However, as you know leaders must know the geography which they are leading their troops over. They need to know weaponry. Take these two, geography and weaponry, and apply it to Fullerton. Considering the political and economical landscape, which weapons will you employ to overcome resistance from staff and the public? Will you tell all of the employees that they need to take bigger cuts? Will you fire the inept city manager? Will you read and know the city budget, its strengths and weaknesses?

        I’m not saying these to compel you to answer. You should not answer these just yet.

        You have a lot to learn about Fullerton and municipal goings on and I say that with pain in my heart because you are a true leader…but a blind leader.

        I think you will make a really great council person in 2 to 6 years if you do your homework.

        I respect you enough to tell you these things straight up, no sugar coating because I think you understand. For many in this small town with small minds, you came out of nowhere and gave many hope. Thanks.

        My friends and I look forward to learning more about you and your efforts to learn F-town.

        God Bless you and thank you for your service so that my family could be together in relative peace.

        1. You couldn’t have said it any better. I have read his posts and he is just too fresh. He doesn’t understand anything yet. Just the outside. He will be smacked in the head when he learns the inside and how things can actually be done, not how he thinks or wants them to be done. It’s a whole new cruel world.

        2. Louis, thank you for the kind words, and even the blunt assessment. Open and honest is what we should all expect of ourselves. I don’t purport to have all the solutions to the challenges of this city in my back pocket; and I am certainly a newcomer to local politics. What I do have is the willingness to listen and learn from concerned citizens like yourself, do my homework, and stand up for what’s right. When it comes to experience- I think that understanding laws and regulations, working with people and hearing their concerns, developing plans to achieve measurable and realistic objectives, and following up on what’s delivered is the same in the army, as it was in trying to start a business, as it was in working for an aviation start-up, as it is in working for a Fortune 100 corporation. I have the skills to do the job, but there is a lot of work ahead. I agree.

        3. I’m impressed with him here so far. I think that Doug Chaffee is prepared to step into this fray right now, but I think that if Matt runs a respectful and positive campaign, he’ll make a good impression on the city. If he ends up on a commission and does good work there, he may have a future. In the meantime, I look forward to there being at least one council campaign of the three that keeps a positive tone — unless the Registrar did make a mistake and we’re set for a Chaffee-Levinson race to replace McKinley after all.

  35. To the original post “Who is going to fix the Fullerton PD?”. It is a combination of the City Manager (You will have to get one who has balls and does not kiss ass – sorry Joe, you are gonna be gone); A police chief from outside of Fullerton who has been shown to be able to reform; and a city council/Mayor that demand measurable changes. If the changes demanded are not measurable they become hearsay. Then the Police Chief and City Manager are measured by the completion of objectives that are each measurable.
    Otherwise, its a coverup and nothing changed!

  36. Let’s start with a list of names… the names of each and every officer who has quit or retired since 2003. Include their rank when they left. I’m willing to bet some Bootleggers IPA that the list names 4 people who were in command. One of those is McKinley, another is Sellers. Who else? Hamilton… And who is the other retired captain from a few years back??? Come on…

    1. Why are you looking just in Fullerton. Fullerton is the lower middle of a salary survey. If you really want to get pissed off, check out Santa Ana, Irvine, Huntington Beach.

  37. Matt a blank CLEAN slate is the best kind. In my opinion the current administration’s slate is muddied and bloodied and for this reason they can’t even see what they are doing anymore. Thicken the hide and get ready for the ride and stay out in front Matt. It is impossible to keep a good man down. This City is ripe for change. It’s in the air.

  38. Lets face it, the cops involved were prehuman. In fact Ramos may be the missing link. Such people are still evolving and not fully human having no normal capability.

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