Going Into Labor, Part 2a – The Solution; There Ought To Be A Law

Identifying a problem is the first step on the path to fixing it. Sort of like a drunk needs to admit his addiction to booze.

In my last post I described the inherent dysfunction of allowing government workers to unionize, and in effect, place their own collective interests ahead of delivering the services they were hired to perform for their bosses – you and I.

What’s needed? First it’s imperative that all new agreements with public unions reflect parity with employment realities in the private sector. This includes paying fair shares in health care and pension contributions. Retirement age must be raised to eliminate early retirement and double dipping bureaucrats. What’s wrong with mandating the age the rest of us can collect Social Security?

Second, let’s remove bureaucrats from negotiating labor contracts and give the responsibility to experienced labor negotiators. Why not? The unions are doing it. This will remove squishy “administrators” bargaining with their “family” members, giving away the store, and often benefiting from the same benefits they confer upon their employees. The taxpayers are in dire need of independent, hard-nosed advocates at the bargaining table.

Third, remove automatic raises based on seniority or simply taking up space.

Fourth, end the ever escalating salary arms race for public employees.

Fifth, eliminate “management” unions. The very type of “professional” folk whose job it is to implement the will of the elected representatives are simply extensions of that authority. Management in the private sector is never unionized. Why should the overseers be represented? The fact is that lots of government managers are not unionized; none of them should be. The gift of huge benefits on managers including retirement at 50 or 55 has created an exodus of middle-aged middle and upper managers who often go to work for other agencies where they can start up a whole new pension!

Finally,  look at total compensation as a means of assessing taxpayer support for public employees. This includes health insurance premiums, pension subsidies, and salaries.

147 Replies to “Going Into Labor, Part 2a – The Solution; There Ought To Be A Law”

      1. An excellent insight. Thank you.

        Your thought reminded me of the reply which wonderful old S. Carolina Senator Jesse Helms used to give when asked what he thought of the viscious venom hatred and bile spewed out at him by the Communist big government crowd.

        Senator Helms would simply say: “I consider it a compliment” (i.e. it showed he was properly doing his job for America).

    1. I am all for people having the freedom to band together and use their collective power to obtain a better life. I value the freedom of association and non-association.

      (1) The freedom of “non-association” means union membership should be voluntary.

      The only controversy regarding unions to me is what they should be allowed and not allowed to do. What I object to is the special privileges given to unions by the government that are not available to other groups.

      When unions get higher wages for their members by RESTRICTING entry into an occupation, such higher wages are at the expense of other workers who find their employment opportunities reduced.

      (2) There should never be a requirement for one to belong to a union to apply for and be seriously considered for any employment.

      Public employees are paid by “the government” and the government is not required to make a profit. Additionally, today, the person negating with the labor unions are not paying the salary which means its “no skin off theri backs” which means there is no check on the amount of money labor unions can force the tax payers to pay for services.

      (3) Basically, public sector unions have the power to tax the people. Such needs to end.

      All the politician must do is simply force the taxpayer to pay more. And the government does take all money it receives from tax payers by force. Don’t pay your taxes and see if a government official does not eventually show up at your door with a gun.

      (4) Public sector Pay out of wack – pay needs to be tied with silimar private sector jobs – or let people bid for a public sector job

      Given the relationship between politicians and public employee unions, we should not be surprised that public employee wages and benefits often average 45 percent higher than their counterparts in the private sector. Often they receive pension and health care benefits making little or no contribution.

      Let qualified people bid for a job where they set their salary for a term of years.

      (3) Free Market system is better for all involved

      Just consider the on-going Chicago’s unionized public-school teachers strike. The money has continued to pour into Chicago’s failing public schools in recent years. Chicago teachers have the highest average salary of any city at $76,000 a year before benefits. The average family in the city only earns $47,000 a year. Yet the teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over four years at a time when most families are not getting any raises or are looking for work.

      EVERY Chicago public-school teacher on strike should be FIRED. These greedy ungrateful idiots should not be allowed to make such demands when there are plenty of qualified people willing to do their job for less. More important, that such people are so stupid to strike in the current economic environment with their salary clearly sends the signal they are too ignorant to teach kids.

      The Chicago public-school teacher’s are greedy to the point of Envy and are looking out for no one but themselves and paying them higher wages does nothing to improve the world as a whole. Restated, if everyone acted like Chicago school teachers, the entire system would collapse and no one would win as everyone would be demaning unrealistic wages.

      In contrst, when workers get higher wages through competition, (i.e. free market) with companies competing with one another for the best workers and workers competing with one another for the best jobs, SUCH HIGHER WAGES ARE AT NO ONE’S EXPENSE.

      Such higher wages can only come from higher productivity and capital investments which creates a better world for all involved.

      But greedy jerks like the FPD police and the Chicago public-school teachers simply want more at the expense of others. Paying such people more will not result in a better world for all involved, only their greedy selves.

      Basically the government has given public sector unions power to tax the people at will. Restated, public sector unions simply turn the private sector worker into slaves for the public sector employee.

      So the private sector employees need to either fight to break the public union’s power and retake their freedom or simply shut up and be good slaves so the public sector employer can demand a raise next year for more sea dos and summer homes or whatever they desire that year.

      1. Sadly voters don’t take the time to research who they send to represent them. People spend more time researching their wireless device purchase than who or what they vote for. This hopefully will change.

  1. You speak the truth about the middle-aged starting up a whole new career/pension. What do you think that does to a new college graduate looking for something other than a job at minimum wage…

  2. Fullerton Lover
    Sep 10 – 9:46 AM
    The wicked envy and hate. It is their way of admiring.

    Hoping a cocaine overdose will end it all one day and FFFF will be remembered as just a rich mans play thing.

          1. Not “nobody,” just not you and your pals. Condemning bigotry and violence are actually pretty popular. You should try it sometime!

            1. Step outside of your own vanity for a second. Even if you had friends, they would neither know nor care if you condemned some random comment on a blog.

              1. That’s a weird response. The point is not “my” condemning bigotry and violence. The point is “us” condemning bigotry and violence. I’m trying to influence FFFF to reject some of the crap that is usually tolerated here. It’s not vanity, it’s — I hate to use the word — “agitation.”

  3. Dear Mr. Sipowicz: Dreams are wonderful. They give our minds a place to play, have fun, wish for heaven on earth, rule the world, or even fly!

    If you got money bags to foot the bill to get a measure or measures on the Fullerton ballot, you’ve got a boatload of litagation to get through. You know the unions have got a lot of money tucked away to fight these very wet dreams of libertarians and in general government haters.

    As a start how ’bout a yes vote on Prop 32. Might be a good starting point. Sort of like firing a shot across the bow of the union ship.

    1. Hence the problem. The unions have gobs of money to share amongst themselves and you and I have what to counter this influence?

      1. You’ve got to fight union $$ with more than votes — you gotta have the buck to fight in court.

        THat’s just the way our system works.

      2. Unions have gobs of money compared to corporate interests (WHICH ARE ALMOST ALL EXEMPT UNDER THIS ACT)?

        Oh, FLover, I do not think that that is even remotely so. Not even remotely.

        1. Some truth there, yes. But what current avenue do voters have attempt to mitigate the unreasonable infleunce public employee & educator unions have on local and state politics?

          1. That’s a really good question. I’d say: elect fair leaders. That means (1) not people who are in the bag for the union, as were Jones, Bankhead, and McKinley, but also (2) people who are not out to destroy the union for ideological purposes, like Whitaker, Kiger, and (usually) Sebourn.

            Quirk-Silva was a good example of this. (And please stop making fun of her comment that homeless people wanted socks, which she said after talking to homless people and being told that — they wanted socks.) Chaffee is another. Flory (a previous opponent of Bankhead’s on council) is another, as is Jaramillo. Rands, while more critical, is also someone who is out to reform rather than destroy. Matt Rowe was in the same category.

            It’s not magic. What we need is moderation from people who believe in good government. FPOA would not get the same sort of munificent contract from Chaffee, Flory, and Jaramillo or Rands as it would from Jones, Bankhead, and Whitaker. But it would also be dealt with more fairly and constructively than it would get from Whitaker, Sebourn, and Kiger. That’s about it.

        2. How many corporate interests do we see lining up to oppose the influence of the Fullerton Firefighters, Police, and Municipal Employees here in Fullerton elections?

          Please submit the 460 or similar form as proof.

          Once you have submitted the evidence I’ve requested, I’ll submit the evidence that I possess regarding those unions I named and their financial influence.

          We’ll let the bloggers here decide who’s the winner.

          Winner stays on the blog.

          The loser leaves.

          Put up or shut up.

          1. Nice try, FLover. “Winner stays on the blog” — we both win!

            This is a general story about the labor movement; I responded to it as a general story. (Look at he expenditures in AD-69 to get a sense of the imbalance — and that’s BEFORE Prop 32 passes.) The comment to which you replied specifically suggested that people vote yes on Prop 32.

            Apparently, you intended your comment to address specifically the situation within the Fullerton City Council race. When it comes to that specific instance, I will concede that the pro-FFFF slate is not driven by corporate interests (except I suppose to the extent that Tony’s businesses may be incorporated, which I don’t know) but ideological entrepreneurship. (Well, I gues John & Ken do count as a corporate interest, but it won’t show up on a form.)

          2. Because corporations and unions are not human, both literally and figuratively, it’s pretty clear cut that the taxpaying residents interest are ignored and relegated to the bleachers, while the race to bankrupt us all that’s being run by corporations and union interests, is being run in full tilt front of us.

    2. True. That’s why I said if TBush doesn’t part with another $500k he may lose his people on the council quickly. Everything takes money. We learned that quickly in Fullerton. Without another wagon for TBush to jump on (Kelly) I think he will lose control quickly, unless he parts with a few million more.

  4. This is really no different than the way the mafia operated back in the 20’s/30’s. You extort and own the rule makers then watch the bucks roll in.

    The answer is to cap all public pensions @ $30,000 regardless of salary (just like social security is in the private sector) and make public employees work to the same age required to collect social security (67). Throw in an optional 401-k equivalent. Done.

    Force the public employees to work for the same benefits available to the private sector workers who actually finance all the public sector programs.

    Finished. Call it the “Equitable Employment Act”.

    1. Sounds good. It’s possible to all new hires after a certain implementation date. Problem is that you are now doing this to everyone’s kids including the lawmakers. They want their kids to make a fair and competitive wage. No college grads would ever go into the public sector ever again so then you get?

      1. Have you looked at your shoes, shirt, toothbrush,comb,car, phone, tv, nailclippers, computer, toaster, blender, fridge, heater, ac, watermelon, OJ, pot, pan, cup, glass…. on and on-What is a fair and competitive wage across the sea in Malaysia or China where kids breath aromatic and aliphatic hydrocarbons so the trinkets shine for us. Slave wages are what is on the horizon. Imagine protectionism only for public employee unions. Tariffs need to replace unions. Citizens need to replace consumers.

          1. Tariffs on stuff like solar panels, and underpriced bids on huge capital projects like building bridges that China is dumping way below cost would absolutely be a good start. China is systematically targeting high value, capital-intensive industries and throwing lots of cheap/free.subsidized financing at them to consistently undercut legitimate competitors the point that they are priced out of the market and go away. Then all that’s left is China.

            1. Treasonous trade deals have left us with a predatory economy and low wage service jobs. Our children’s future is bleak indeed unless tariffs replace unions and citizens replace consumers.

                1. What made the populace retarded? Was it the public school system, the chemicals in the food and water, the hormones in the vaccines, the clamping of the umbilical cord at birth, the mercury amalgams, the dope, the pills, the booze, the porn, the idiot box? What did it? -correct answer- all of the above and you are correct because a bunch of dumbed down consumers have abandoned their duties as citizens and exchanged their freedom for slavery.

      2. First off, most governement jobs don’t even require a college degree. In fact, you can be a $100,000 plus cop or firefighter with a bottom of the barrel GED. So who cares if governments workers don’t have college degrees? It’s not required for 80% of the jobs. The technical jobs that require them can be outsourced to college educated workers who don’t even get defined pensions. Straight SS and 401-k’s.

        Government workers today make more than private sector workers in comparable job skills. So government workers are overpaid. Your main benefit was supposed to be job security. Today you get higher salaries, better benefits PLUS the iron clad jobs security.

        Eventually when the economy tanks again you watch how fast the salaries and benefits for the CURRENT public workers get rolled back. Not just new hires.

        I have never witnessed a greedier and more selfish group of people that what we have on the government payrolls today.

    2. Maybe, be a bit more specific. Have cops and firemen work longer. What they call ‘miscellaneous’ employees have to work a lot longer for their retirement.

      1. damn straight! and they don’t get extra benefits if they die in the performance of their job assignment; knew a landscape maintenance worker for a local city who dropped dead while performing his job assignment – no extras, no scholarships for his children, no lifetime medical for his widow and/or minor children.

        1. Good luck. You will get no public support on that one. You are by in the minority on that belief as wih most beliefs by this blog.


  5. Actually, your proposals are more reasonable than I had expected. I wish that it were possible to debate such things in a cooler environment than we have here. I’d love to sponsor a cool and measured debate between you and someone from the unions on these topics and to see what the answers are (as well as your answers to the answers.)

    Offhand, I have no idea what the argument against your second and fifteh proposals would be and I’m not sure that we’d see much disagreement on the principle behind your first proposal (although maybe some disagreement on the facts regarding whether it’s actually applicable.)

    One argument I’d make is that just as we want there to be higher qualifications for cops than for security guards, which means being able to pay for it, we also want there to be higher qualifications for those who hold and administer public trusts than for those in private companies. We should be willing to pay for that too — but we should also be confident that we are getting what we pay for.

    Overall, this is a decent effort that could lead to productive discussion. (That praise is a signal for everyone here to attack you mercilessly, of course.)

  6. This post is fuckin lame….what happened to all the Flory-bashing posts? Those were more entertaining! Did TBush put the kibosh on mean-spirited, hateful posts until after the election?

  7. to hear one who comforts :
    You’ve got to fight union $$ with more than votes — you gotta have the buck to fight in court.
    THat’s just the way our system works.

    Chicken little will have his day. The sky will fall fall,,,,, eventually.
    When there is no mo money for the state to pay unfunded liabilities the coffers will implode and I think we all can agree it won’t be pretty. The “I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today” ideology won’t cut the mustard when the last worthless dollar leaves the printing press.

    1. He should have been wearing his “William Holden Drinking Helmet.” Before I party in Downtown Fullerton, I install a full cage on mine.

    1. 3 children left fatherless because of the liquor peddlers magnet for crime energized by their unbridled lust for profit engineered by our reprehensatives who handed out the ABC licenses like candy on Halloween.

        1. Yup, something bad happened and the flyer circulating around the bar asks folks to contact Detective Barry Coffman with any info. Of course, when Barry is done with his union work and organizing city council visits, being in charge of donuts, etc. he then has a real job to do. Lets see Barry, its now 9 days later. Got any leads? Any witnesses? Anything to show for your being the lead detective on the case?

  8. Going Into Labor, Part 1-The Problem: The epidural for pain relief has worn off and a hungry child is born.
    Going Into Labor, Part 2a- The Solution; There Ought To Be A Law: Moon Zappa’s dad/Frank Zappa, “We are a nation of laws BADLY written and randomly enforced.”

    1. Good idea-he should donate 25k or so to train the FPD on how not to “smash someones face to hell”, taser the chest, take home run swings at the tibia, frame up the innocents or screen check foreign students or act like porn stars in the back of the cruisers or how not to destroy the DAR while someone is dying in custody or how not to let drunk people drive home from the police department. Better yet I suggest we float a sin tax on all the liquor peddlers to pay for this.

  9. Unions are their own worst enemy, there is also an enormous toll on society and industry. (and OMG the victims of Public School Systems and the DMV) Even voters dont think STUPID and GREED works!

    The Union Monster led Administration, had a death grip on the Country but ridiculously, blew that in a historical manner.

    FFFF Trolls have their head up their…

    Is this the “Decline and fall of western civilization”? As California goes so does the country, As the US economy goes so goes the worlds.

  10. Fullerton isn’t stupid :
    Unions are their own worst enemy, there is also an enormous toll on society and industry. (and OMG the victims of Public School Systems and the DMV) Even voters dont think STUPID and GREED works!
    The Union Monster led Administration, had a death grip on the Country but ridiculously, blew that in a historical manner.
    FFFF Trolls have their head up their…
    Is this the “Decline and fall of western civilization”? As California goes so does the country, As the US economy goes so goes the worlds.

  11. Hey Joe,

    Sounds like you are jealous. Maybe instead of taking the burger flipping job you should have applied at your local city and got one of those great government jobs.

  12. Thanks…. I applaude the rest of you doing the same. My kid still holds my hand in public and says she is proud of me. I am a happy guy. Ole 🙂 probably does not believe that but it is true. I can look at myself in the morning and feel good. Hey ole 🙂 instead of being at the slime bar go wher parents take their kids…. ask and I will tell, you do not seem to know…. leave something for the next generation.

  13. You all sound like Jurgis in Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”, working every day to the bone. When money got tighter Jurgis said “I will work harder!”.
    I was raised with those work ethics, but gradually I saw that less people were like Jurgis and more like those who just go with the flow. The flow has been like the Food Stamp program. Originally designed to help those already receiving welfare benefits as a supplement since many states had low benefits. Now after 40 years, 41 million Americans are on food stamps, some are in their 3rd generation of receiving. Many on food stamps do not receive or are eligible for welfare, the rules changed while most of us were busy living our lives. Little changes made here and there that over time add up!
    I already told of my shocking experience at Social Security office. Arrived early, 80 people in line and I’m groanin I will be there all morning. When we go in, turns out only 5 including Tuco were there for Social Security “pension benefits”. We were sent to window 3. All the rest were there 75/80 for social security “disability”. Keep that in mind the next time politicians tell you the social security “Retirement” system is running out of money!

    1. Read the license plate frame. It is never too late to do the right thing-worst case scenario. This flick is kinda lame and low budget-but the concept is somewhat on target.

  14. Many voters don’t realize that at least 80% of those forced union dues and fair share fees go to campaign donations. I know this because mine did, without my consent, and only stopped when I sued.

    The only solution is to make membership and fair share dues VOLUNTARY. It’s all about the Benjamins. Jerry Brown signed into law the mandatory fee payments, and now he is presiding over the destruction of his state, thanks to that action.

    Ironic, eh?

  15. Geez, this blog has faded back to its pre-Kelly Thomas irrelevance. Same-same every day. What will tomorrow bring? The umpteenth Jan-Flory-is-a-liberal-witch post? Or maybe a complaint about faux brick veneer?

    1. Porky you won’t go golfing, or the Slimebar….Face it your blogged hooked….I am only on here, because I took the day off….Some of us still work. But as you said before, duh, I’m retired… 24/7..if do go, take the i-phone.

            1. Porky says he lives in Newport? Can you tell he loves us. The question is why the HELL he can’t get enough of Fullerton…The only thing he knows about Fullerton is FFFF. Retired cop? Or a lonely sole. He says he’s been to the Slimebar? Really, I’ve been there and if you like sucky drinks, bad food, bad music, and 21 years olds, I guess it can be at best OK…..OH and I forgto the barfing bathrooms.

              1. Ha. You guys are funny. Live at 39th and Balboa. Played at Pelican. Own property in Fullerton. My buddy is co owner of the SlideBar. FFFF is great entertainment. A few people ok here but most are so far off the cliff its actually humorous. Good times. Life is good. 🙂

                1. Porky, I know there are better places to go in Newport, why Slimebar? Have you looked at the patio lately? I would like think you have a little more class. Or is it the free drinks? Property owner, Truslow neighborhood?

  16. Dear Fullerton City Councilman,

    When is this intersection at Euclid and Malvern going to be corrected? The residents that live on the corner have created visual obstructions so close to the intersection that drivers going south on Euclid have zero visibility to cross traffic going east and west on Malvern.

    Ditto for the intersection of Valencia-Mesa and Euclid.

    How about the one at Lemon and Orangethorpe where Nick Adenhart and Courtney Stewart were killed?

    That intersection has a building built so close to the street that the drivers going south on Lemon aren’t able to see drivers travelling east and west on Orangethorpe until it’s too late.

    Joe Fel said a year or so ago that he was on top of this if you need to speak to someone whose supposedly “working on it.”

    How many more accidents and lives lost until we actually do something to correct these intersections?

    I’d suggest that the city begin by demanding that the homeowners and businesses located near these intersections do whatever is necessary to establish the 15 feet of visibility from the curb that the law allows for.


    1. I have lived here for over 30yrs. Most of the accidents at Euclid and Malvern are because people are going to fast on Euclid heading S. Maybe barriers better than chain link fence would at least keep the cars out of the drainage ditch. I have seen at 10 vehicles over the years in the ditch. The question is, what do we remove, those homes and appartment have been there for a long time.

      1. Next time that your heading south on Euclid and approaching Malvern, please let me know if you think that the visibility that a motorist to cross traffic on Malvern Avenue that is afforded to the motorists is adequate?

        The apartments and the homes at that particular intersection are NOT the problem. It’s actually the landscaping and brick walls that the homeowners have put up over the years.

        I think that the city of Fullerton needs to look at all of these intersections pronto and have the homeowners on the north side of Euclid,and the homeowners on Valencia Mesa start clearing the landscaping obstructions that they’ve erected over the years.

        The alternative is to bury your head in the sand and keep blaming the motorists.

        1. I agree with you 100%. 1 think what would help, would be to change the traffic signals back to the way they were. Get rid of the blinking yellows on the left hand turns. Living in this area I avoid this corner, and the corner of Euclid and Chapman is just as bad. Even if you have a green light always look who’s flying down the hill.

          1. For those bloggers who are not from Fullerton, here’s a street view of the intersection that CG and I are discussing that we both feel warrants attention from the city before anyone else gets hurt.

            The City Manager of Fullerton is Joe Felz. If you’d like to see this problem addressed ASAP, please let him know ASAP.


            1. You’ll have to manually enter “701 N. Euclid Fullerton” and click on “street view” to see what this intersection in Fullerton actually looks like.

            2. It is clear the women in the accident was trying to get through the left turn onto Euclid. She had the yellow blinking light. Cars heading east on Malvern are moving at the speed limit or more.”45mph”. As the article said she hit the gas, The cars heading east were moving faster than she thought, a misjudgement on her part. I still think the City should improve the barriers along the ditch.

              1. There is a young man standing on the corner of Euclid and Malvern, south east corner. I couldn’t read (on the opposite side) does anybody why he was standing out there?

        1. you wish “old retired flat foot” and on medical….what happened? Did you get a hang nail. BTW you amuse me….thank you…

        2. If your still bored ( psychopaths bore easily), maybe you could re-check the criteria I used I used to score you at a good solid 57 out of 60 on the Psycopathy checklist.

          After that last remark about being sexually promiscuous and dragging harlots home from the Slidebar, I may have to reconsider and give you a perfect score of 60 out of 60.


          1. Bye the bye, I like you and appreciate your sense of humor also.

            Heck I’d even consider playing golf with you someday over at Coyote Hills.

  17. It was a pleasure to visit the 9/11 memorial today on Woods Avenue. Friends were telling me tonight that they felt proud to be an American after going over there tonight.

    Did anyone else see it?

  18. I really wish the admin(s) would offer options for some of us to “auto ignore” GD and/or SF (e.g., “block” posts from GD and/or SF as an option)

  19. peaches :
    I really wish the admin(s) would offer options for some of us to “auto ignore” GD and/or SF (e.g., “block” posts from GD and/or SF as an option)

    I super speed scan them usually nothing or anything worth reading.

  20. Greg Diamond :
    After some years in fast good and retail

    Dunkin’ Donut Diamond. You would have been better off sticking with your first career choice. Now you’re just an underemployed, undertalented lawyer with a keyboard in mother’s basement.

  21. Porky Pig :Nice day today. Let’s all go golfing and then go to the SlideBar after.

    Porky Pig :I posted while golfing and my other post was from the wifi at SlideBar. Retirement is good. Yawn.

    Is that you Ron Thomas?

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