What About Those Other Four Cops, Their Bosses, and the FPD Code of Silence?

Watch as the DA explains how the other four officers involved in the Kelly Thomas murder did not mention excessive force when they wrote their reports of the incident.

Also recall that those reports were supposedly written (and even more importantly, rewritten) to the satisfaction of “The Management” who watched the tape.

Put it all together and you’ve got the makings of a full-fledged cover up.

Who were the FPD managers who orchestrated the collusion and the falsification of what they all knew to be true? We’d like to know Mssrs. Bankhead, Jones and McKinley, if it isn’t too much trouble!

228 Replies to “What About Those Other Four Cops, Their Bosses, and the FPD Code of Silence?”

      1. Agreed. The situation begs the question if after seeing the video why did the upper management brass give them ALL a pass? Really? It takes 6 weeks to put these out of control psychopaths on leave? The one and only reason the were put on leave is because their bullshit cover up got found out!!! Condoning this kind behavior is horrific and then a mass cover up ensues when found out? The Federal Officials are going to have a hay day with this one. Its obvious that Sellers,Goodrich and the Fullerton city leaders are all in on this and want the business as usual days to return but in light of the inaction of both the FPD and city’s bumbling council members who are attempting to cling to power it’s just not going to happen,the Feds have taken notice of just how messed up shit has become in Fullerton,Ca. Filing false police reports the match the video ought to be interesting to see but moreover what is on the video and who was doing what ought to be even more interesting. I have a feeling the GOBC “Good Ole Boys Club” days are numbered. It’s pretty F’ed up that the city council and the FPD have been acting as they have…recalling the city council members who are obviously outdated relics of a by gone era with self-serving agendas is a start,jailing them for their participation in this mass cover up will come,trust and believe in that.

  1. I wonder if the owner of the Slime bar was interviewed by the DA? Did he call the official police phone number, or did he call one of the cell phones of an offending cop?

    1. a good thing good is his “promise” not to reduce charges he made to RT. they will have to answer all the questions at trial about who called who etc. every lie they tell will be another fed charge.

  2. Editorial: Prosecuting cops right call in Thomas death

    Although Mr. Rackauckas said he found no evidence of criminal culpability by four other officers at the scene, he allowed for the remote possibility additional charges could be filed if new evidence is revealed. We hope no officers are deterred from testifying out of fear of self-incrimination. A public perception that police band together at the expense of justice also can harm that fragile compact of trust.

    http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/police-318510-thomas-rackauckas.html

  3. T-RACK’S OWN WORDS INCRIMINATED THE ROLE THE FOUR PLAYED IN THE ASSAULT ON KELLY, THAT ARE NOT THAT INNOCENT AS HE WOULD MAKE IT APPEAR. MAKE SURE TO READ THAT PDF FILE TRANSCRIPT FROM T-RACKS PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY?

    1. I agree. What he said didn’t make sense.

      I mean, if Officer Wolfe was on the other side of the car, which was right next to the scene and he was not aware of the exchange occurring between Ramos and Thomas, and therefore he is not legally culpable for anything…then how did a camera which was located further away happen to pick up a recording of the conversation? Or was the conversation recorded from the cruiser that Officer Wolfe was standing by?

      Either way, how could Wolfe not have heard the entire verbal exchange between Ramos and Thomas? I think Rack is lying. Someone should mention this to Thomas’ father.

      1. that is why it is so important to read the pdf file transcript of his press conference. wolf was there pinning kelly down and assisting with the beating. do not be surprised if they don’t offer wolf a plea deal to turn and testify against the others. it’s a plan where he wouldn’t be prosecuted in order to secure testimony against the other criminals and his bosses.

  4. Sickening…Disgusting…

    Just layer after layer of b.s. from these guys…I hope everyone in this country opens their eyes to this corruption of the FPD and Fullerton City Officials…

    It’s all black and white, no grays here…

  5. I heard his voice as soon as it started..

    Any experts care to chime in.. he knew the words his brain were going to dispense were going to be complete and utter bullshit.. you could hear and see it in his face..

    I will not name the person anymore and will avoid them like the plant they are..but a certain member here consistently tells us that T-Rack will fight tooth and nail to defend the citizens and always seeks to bring the police to call for their crimes and misdemeanors…

    He looked like Pinocchio up there to me

    all you need to know >>>25k bail for Jay

  6. **I meant to adddddddddddddddddd

    He has had two months now to REVIEW THE VIDEOS

    and he told us 3 of the 6 didn’t turn on their DAR’s

    ^^they learned from the sex assault cop

  7. I told you so. Never trust Orange County District Attorney office, Fullerton politicans, and its cronies.
    FBI is our last hope to bring fair justice. Many thanks to FFFF. Protect our future from self-destruction. Vote your heart out.

    1. as much as i despise authority i give the feds credit in a case like this. 6 years to get the Danziger killers, it can be done.

  8. It is clear that the Fullerton brass after seeing the video and hearing the audio approved of the police conduct. These people should be investigated for conspiracy to cover up these crimes. The evidence that they viewed did not support their version as told by the PIO. Why were Hampton and Cinccelli’s audio devices turned off? First clean house on the City Council then the new Council needs to disband the FPD! That’s the only way the city can start to recover.

  9. IT’S DIFFICULT TO SEE WITH ONLY ONE EYE, SO I LIKE TO USE ALL CAPS. WHAT SUCKS IS WHEN I AM BEATING SOMEONE WITH THE BUTT OF MY TAZER AND BLOOD SPLATTERS IN MY ONE GOOD EYE. WHEN THAT HAPPENS I AM BLINDED AND I HAVE TO JUST KEEP BEATING AND BEATING UNTIL THE VICTIM (AHEM SUBJECT) STOPS MOVING.

  10. Why did it take 3 weeks for the DA to receive the police reports from FPD? What happened between July 5th & July 26th? An officer previously posted that their system records every time they change a report or log in. Is this true? Are the changes recorded (sort of like Wikipedia where you can go back through previous versions)?

  11. These officers will be acquitted without a doubt.

    The DA submitted a crappy case full of holes to absolve himself of responsibly and to quiet down protesters.

    Yesterday the DA Tony R said on KFI that the combined weight of the all of officers caused Kelly’s death not the actions of one or two officers (Funny he didn’t name which officers were on top of Kelly).

    Good luck getting Ramos convicted for 2nd degree murder based on that and the DA’s case against Jay Cyclops is even weaker because his actions according to the DA did not cause Kelly’s death and lets not forget that they completely skipped over Wolfe’s actions.

    If any of the recordings start shortly after Officer Ramos contacts Kelly, the defense lawyers are going to say “gee we don’t know what was said or done before hand”.

    The DA want their hands clean, they want to say “Hey! We charged them. Don’t blame us. Blame the jury for not convicting them”.

    This is also why those officers are still getting paid. The FPD doesn’t want them suing them for “wrongful termination” when they are acquitted.

    In the meantime I expect some sort of multi million dollar settlement with Ron between the time this goes to trial and before the verdict to shut him up.

    They’re not going to work with Garo Mardirossia to go over additional evidence, they are not going to call all of their witnesses and they have no interest in the medical reports released by Ron Thomas. This is not justice for Kelly. This is a whitewash.

      1. The OCDA had nothing to do with that. The feds bit down on him.

        Considering the OCDA’s track record, Mike would have been tipped off on any investigation and no case would have been filed or any investigator attempting to open a case would have been stonewalled.

        Either way, there would not be a case.

        1. Just like corrupt cops with hardons for homeless guys,

          They’re Feds with hardons for corrupt cops that abuse authority.

          They won’t go a day without having to think about what they did to Kelly.

          And after all that? the IRS starts to step in, LOL!

          1. They’re sociopaths, criminals and cops of course they’re getting laid …well, maybe not Jay Cincinelli I heard his dick got shot off back in ’96.

    1. Whitewash wrote: “…the DA Tony R said on KFI that the combined weight of the all of officers caused Kelly’s death not the actions of one or two officers… Good luck getting Ramos convicted for 2nd degree murder based on that”

      That’s not what Ramos’ second degree murder charge is based upon at all.

      What it’s based on is the part of California’s Felony Murder Rule tied to People v. Ford, where the California Supreme Court ruled that a homicide committed during the commission of a felony can be charged as second degree murder.

      In this case Ramos is charged with both Felony Involuntary Manslaughter and Second Degree Murder. The manslaugter is the felony and the murder of Thomas is the homicide, thus we have a textbook case of Second Degree Murder under the Felony Murder Rule.

      This is why the DA had to wait for the autopsy to come back with the cause of death listed as homicide, rather than filing lesser charges based on the UCI doctor’s prior finding that it was caused by an assault.

  12. Someone in the FPD needs to step up and go to the FBI and tell the truth!! I know there are officers that are fed up, sick to their stomach, and flat out mad at whats been going on in their PD. Go rent SERPICO and see a real officer!! One that took his oath to serve and protect seriously!! The bad cops need to go and we all know theirs more than a few in your building!!

    1. I wrote a sincere letter to ask for fair investigation:
      Jerry Brown, CA Governor.
      U.S. Dept of Justice.
      President Obama Barrack, White House

      Lead by example. If you see corrupted cops or politcans, you must stand up. I guest they are interested to protect their jobs with high salary, nice profits, generous health insurance and pension. Simply outrageous.

  13. I really wish Wikileaks would help us in this case. If anyone can bring ALL the information to light, it is they who can do it. Then we will know exactly what all the investigation uncovered. I do hope the D.A. is not going to hide any of the facts from the jury, although it would not be the first time. In many instances, it is common practice.

  14. Tom :
    It is clear that the Fullerton brass after seeing the video and hearing the audio approved of the police conduct. These people should be investigated for conspiracy to cover up these crimes. The evidence that they viewed did not support their version as told by the PIO. Why were Hampton and Cinccelli’s audio devices turned off? First clean house on the City Council then the new Council needs to disband the FPD! That’s the only way the city can start to recover.

    You are right about the bigshots seeing and hearing it all and they treated as business as usual. Let them all go out on disability with the chief.

  15. Its A Whitewash :
    These officers will be acquitted without a doubt.
    The DA submitted a crappy case full of holes to absolve himself of responsibly and to quiet down protesters.
    Yesterday the DA Tony R said on KFI that the combined weight of the all of officers caused Kelly’s death not the actions of one or two officers (Funny he didn’t name which officers were on top of Kelly).
    Good luck getting Ramos convicted for 2nd degree murder based on that and the DA’s case against Jay Cyclops is even weaker because his actions according to the DA did not cause Kelly’s death and lets not forget that they completely skipped over Wolfe’s actions.
    If any of the recordings start shortly after Officer Ramos contacts Kelly, the defense lawyers are going to say “gee we don’t know what was said or done before hand”.
    The DA want their hands clean, they want to say “Hey! We charged them. Don’t blame us. Blame the jury for not convicting them”.
    This is also why those officers are still getting paid. The FPD doesn’t want them suing them for “wrongful termination” when they are acquitted.
    In the meantime I expect some sort of multi million dollar settlement with Ron between the time this goes to trial and before the verdict to shut him up.
    They’re not going to work with Garo Mardirossia to go over additional evidence, they are not going to call all of their witnesses and they have no interest in the medical reports released by Ron Thomas. This is not justice for Kelly. This is a whitewash.

    You are speaking the the reality of the outcome.

  16. I thought the D.A. said something about releasing the evidence at the press conference?

    When, if, and how does that usually happen?

    1. “When, if, and how does that usually happen?”

      I want to see convictions more than self-affirming evidence, so hopefully the must damning and shocking stuff won’t be made public until the discovery phase of the trial. At which time it will likely be the defense that puts the video (and audio) out to the public so as to put as much time as possible between the shock of its revelations and jury deliberations.

      If you want convictions you want the jury to be shocked and disgusted by what they see and hear.

      If you want the cops to walk then you want the video and audio out now so that the public and potential jurors have plenty of time to see it get picked apart and to get over its shocking nature.

      1. Thanks, as always, for your expert opinion.

        I’m just curious, though… where did you study law and get your JD?

  17. Anonymous :
    I thought the D.A. said something about releasing the evidence at the press conference?
    When, if, and how does that usually happen?

    The brass don’t want us to know any more of the horror that night.

    1. o.k. leo, but my post was about what I thought the D.A. actually said, you saw the press conference right? …what did you hear?

    1. “The public, however, should demand that all officers who made false reports are punished. I have long believed that prosecutors and police departments should show leniency to officers who admit that they made a mistake, but treat officers who make a deliberate decision to lie or cover up severely. We can all sympathize with split-second error in judgment; but we should never tolerate a calculated coverup. Even more important, if officers know that to keep their jobs, everyone on the force has tell the truth, even about their mistakes, they are more likely to avoid conduct that can get them in trouble in the first place. In the end, that is what we all want out of tragedies like the death of Kelly Thomas.”

      That pretty much says it all.

        1. Oh goodness no. I don’t believe it is true of FPD. I believe it is a good principle in terms of justice for cops. “We should never tolerate a calculated coverup” is the key phrase here.

    1. I’M TwO ATOOPIDTOOTHINK OF AN INTELLIGENT ARGUMENT, SO USE OTHER PEOPLE’S NAMES TOO POSTMYBRAIN DEAD DRIVEL. ALTHOUGH A TWENTY-YEAR VETERAN OF THE FPD, I HAVE THE IQ OF A RETARDED FOURTH GRADE DROPOUT. BUT, I GET TWO HAVE A GUN AND BADGE, AND YOU DON’T, SO THERE!!! NYAA NYAA NYAA!!

  18. brinks667 :
    Sickening…Disgusting…
    Just layer after layer of b.s. from these guys…I hope everyone in this country opens their eyes to this corruption of the FPD and Fullerton City Officials…
    It’s all black and white, no grays here…

    Yeah, we’re just a lynch mob and a bunch of crazy hippies with signs, what good can we do? .. Oh, I know, we can expose them!

  19. Orwell was right. The police will continue to get worse and worse. We are slaves and there is NO freedom. If you really believe there will be true justice in this case, can you hand ME some of what you are smokin’, because from where I stand I see a New World Order. We have NO voice anymore. Not on the streets and NOT at the voting booth.

    1. Dose, you are trapped in a paradigm:

      “It is important note that according to Weber, society sets up these bureaucratic systems, and it is up to society to change them. Weber argues that it is very difficult to change or break these bureaucracies, but if they are indeed socially constructed, then society should be able to intervene and shift the system.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_cage

  20. but but..

    you just can’t make this stuff up
    http://www.ocweekly.com/2007-02-08/news/illegally-park-ed/

    ^^^^^POSTED IN DEFENSE of T-RACK by member here

    cop got off for stalking a woman and masturbating all over her.. good job t-rack
    ———————

    I searched for the goofy list but could not find it.

    one of the cases ni defense of T-Rack was how two cops caught too many crabs in their nets repeatedly and the fish and game warden cited them.. SO.. T-Rack was forced to do something about it..

    ah well..

    **BIG REMINDER… T-rack is far more BLUELINE than you all want to think.. He works for the police department basically.. in conjunction with 24×7 to put the bad guys away who they bring to him

  21. We the people along with Messrs. Bankhead, Jones and McKinely know what happended on 5th July 2011. Two fullerton police officers murdered Kelly Thomas and four present at this scene Fullerton police officers colluded with Fullerton police chief Sellers to cover-up this murder. Aiding them in this endeavor, Fullerton city council members Jones, Bankhead and McKinley refused to publically comment on Kelly Thomas murder. Due to persistent public outcry, these three city council members could no longer evade the murder of a disabled, homeless man, so they hired a smoke screen “independent ” investigator. The independent investigator Gennaco’ s job is to cast enough doubt on the culpability of Jones, McKinley and Bankhead for pushing the policy of physically abusing/intimidating the homeless and other undesirables on the Fullerton Police Dept. Fullerton’s downtown may not have as many homeless ruining eateries ambience, but after this horrible murder, I never will patronize any business located in Fullerton’s downtown.

    1. You, and so many of you on here, are so f’g WRONG on this whole “cover-up” bullshit you started. All because the proper and LEGAL processes were followed to ENSURE that when the investigations were completed, nothing could compromise a accurate outcome. It was an absolute horrible incident and God knows where those two went so wrong. But give up on your freaking conspiracy theory – it’s just STUPID! IT DOES NOT EXIST.

  22. Wow! :
    You fffers are complete morons! Do you even read what you post and how idiotic you all sound!

    You offered so much insight I think I am now saved.. thanks

  23. I would bet that none of the six cops who murdered Kelly have one ounce of remorse over his death. Fullerton cops are inhumane animals just waiting for their next prey. For some reason they decided to turn in any feelings of compassion towards other human beings and become bullies of the highest magniteude. I dont understand what motivates people to become sadistic monsters,

    1. MeYou :
      How many charges does a taser hold?
      and is that taser he held up the same ones used by FPD?

      Well, if you’re a one-eyed cyclops that likes to fuck up homeless schizophrenics, a taser just doesnt have enough charges. After you torture the guy four times and the battery goes dead, you beat him in the face with it. Any taser He was holding up would be one that would cause a mistrial in this instance.

  24. Some of the lack of charges against the other 4 officers will become reflected in the size of the civil suit award. Fullerton is civily liable for the actions of all the policemen who intervened. I do believe the DA who said that the last two to arrive did not know what was actually happening. However, they have not come forward with any statements but will be forced to testify via depositions or a civil trial.
    The cost to City of Fullerton of the defense of the civil lawsuit and the settlement will be enormous. Being a self insured city, the taxpayers, residents and ratepayers (businesses) will see a huge tax increase or a large cut in city services including looking into possibility of dumping FPD and replacing it with the OCSD or a nearby city PD. Placentia? Brea?
    i like Fullerton, it has some trendy, nice places. BUT, my friends and I do not go there anymore. Too bad for Fullerton businesses, but I have not heard any of them speak out about this entire tragic situation.

    1. Ever seen “Tombstone” with Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer? That should give you an idea about who controls downtown Fullerton.

    2. “Too bad for Fullerton businesses, but I have not heard any of them speak out about this entire tragic situation.”

      Here is an article with extensive comments made just days after Thomas’ murder made by downtown Fullerton business owner Jeremy Popoff:

      http://fullertonstories.com/opinion-when-worlds-collide/

      The whole thing is worth reading, especially for the author’s comments about his family’s own struggles with a schizophrenic brother, but here are some excerpts:

      “I feel guilty having ever had any contempt for this guy, but if you had asked me about him a month ago, I’d have nothing good to say about him,” Popoff said. “I don’t want to say that it was justified, what happened. But man, Kelly scared people. We …. were always having to kick him out of our bathrooms or tell him to leave customers alone. Then he would yell at us.”

      Popoff is not alone. Another local business owner, who wanted to remain anonymous, expressed sadness for the situation, and then added, “This guy, I’d wouldn’t be surprised if he was an asshole to the cops. He was an asshole to everybody.”

      “He had long matted hair and a matted beard that stuck to his body,” Popoff said. “I wish there was something I could do or could have done a long time ago. My manager was in tears when she called me that night. She was really shaken up by it. “

      Popoff said that the police have been good to the homeless in the area near his bar. “The cops have been really lenient with him and other homeless. He was allowed to get away with a lot more because he was homeless. The cops gave him a lot of breaks.”

      “We’ve given him lots of stuff,” Popoff added. “[He was] not allowed to be here anymore because Kelly did not respect our customers.

      “The last thing I want is to be anti-PD or anti-Kelly. We live here, I’m a father. We support the PD and the residents and the community. Literally, most of my staff was very scared and intimidated by him. They were reluctant to ask him to move along,” says Popoff. “Two or three days before [the arrest] he was bumming cigarettes and the manager said to him ‘Kelly you can’t’ do that her, you gotta move on.’ And Kelly screamed back at him ‘don’t call me by my first name!’

    3. those buisnesses are for drunk college kids to lose their money, be set up for DUI etc. easy to intimidate too. look at the pics on the sleazebar website.glassy eyed slackers spending daddys money

      1. Pretty true.

        Except that sometimes they have some good shows for those of us that have been paying our own way for a few decades. I saw Dick Dale there, the King of the Surf Guitar. He’s always fun and the small venue was a treat.

        1. “Listen to the king of the Surf Guitar….”

          Hope he played “The Wedge.”

          First quality act I ever heard of playing Slidebar.

  25. And this is a surprise why?

    While it’s true the DA needs to work with the police to prosecute criminals, there’s has been an uneasy relationship of late. Ever since T-Rack himself publicly charged cops, all cops not just the OCSD, with operating within a ‘blue wall of silence’ in 2009 he has been feuding with local law enforcement and police unions state-wide ever since. Even the DA’s biggest critic at the Weekly has acknowledged such and reported on the feud numerous times. Here’s an example: http://www.ocweekly.com/2009-05-28/news/moxley-confidential/

    In any case, did anyone really expect that any of these cops would write something like, “and then I saw my superior officer, Cpl Cicinelli pistol whip the victim in the face with his Taser.” I mean seriously? You’d have to be an idiot to think that was ever gonna happen. So what’s the point again?

    This is just some really self-evident weak sauce, tortured and stretched thin to get in another deserved lick on those idiot councilmen Tony has a hard on for, that’s all..

    1. Well, yes, as a taxpaying citizen that’s what I expect. That they tell the truth. That does not make me an idiot. Am I surprised that they did not? No, that part is not a surprise. Pointing out the fact that they did not write accurate reports is to show that they have, in fact, lied and covered up and we have a responsibility to address that so that we can continue to “expect” that our officers of the peace are in fact, upholding the peace. And maybe eventually, if we keep shining the light and holding them responsible and giving them consequences, eventually not only will we be able to expect that they tell the truth and expose brutality, we will one day also not be surprised when that is what police officers do.

      1. Eventually, change the culture so that we WILL be surprised when we discover dishonesty, dishonor, and criminality in our LEOs.

    2. As a life scout with Fullerton troop 292, and as president of the high school fellowship at Fullerton First Presbyterian Church, and as a son of the many great fathers of Fullerton of the 1960’s and 70’s, yes, I do expect honesty, integrity, and self-sacrifice.

      I am not joking, this is not hyperbole, and I will enforce honesty and integrity to the best of my ability.

    3. Weak sauce, huh? Tortured and stretched?

      So you thinks it’s no big deal for the six and their superiors to collude on their reports and carefully omit facts about what really happened? So which of their reports is anybody ever supposed to believe now?

      I think it’s disgusting and reprehensible.If you can’t see this episode as perfect evidence of the FPD culture of corruption aided and abetted by Jones, Bankhead and especially McKinley, then I would respectfully submit to you that you’ve got your head shoved so far up your ass you can look out between your teeth.

      1. I appreciate what you guys are saying, and the fine sentiments expressed. Especially that part about my head, teeth and ass. Classic.

        I’m not excusing what went on here. It’s just hard for me to get too worked up about stuff I assume they are doing anyway.

        Truth is often up for grabs, and even the best of us shade the facts in our favor on a daily basis. In business you learn this fast or quickly become somebody’s lunch. Why would I assume it to be any different in law enforcement? That’s their game, selling themselves as paragons of virtue and even heroes. I’m not buying it, but none of us can have it both ways.

        When I see that there is a lot on the line and sense a certain desperation, the more wary I become, and the less surprised I am by omissions, strong shadings of the truth, misdirections, etc.

        Add in the fact that I believe I understand how cops think. There’s is a world where the lines are drawn very distinctly, they represent and are on the side of good, the people they arrest are bad, assholes even. The rest of us are potential assholes. And their fellow cops aren’t just colleagues or co-workers, they are brothers in arms. They give each other frat boy-like nicknames. To be a good cop, first and foremost, is to stand by your brothers.

        So no I’m not shocked that no one wrote in their report that “Cpl C beat the shit out of the guy, tased him until his taser ran out of battery power, then used it to pistol whip him across the face.” Not even surprised much at all.

        A lot was on the line, and I doubt they even thought what they did was all that wrong. Indeed, I noticed in the DA’s case info that, “After paramedics arrived, Cicinelli is accused of commenting about his use of force and the physical damage to Thomas.” In other words he was bragging about how he had really fucked that guy up. So yeah, I would expect people who would do that to omit and shade the truth strongly in their favor while writing their worthless reports.

        That doesn’t mean I excuse it, if I were Chief I would fire ’em all and start doing stings. Grocery store workers have secret shoppers, why not have secret victims? See who goes how far in shading the truth. If Joe Cop has no idea that he might be stung by a secret victim, the scales could begin to tip in favor of honesty and integrity. Just a thought. And cameras. Lots of camera, hidden cameras. Who do you think the cameras are trained on most of the time at the supermarket? Hint, it’s not the customers. And anybody who habitually turns their DAR off or forgets to turn it on: Fired.

      1. other 5?
        go back and watch the press conference, he mentions the two charged and three others by name but I thought there were 6 involved?

  26. Defense Attorney For Fullerton Police Officer Speaks Out

    Barnett said it was very unusual to bring murder charges against a peace officer “not because he was the instrument of Death, but because he was the initial officer.”

    As with that case, a video will be key to the prosecution of Officer Ramos.

    “I believe it’s going to support the defense in this case. Videos and audios have to be taken into context and if they aren’t, you come to the wrong conclusions,” said Barnett.

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Defense-Attorney-For-Fullerton-Police-Officer-Charged-Speaks-Out-130395733.html

  27. The Orange County Register :
    Lawrence Rosenthal: Charges in Kelly Thomas case defensible
    The author is a Professor of Law at Chapman University School of Law. He has both prosecuted and defended police officers accused of misconduct.
    http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/officers-318524-police-officer.html

    This line was disturbing

    “…it is not a crime to fail to intervene when you see someone else committing a crime, even if you are a police officer. ”

    even if a police officer witnesses his fellow officer committing a crime …
    he/she does not have to arrest them or report it to anyone?

    Such high standards America has set for their protectors of the peace

    1. Okay, so they didn’t intervene when they saw their police colleagues committing a crime….they joined in and participated. Did those officers who did not violently participate and who did not intervene at least report the brutality they witnessed their fellow officers inflict on Kelly Thomas? Or did they fail to mention the violent and excessive nature of the assault?

      The civilian witnesses who were getting onto the bus, were visibly shaken and upset and even said, “they killed that guy” “electrocuted him” and so forth. If they could see how violent it was, how could not the backup officers see that? Well, they could, and they are lying if they say they didn’t know.

      1. “Did those officers who did not violently participate and who did not intervene at least report the brutality they witnessed their fellow officers inflict on Kelly Thomas?”

        They did not, and their defense would be they didn’t think it was that brutal, police work is often ugly and blah blah blah.

        They can’t be prosecuted with any hoipe of a win, but they should be fired. All of them. And never allowed to work as cops again. But that’s not likey to happen. Theire union will step in and try to see that they get some retraining and put back on the job, but I don’t think that’s going to happen either. Something will happen in the middle, a negotiated departure with a don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out is what I would expect.

        1. The D. A. is saying they won’t release the video tape until after (or possibly during) the trials.

          I would like to see the entire tape before I decide for myself who is guilty and who is not.

          I’ve no fault with those being charged now, but for the other officers I’d REALLY like to see for myself exactly what they did.

    2. It may be disturbing but it’s been the law of the land for a very long time. About 125 years actually.

      In 1856 in South v. Maryland the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that local law enforcement had no duty to protect individuals, but only a general duty to enforce the laws.

      The rationale behind this based on doctrines of public duty and qualified government immunity for discretionary functions. Also that governments serve the public as a whole, and no one person in particular.

      To understand why this is necessary, look at it this way: If cops, and in turn the taxpayers, were to be held liable for failing to protect, our courts would be clogged with victims of crimes ranging from minor petty theft through murder, seeking relief from their loss from the government.

      1. I agree with the case law, but that does not extend to inaction that makes oneself participatory to a crime. Proof is quite a burden, however.

  28. I guess even if 4 other cops watched Jay Cincinelli

    Taser Kelly Thomas 4 times
    Bash him in the face and skull 8 times
    Knee drop on him twice

    it wasn’t a crime to them /tear

  29. Barnett is being disingenuous, he knows this case and the charges agsinst his client are all about the Felony Murder Rule, but he’s right about one thing, it’s very unusual for a DA to bring murder charges against a police officer in an on-duty brutality case PERIOD, just not for the reasons he claims.

    Barnett is trying hard to battle back and influence the jury pool after yesterday’s debacle for his client. T-Rack gave the equivalent of a homerun closing argument, and that move of putting the gloves on while repeating Ramos’ alleged words, “these hands are getting ready to fuck you up,” that’s going to stick with any potential jurors who saw it for a long, long time.

  30. Criminal is the Same. Will There Be a Justice in Orange County.
    JACKSON, Ga. — Strapped to a gurney in Georgia’s death chamber, Troy Davis was convicted in 1991 of killing MacPhail.
    MacPhail rushed to the aid of a homeless man who prosecutors said Davis was bashing with a handgun after asking him for a beer. No gun was ever found, but prosecutors say shell casings were linked to an earlier shooting for which Davis was convicted.
    Nothing ever does happen to cops who kill people. At most, they will do a year or two in jail — more probably, they might be fired. Maybe. Then they’ll just go get a job at some other police department.
    Heavily armed “PUBLIC SERVANTS” who have the capability of delivering this kind of damage should be held to a higher standard and DESERVE a MUCH harsher sentence / NO leniency when they commit such acts OR fail to stop them.

  31. What about the other four?

    Manny Ramos, while charged, is looking more and more like a patsy to me.

    In no way absolving him, but for such a messy incident, it sure seems to be fitting pretty nicely into a SMALL neatly wrapped box.

    1. Does sort of look that way. Hmmm…why would they make that particular officer the fall guy, especially considering the past documented brutality of some of the officers? Do they think they are more likely to get a conviction on Ramos because…and then he can be the fall guy and the other ones get off? Wonder if all of the other five will roll over on Ramos and let him be their fall guy? I don’t believe you can even count on “honor among thieves” with this bunch.

    2. A patsy? According to the DA’s theory of the case Ramos instigated the whole thing by escalating “the lawful detainment to an unlawful use of force.”

      If the video and audio recordings are presented at trial as we expect, proving T-Rack’s theory, and we have no reason to assume they won’t, then Ramos is hardly a patsy. Under the Felony Murder Rule, he’s the mofo that killed Kelly Thomas.

    3. Ramos received the correct charge because he was the instigator and he started the ball in motion.

      That “patsy” could have chosen to tell Kelly to leave, given him a ticket for loitering or even driven him out of town but instead he chose to slowly and methodically set into motion a series of events that would justify seriously injuring him.

      He actions led to the death of Kelly Thomas and he should pay the price for it (NO IF, ANDS OR BUTS).

      On the other hand, Wolfe and Jay Cincinelli (who literally beat in Kelly’s face) skated but the DA has no interest in justice, he knows the case has more holes than swiss cheese and all 2 will get off. He only filed this half ass case to quiet down everyone.

  32. EyeNeverSayNo :
    “Too bad for Fullerton businesses, but I have not heard any of them speak out about this entire tragic situation.”
    Here is an article with extensive comments made just days after Thomas’ murder made by downtown Fullerton business owner Jeremy Popoff:
    http://fullertonstories.com/opinion-when-worlds-collide/
    The whole thing is worth reading, especially for the author’s comments about his family’s own struggles with a schizophrenic brother, but here are some excerpts:
    “I feel guilty having ever had any contempt for this guy, but if you had asked me about him a month ago, I’d have nothing good to say about him,” Popoff said. “I don’t want to say that it was justified, what happened. But man, Kelly scared people. We …. were always having to kick him out of our bathrooms or tell him to leave customers alone. Then he would yell at us.”
    Popoff is not alone. Another local business owner, who wanted to remain anonymous, expressed sadness for the situation, and then added, “This guy, I’d wouldn’t be surprised if he was an asshole to the cops. He was an asshole to everybody.”
    “He had long matted hair and a matted beard that stuck to his body,” Popoff said. “I wish there was something I could do or could have done a long time ago. My manager was in tears when she called me that night. She was really shaken up by it. “
    Popoff said that the police have been good to the homeless in the area near his bar. “The cops have been really lenient with him and other homeless. He was allowed to get away with a lot more because he was homeless. The cops gave him a lot of breaks.”
    “We’ve given him lots of stuff,” Popoff added. “[He was] not allowed to be here anymore because Kelly did not respect our customers.
    “The last thing I want is to be anti-PD or anti-Kelly. We live here, I’m a father. We support the PD and the residents and the community. Literally, most of my staff was very scared and intimidated by him. They were reluctant to ask him to move along,” says Popoff. “Two or three days before [the arrest] he was bumming cigarettes and the manager said to him ‘Kelly you can’t’ do that her, you gotta move on.’ And Kelly screamed back at him ‘don’t call me by my first name!’

    Can someone show us Kelly’s police record?

    Seems these events that Popoff *Owner of the Slidebar Fullerton” and the anonymous business owner should have filed some sort of complaint against Kelly if they are telling the truth.

    For reference- It is the Slidebar that is implicated as the establishment that had been told special rules/coached by the cops to call in loitering as car burglary etc so that the FPD could use more force to remove them..

  33. Tony Serra :
    What about the other four?
    Manny Ramos, while charged, is looking more and more like a patsy to me.
    In no way absolving him, but for such a messy incident, it sure seems to be fitting pretty nicely into a SMALL neatly wrapped box.

    Jay “I tasered Kelly Thomas FOUR times and Bludgeoned him EIGHT times with the same taser and knee dropped his throat and lungs” Cincinelli

    25k BAIL

    Ramos

    1 million dollars bail

    Insane or legit..

    Does Jay still have people behind the scenes pulling strings for him even as a murderer?

  34. Whatever his history regarding police prosecution, the OCDA deserves credit for filing serious charges. He has assumed the lead role in prosecuting this case. He didn’t have to do that. He also left the door open for further charges which seems inevitable. More evidence will come to light and Kelly will get justice one way or the other.

    Best wishes Fullerton in reforming your local government.

    God bless you Kelly.

  35. EyeNeverSayNo :
    And this is a surprise why?
    While it’s true the DA needs to work with the police to prosecute criminals, there’s has been an uneasy relationship of late. Ever since T-Rack himself publicly charged cops, all cops not just the OCSD, with operating within a ‘blue wall of silence’ in 2009 he has been feuding with local law enforcement and police unions state-wide ever since. Even the DA’s biggest critic at the Weekly has acknowledged such and reported on the feud numerous times. Here’s an example: http://www.ocweekly.com/2009-05-28/news/moxley-confidential/
    In any case, did anyone really expect that any of these cops would write something like, “and then I saw my superior officer, Cpl Cicinelli pistol whip the victim in the face with his Taser.” I mean seriously? You’d have to be an idiot to think that was ever gonna happen. So what’s the point again?
    This is just some really self-evident weak sauce, tortured and stretched thin to get in another deserved lick on those idiot councilmen Tony has a hard on for, that’s all..

    Bullshit.

    The civilians that witnessed Kelly’s murder wanted to stop it but couldn’t because they knew they’d be beat or arrested or both. They wanted to help. They knew what was happening was wrong. Why didn’t the cops feel the same? That’s their job!

    The cops who did nothing should have stopped it. They played a part in Kelly’s murder and should be charged accordingly. I would think the watch commander plays a part as well.

    The bullshit runs deep on this one and has nothing to do with Tony.

    Oh, and the point is justice and reform. If you don’t think either are important or possible then I seriously question your motives for posting here.

    1. I pray the federal investigators are out of towners because this isnt going anywhere if they’re deeply entrenched with OC law enforcement.

  36. We Are All One :

    EyeNeverSayNo :
    And this is a surprise why?
    While it’s true the DA needs to work with the police to prosecute criminals, there’s has been an uneasy relationship of late. Ever since T-Rack himself publicly charged cops, all cops not just the OCSD, with operating within a ‘blue wall of silence’ in 2009 he has been feuding with local law enforcement and police unions state-wide ever since. Even the DA’s biggest critic at the Weekly has acknowledged such and reported on the feud numerous times. Here’s an example: http://www.ocweekly.com/2009-05-28/news/moxley-confidential/
    In any case, did anyone really expect that any of these cops would write something like, “and then I saw my superior officer, Cpl Cicinelli pistol whip the victim in the face with his Taser.” I mean seriously? You’d have to be an idiot to think that was ever gonna happen. So what’s the point again?
    This is just some really self-evident weak sauce, tortured and stretched thin to get in another deserved lick on those idiot councilmen Tony has a hard on for, that’s all..

    Bullshit.
    The civilians that witnessed Kelly’s murder wanted to stop it but couldn’t because they knew they’d be beat or arrested or both. They wanted to help. They knew what was happening was wrong. Why didn’t the cops feel the same? That’s their job!
    The cops who did nothing should have stopped it. They played a part in Kelly’s murder and should be charged accordingly. I would think the watch commander plays a part as well.
    The bullshit runs deep on this one and has nothing to do with Tony.
    Oh, and the point is justice and reform. If you don’t think either are important or possible then I seriously question your motives for posting here.

    Search for one bad word against the DA from him.. even a half of a bad word

    anon :
    Okay, so they didn’t intervene when they saw their police colleagues committing a crime….they joined in and participated. Did those officers who did not violently participate and who did not intervene at least report the brutality they witnessed their fellow officers inflict on Kelly Thomas? Or did they fail to mention the violent and excessive nature of the assault?
    The civilian witnesses who were getting onto the bus, were visibly shaken and upset and even said, “they killed that guy” “electrocuted him” and so forth. If they could see how violent it was, how could not the backup officers see that? Well, they could, and they are lying if they say they didn’t know.

    I can only think of a few enemies of the USA who any “human” would allow another human to bludgeon 8 times in their face and taser 4 times and knee drop on his lungs and throat WITHOUT CALLING IT TORTURE/MURDER

    makes me want to puke right now just thinking of those miserable pieces of flesh/dna sitting there and watching the videos and rewriting and adjusting their police reports and then.. then..

    putting their badges on the next day and listening to Sinny making fun of how bad he beat on Kelly

  37. This would be one case that I would love to get a Jury notice for. Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! I hope the other 4 at least get fired because they could have stopped these two.

  38. EyeNeverSayNo :It may be disturbing but it’s been the law of the land for a very long time. About 125 years actually.
    In 1856 in South v. Maryland the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that local law enforcement had no duty to protect individuals, but only a general duty to enforce the laws.
    The rationale behind this based on doctrines of public duty and qualified government immunity for discretionary functions. Also that governments serve the public as a whole, and no one person in particular.
    To understand why this is necessary, look at it this way: If cops, and in turn the taxpayers, were to be held liable for failing to protect, our courts would be clogged with victims of crimes ranging from minor petty theft through murder, seeking relief from their loss from the government.

    I’m sure you keep up with the news;

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0923-jaycee-dugard-20110923,0,7141062.story?track=rss

  39. The Feds WILL handle this… they have a huge team that sent dozens of NOPD to jail. Goodcandybar and the rest, including the interim chief are REALLY scared at this point. Letting the murdering 6 view the videos, listen to the audio and get away with not turning on the DAR’s and then the complete lack of oversite for weeks will send ALOT of FPD to federal prison…. this is BIG and it is nation wide. It may take a few years but Goodcandybar and his lies will pay, Hampton will pay, the watch commander will pay, Wolfe will pay, Sellers will definetly pay, plus a whole array of middle management cops will pay…. Ramos and Sissynelli will get extra federal charges (the union knows it) for KILLING a man without provocation…… The NOPD are serving LIFE sentences for killing people with felony records…. kelly was an innocent with a handicap… Ramos and Sissynelli should fry but the feds do not do that, they just send you away for years and years and years…. 23 hour a day lock down and cuffs and ankle chains everywhere else for a dirty cop….. Kelly will get his justice.

  40. Okay, The Feds will take awhile but they sent dozens of NOPD cops to prison… Goodcandybar and Hampton, the new chief, the old chief and lots of mid level thugs are scared right now… they need to be look at NOPD and the Dnziger bridge, the Henry Glover killing etc…. You are going to prison, this thing is HUGE nd it is not going away… strike a deal with the Feds and protect your family… Sellers, ramos, Goodcandybar, Sissynelli and the union do not care about you, they will CYA thier own asses…. Yes a jury will convict you NOPD, Meshrle the pedophile cops in San Berdoo, etc etc etc… hundreds if not thousands of us are out their, it only takes one of us citizens to get on your jury…..

  41. NBC4 News :
    Defense Attorney For Fullerton Police Officer Speaks Out
    Barnett said it was very unusual to bring murder charges against a peace officer “not because he was the instrument of Death, but because he was the initial officer.”
    As with that case, a video will be key to the prosecution of Officer Ramos.
    “I believe it’s going to support the defense in this case. Videos and audios have to be taken into context and if they aren’t, you come to the wrong conclusions,” said Barnett.
    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Defense-Attorney-For-Fullerton-Police-Officer-Charged-Speaks-Out-130395733.html

    this defense lawyer is maybe the biggest nut yet

  42. I may sound like a broken record but it is time to convene a Grand Jury and compel all involved to give sworn testimony or we will never know the whole truth

  43. When T-Rack admitted that none of the FPD 6 would give a statement then it is clear that a Grand Jury investigation is in order. Does anyone agree or am I as full of B.S. as Mayor Dick ?

    1. In 2009 the DA took the Hibbs case to a Grand Jury which then took sworn testimony from several witness/officers. Just one problem, at trial they all got a sudden and severe case of amnesia, causing the DA’s office to lash out at the cops for their “blue wall of silence,” beginning a feud between the DA’s office and cops local and statewide that is still going on today.

      T-Rack learned from this that he can’t count on cop/witnesses, even if they’ve been deposed before the Grand Jury. This is why he had to wait for the autopsy to build a case that does not depend on witnesses of any kind.

      1. I’m still waiting for your response as to why you think that this is all a personal vendetta that Tony Bushala is carrying out towards the Three Blind Mice?
        I’ve stated in this blog before that the recall campaign will have it’s 10,500 signatures of Fullerton residents in the hands of the City Clerk by Halloween, and yet you still contend that it’s only Tony that has a hard on for these guys? I’ve witnessed many a senior citizen break into a trot in front of the grocery stores here in Fullerton just to sign these recall initiatives to get rid of these fools, and the most common overheard remark is “How did Bankhead get back in again? I thought we got rid of him before?

  44. I love the previous video posted on FFF from Cal State Fullerton.
    “Fullerton Police Department is a model of what NOT to do..” .
    They are actually using FPD as a case study on what not to do in these types of situations. This will go down in history and text books for years to come.

  45. Eye- what you say might be true but if you give up just because you might lose then you have no integrity and do not deserve to be a public servant

    1. I agree, I think, but give what up? The cops aren’t going to change, and for this reason a grand jury investigation isn’t going to add anything of value to what appears to be a solid case against Ramos and Cicinelli, with video, audio and a very favorable to the prosecution coroner’s report.

  46. What it will do is shed light on all who were involved and at this point we need to look at all of the others that were aware and either did nothing or made an effort to minmize and or cover up what has been happening in our community for years

  47. I’m pleased at the charges the D.A. filed, but also agree that there should be others that get them as well. As much as I would like to believe the D.A. did the right thing, I believe this blog and KFI radio made it nearly impossible not to. As for KFi, has anyone listed to their morning host Bill Handel? He continues to speak negatively about the “lynch mob” mentality of many of those in Fullerton, and criticized Ron Thomas for his being so active in the media. If he took calls, I would ask him if he would “sit quietly and patiently” while the authorities did their work, if one of his daughters was raped and brutally beaten to death by several police officers?
    He has a very negative opinion of those who have in reality, caused this case to get to where is has today. His producer at needs to get him up to date on how deep the corruption actually is.

  48. After having read the complete exchange between Ramos and Thomas just now, I definitely see why Ramos lost his temper.

    Ramos’ actions were bullshit, make no mistake about that. But Kelly definitely came across as lippy, especially when directly challenging Ramos by saying, “Start punching, dude” after Ramos had just threatened him.

    Believe me when I say I grieve for Kelly. His death sickened me AND I want all cover-up cops in jail. But if reading the conversation can make me see things in a slightly different light, what do you think a jury itching to acquit will do?

      1. Kelly definitely came across as lippy, especially when directly challenging Ramos by saying, “Start punching, dude” after Ramos had just threatened him.

        if reading the conversation can make me see things in a slightly different light, what do you think a jury itching to acquit will do?

        Unfortunately dumb fucks like you who can’t distinct between right and wrong make it on juries and this is what defense lawyers bank on.

        “He had it comin’ ’cause he got all smart ass with the cop Derp!”

        “You don’t talk smack to a cop EVAH! Herp!”

        “I’ve seen far worse injuries that were survivable. I don’t know why he died.”

        …Dumb fuck.

    1. What Kelly said to the officer falls under the catagory of ‘Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.).

      C’mon. It’s reported that Ramos knew Kelly and from information posted, and not contradicted, in these blogs, is that they had had many and multiple contacts in the past. Ramos allegedely(sp)(Why is there no spell checker here??)

      The police knew Kelly. Knew he was not a danger. They didn’t even take the time to search him for weapons. Why? Because he’d never had any in the past and they did not consider him a threat.

      Sometimes good people do terrible things.

      This was one of those times.

      I hope for due process and justice.

    2. People who suffer from schizophrenia usually do NOT EVER say the “expected.” They are usually NOT “socially appropriate,” and they usually do NOT realize the consequences of their behaviors or speech. If someone threatened to F U my son, (who also suffers from schizophrenia), I can very easily imagine my son reacting in EXACTLY the same, immediately defensive, manner.

      To me, Kelly’s statements and reactions and behaviors are only further, clear evidence of his illness and of his inability to react in the way that you might think that a “normal” person would react.

      You absolutely can NOT expect Kelly to react in the same way that you might think that you, yourself, would react. Kelly WAS very cognitively challenged and he obviously was afraid and he said the first thing that came into his mind. He reacted out of instinct. He was not able to carefully weigh out and reason through his reaction.

      Please do not blame the victim. Kelly did NOT instigate the violence that was directed towards him. Kelly was innocent and he behaved and reacted in the best way he was able to at that moment.

      Kelly very well may have made a mistake and not said the the best thing possible in response to Ramos’ threats; however, considering that Kelly suffers from a SEVERE BRAIN DISORDER and he had just been threatened with great bodily harm, I am NOT at all surprised in the least by Kelly’s response.

      I also truly believe that Ramos, et al. had it in for Kelly that night. Therefore, I believe that no matter what Kelly would have said, it wouldn’t have mattered at all, or made any difference. Ramos would have just continued bullying and intimidating Kelly until he finally ran.

      I believe that Ramos WANTED Kelly to run, so that he would have an excuse to beat him up. Why else would Ramos escalate the situation to that level when he KNEW that Kelly had not done anything?

      Ramos had not seen Kelly commit any felony; they needed to make Kelly scared enough to fight, or to run, so that they could say that he was “resisting,” and have some pretense for “beating him up” (murder).

      I’m sure the defense will bring in a psychiatrist who specializes in severe mental illness who will testify to the fact that Kelly’s statements and behavior are very typical of someone who suffers from severe mental illness such as schizophrenia. And, Ramos KNEW that Kelly was mentally ill. I’m sure they knew that they could quite easily initmidate and provoke Kelly into running.

      Kelly suffered from PARANOID schizophrenia; he would already be fearful and distrustful. It wouldn’t take very much to frighten Kelly and to bring out the “flight or fight” response in Kelly.

    3. I agree with you completely.

      Kelly deserved to be put to death without due process for giving lip to the police officer.

      (For those who jump the gun, this is scarcasm.)

  49. it was said that ramos knew kelly, and of his disabilities.. yet he started it with the latex gloves, rather than to try to de-escalate things..

    it was also stated, kelly was having trouble understanding ramos’ orders..

  50. I can understand the gloves.

    No one wants to catch the disease of homelessness.

    Kelly probably offended Ramos’s personal sense of what he felt a human being is.

    Kelly was killed, IMHO, for being homeless and Ramos thinking he could do anything he wanted to something he considered not human.

    But no officer has the right to beat a citizen to death because of what he says.

  51. hopefully the jury will have some knowledge of schitophrenia (sp)?

    in my eyes ramos just came across as a bully,
    with no professionalism at all. really trying to terrify kelly. that would have terrified anyone i think..

  52. About the trouble understanding, I’ll leave that one alone. I’ll wind up sounding like I’m on THEIR side, which I’m not!

    Plus I’m going to bed so goodnight.

  53. There is just no way to defend it. None whatsoever.

    Ramos: “See my fists?”
    Kelly: “Yeah, what about them?”
    Ramos: “These fists are about to fuck you up.”

    How in the world do you defend that? There is no way a sane person can. The DA also knew that Ramos obviously set Kelly up. He said very clearly that Ramos knew the other officers were going to help him when he called for back up, and that Kelly was going to get hurt – badly. Those were the DA’s EXACT words. He put into words what everyone knew all along. That cops routinely believe that they can beat people up, and get away with anything, by simply claiming someone is “resisting arrest” and if they REALLY want to get someone beat up (or killed), they just have to call for backup.

    And even the DA has now said that.

  54. The other four cops from the Fullerton Goon Squad can pass GO and collect $200! You see there is so much corruption going on in that city the Fed’s should just do a sweep and confiscate computer hard drives and Email messages and book accounting activity between the city and real-estate developers and the police Dept and the Police Association. One big corrupt network! A big can of worms!

  55. im sorry to tell all of you this but an orange county jury will not convict police officers, you who live in the OC have created the cess pool that allows officers to believe they are above the law. once again the blood of KT is on all of our hands . we choose to support the police at all cost . this is the police force you wanted and its the police you will get until you decide to hold police officers to the standard as others charged in orange county . 25k bail is a joke.

  56. Does anyone know the story behind the original phone call?

    I’ve seen people mention the Slide Bar in Fullerton and that it was alleged that the management didn’t like Kelly Thomas thus the phone call.

    The phone logs shown on this website did not contain any phone calls pertaining to suspected vehicle burglary near there.

    It’s weird that KFI is not inquiring into this issue involving the Slide Bar. Apparently, they have business ties with that establishment. In 2009, KFI (Ken and John) hosted an anti-taxation protest at the Slide Bar. Surely they could ask someone they know.

    Check this link out:
    http://goo.gl/ImLca

    “Meet Naomi.

    She was our waitress at The Slide Bar this afternoon. Her bar was hosting a rally for 640 KFI’s Tax Revolt 2009. She was super friendly and very busy. She was nice enough to let us sit at one of the reserved tables on the patio and made sure we enjoyed our meal.”

  57. Actually, I have heard John and Ken specifically mention the Slidebar at least a couple of times, and how a lot of people have speculated that the call came from there. They didn’t mention Jeremy Popoff by name, but I have heard them bring up the Slidebar. I don’t always agree with John and Ken, but one thing I really respect them for is that they don’t kiss up to anyone. They go after EVERYONE. They speak their minds.

    And in fact, here is a really funny little parallel with this blog. Today, John and Ken read an idiotic email they got from someone who is a retired LAPD cop. This person actually attacked Ron Thomas, saying they are “sick of him” and how “he didn’t take care of his son, and how he was just looking for money, blah blah.” John and Ken ripped this person a new one and even threatened to say their name live over the air, to humiliate them. That’s how bad the email was.

    But here’s the funny thing…the comments and tone in the email sounded a LOT like one of the trolls we know very well here. Who is one of the biggest trolls who have been making personal attacks against Ron Thomas and trying to say that he didn’t take care of his son, etc??….(drum roll)….Jaynbound.

    So now jaynbound is trying to email John and Ken with idiotic statements like that? Not smart.

    And oh yeah…whatever happened to “Excited Delirium” ???

    I don’t seem to remember the DA saying that was the cause of death. I think he said that the mechanical crushing of the thorax was the cause of death, with the head and facial injuries contributing to it.

    Where is your Excited Delirium now, jaynbound?

  58. Mike @ Here :
    Agreed. The situation begs the question if after seeing the video why did the upper management brass give them ALL a pass? Really? It takes 6 weeks to put these out of control psychopaths on leave? The one and only reason the were put on leave is because their bullshit cover up got found out!!! Condoning this kind behavior is horrific and then a mass cover up ensues when found out? The Federal Officials are going to have a hay day with this one. Its obvious that Sellers,Goodrich and the Fullerton city leaders are all in on this and want the business as usual days to return but in light of the inaction of both the FPD and city’s bumbling council members who are attempting to cling to power it’s just not going to happen,the Feds have taken notice of just how messed up shit has become in Fullerton,Ca. Filing false police reports the match the video ought to be interesting to see but moreover what is on the video and who was doing what ought to be even more interesting. I have a feeling the GOBC “Good Ole Boys Club” days are numbered. It’s pretty F’ed up that the city council and the FPD have been acting as they have…recalling the city council members who are obviously outdated relics of a by gone era with self-serving agendas is a start,jailing them for their participation in this mass cover up will come,trust and believe in that.

    Of course the upper brass has access to the same evidence as D A and more that they were able to hide. Yet, they are waiting for this to go away. They all viewed the video tape and the AUDIO that contained the detailed description by RAMOS’ as he murdered Thomas Kelly. Diabolical that these six were allowed to listen, view and frame their reports at the direction of the upper cops and probably the union bosses and their lawyers. The D A dont’t see this as criminal conspiracy. What a cover up.

  59. Ronald Monerief Jr. :
    Does anyone know the story behind the original phone call?
    I’ve seen people mention the Slide Bar in Fullerton and that it was alleged that the management didn’t like Kelly Thomas thus the phone call.
    The phone logs shown on this website did not contain any phone calls pertaining to suspected vehicle burglary near there.
    It’s weird that KFI is not inquiring into this issue involving the Slide Bar. Apparently, they have business ties with that establishment. In 2009, KFI (Ken and John) hosted an anti-taxation protest at the Slide Bar. Surely they could ask someone they know.
    Check this link out:
    http://goo.gl/ImLca
    “Meet Naomi.
    She was our waitress at The Slide Bar this afternoon. Her bar was hosting a rally for 640 KFI’s Tax Revolt 2009. She was super friendly and very busy. She was nice enough to let us sit at one of the reserved tables on the patio and made sure we enjoyed our meal.”

    WE ALL HAVE OUR PRICE.

  60. Sisto Maximo :
    The other four cops from the Fullerton Goon Squad can pass GO and collect $200! You see there is so much corruption going on in that city the Fed’s should just do a sweep and confiscate computer hard drives and Email messages and book accounting activity between the city and real-estate developers and the police Dept and the Police Association. One big corrupt network! A big can of worms!

    THIS AINT’ CHANGING.

  61. still love fullerton :it was said that ramos knew kelly, and of his disabilities.. yet he started it with the latex gloves, rather than to try to de-escalate things..
    it was also stated, kelly was having trouble understanding ramos’ orders..

    My understanding from the description of the encounter, is that there was not anything to de-escalate. KT was not being resistant or aggressive. In fact, it looks like Ramos worked very hard–apparently verbally harrassing and bullying KT for 16 minutes–to try and get KT to react and resist. He eventually did become scared and ran. The severity and brutality of the beating he received after that only proves that he had good reason to be afraid and to run. The fact that he was antagonized into resisting–and notice his “resisting” was not to become belligerant or aggressive but to run away, which is a completely nonthreatening action–is what makes them all so culpable. I still thing the entire scenario seems well orchestrated and that this is a technique some or all of these officers have used before. Antagonize someone until the react, and then beat them for “resisting arrest.

  62. Chris :
    There is just no way to defend it. None whatsoever.
    Ramos: “See my fists?”
    Kelly: “Yeah, what about them?”
    Ramos: “These fists are about to fuck you up.”
    How in the world do you defend that? There is no way a sane person can. The DA also knew that Ramos obviously set Kelly up. He said very clearly that Ramos knew the other officers were going to help him when he called for back up, and that Kelly was going to get hurt – badly. Those were the DA’s EXACT words. He put into words what everyone knew all along. That cops routinely believe that they can beat people up, and get away with anything, by simply claiming someone is “resisting arrest” and if they REALLY want to get someone beat up (or killed), they just have to call for backup.
    And even the DA has now said that.

    THE ANIMALS STOOD BY AND ALLOWED THIS MAN TO BE MURDERED. THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND LOOSE EVERYTHING, BUT THE COVER UP WILL CONTINUE. THE COPS ARE HIDING ALL THESE HEINOUS CRIMES. THE ENTIRE ENTERPRISE NEEDS TO BE DISMANTLED AND HAVE A FORENSIC DETAILED EXAMINATION OF ALL VIDEO CAMS AND AUDIO TAPES, ALSO, HIDDEN FILES. BUT IT WON’T HAPPEN.

  63. My Username Rocks :After having read the complete exchange between Ramos and Thomas just now, I definitely see why Ramos lost his temper.
    Ramos’ actions were bullshit, make no mistake about that. But Kelly definitely came across as lippy, especially when directly challenging Ramos by saying, “Start punching, dude” after Ramos had just threatened him.
    Believe me when I say I grieve for Kelly. His death sickened me AND I want all cover-up cops in jail. But if reading the conversation can make me see things in a slightly different light, what do you think a jury itching to acquit will do?

    I felt that this exclamation by Kelly “Start punching, dude!” was the most trajic and sad statements of the entire ordeal, not excluding his plea for help to his dad. It is as if he had resigned himself to what was about to happen, you know kinda as if he is thinking, what else are you going to take from me….sometimes when your alone and confronted by a hopeless situation day after day, one might tend just to turn themselves over to fate…that is what I got from that exchange, but perhaps it was some small act of defiance in the face of overwhelming odds. I think for my own sake, I would prefer if that was the case…God bless you Kelly, in your name justice will be done!

  64. Fullertons, punishment by death is a harsh sentence for being “lippy” to a police officer. Especially if the police officer approached you and was “lippy” and antagonistic to you first. I think you should consider looking at how you enforce the laws there. Where I come from, it is not even illegal to be “lippy” to a police officer, let alone get arrested for it, beaten for it, or murdered for it. Just sayin.’

    1. And I thought if someone is being put to death, there are all kinds of rules and laws about it having to be as humane as possible? At least in the U.S. I don’t think they’re supposed to beat and torture someone to death.

  65. anon :

    still love fullerton :it was said that ramos knew kelly, and of his disabilities.. yet he started it with the latex gloves, rather than to try to de-escalate things..
    it was also stated, kelly was having trouble understanding ramos’ orders..

    My understanding from the description of the encounter, is that there was not anything to de-escalate. KT was not being resistant or aggressive. In fact, it looks like Ramos worked very hard–apparently verbally harrassing and bullying KT for 16 minutes–to try and get KT to react and resist. He eventually did become scared and ran. The severity and brutality of the beating he received after that only proves that he had good reason to be afraid and to run. The fact that he was antagonized into resisting–and notice his “resisting” was not to become belligerant or aggressive but to run away, which is a completely nonthreatening action–is what makes them all so culpable. I still thing the entire scenario seems well orchestrated and that this is a technique some or all of these officers have used before. Antagonize someone until the react, and then beat them for “resisting arrest.

    I STILL WANT THE D A TO EXPLAIN WHY AFTER THIS AUDIO OF THE INCIDENT WAS EXAMINED WHY ARE THE SIX ANIMALS WHO WERE ALLOWED TO CONSPIRE AFTER LISTENING TO THE TAPE STILL ON THE PAYROLL. THE BRASS ENCOURAGED THEM TO CONSPIRE AND GET THEIR REPORTS ON THE SAME PAGE. THEY HEARD RAMOS THREATENED AND MURDER KELLY. WHY ARE THEY STILL ON THE PAYROLL. THEIR POWER IS EVERYWHERE, THAT’S WHY. THEY OWN ALL THE POLITICIANS AND THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

    1. If their superiors behaved improperly after the incident with the writing of reports, it will come out at trial.

      Remember, only the OC DA has charged any of them.

      The Justice Department and Attorney General are still investigating.

      Nothing is finished yet.

    2. “THE SIX ANIMALS WHO WERE ALLOWED TO CONSPIRE AFTER LISTENING TO THE TAPE…”

      We think we know (from the KFI informant) that they watched the video while writing their reports, but if I don’t recall hearing anything about them listening to the DAR recording(s) and the it was Ramos’ own DAR that caught the threat he made to Thomas upon which the DA’s entire case is built.

      It’s lucky for justice that Ramos’ DAR recording of his threat ‘these fists are getting ready to fuck you up’ survived for the DA to uncover.

  66. nomad :

    My Username Rocks :After having read the complete exchange between Ramos and Thomas just now, I definitely see why Ramos lost his temper.
    Ramos’ actions were bullshit, make no mistake about that. But Kelly definitely came across as lippy, especially when directly challenging Ramos by saying, “Start punching, dude” after Ramos had just threatened him.
    Believe me when I say I grieve for Kelly. His death sickened me AND I want all cover-up cops in jail. But if reading the conversation can make me see things in a slightly different light, what do you think a jury itching to acquit will do?

    I felt that this exclamation by Kelly “Start punching, dude!” was the most trajic and sad statements of the entire ordeal, not excluding his plea for help to his dad. It is as if he had resigned himself to what was about to happen, you know kinda as if he is thinking, what else are you going to take from me….sometimes when your alone and confronted by a hopeless situation day after day, one might tend just to turn themselves over to fate…that is what I got from that exchange, but perhaps it was some small act of defiance in the face of overwhelming odds. I think for my own sake, I would prefer if that was the case…God bless you Kelly, in your name justice will be done!

    you just brought me to tears… how could they do that

    I have not listened to or had the emotional courage to listen to audio or read transcripts.. it is too sickening and vile and repulsive

    A POX ON ALL OF THEIR HOUSES… how coudl they do that… and then let them put badges on and four of them go free ..

  67. VR :
    Are the Feds on this yet?

    What is gonna happen when the feds don’t do shit?

    The only govt employee I think needs to speak to FPD HQ is named John Rambo

    or maybe the pied piper

    or anything that removes all of them

    They seem like KKK or backwater hicks from the 50’s and 60’s who think they can get away with

    TORTURE
    MURDER

    Sex Assault – *cop who CONVENIENTLY turned off his DAR and fondled and whatever else AT LEAST 5 women

    ILLEGAL DETAINMENT for 5 months *Emmanuel who was “Oops – Mistakes happen” locked in jail for 5 months when the cop was so stupid he took the wrong guy to jail after watching the person pick out a different man in a lineup

    false arrests and battering *the guy whose father was killed by cops.. that was witnessing another abusive cop .. so the cop filed FALSE drunk charges against him and bashed his head into a wall

    beating and throwing on the ground innocent civilians who video them *Veth Mam

    there is more but it is ALL A WASTE OF TIME

  68. “Anon” I was also moved to tears, during the concert/food drive sat. I introduced myself to Mr. Thomas to express my sympathy and saw the pain in his eyes….

  69. What these officers did was wrong and all 6 should be held for their actions but I honestly blame the academy as well. John Barnett did say he did was he was trained to do, and I would have to agree with John. In the academy there were certain instructors that did train that way. When I asked of of the other instructors about the training he said that it is better when you are doing a pedestrian stop to start off gentle and then if the person gives you a hard time then you escaluate as needed but don’t start off screaming, shouting and being a jerk but he did say that there were certian instructors that did otherwise. I saw it first hand and there were two instructors that always told the recruits, “niceness was a sign of weakness! ” I even remember one time before an exam. The one instructor said remember, save the dog and shoot ever one else. I couldn’t believe what I heard. On the Learning Domain the right answers were what he said. However, these FPD guys took this incident to the extreme and this sort of incident goes on all the time and it isn’t until the camera video phones, youtube, facebook that the public is seeing them firsthand. Unless you have been in the academy and see how certain recruits get away with being heavy handed the general public will never understand. Many times guys like Manny are the first ones hired and are the staffs favorite recruits. In our class the cheaters and drunks were the first to be hired. They had all the answers to the test. We I told my friends at work about these guys having the answers to the LD’s no one really believed future police officers could do something like that. It wasn’t until Rio Hondo was closed down for cheating that people starting listening to what I experienced in the academy. I view bad police officers like bad priests. Get them out!!!

    1. I think this would be a great topic for FFF blog. I would be interested in knowing about the culture of police recruits.

    2. Sinshine, “In the academy there were certain instructors that did train that way.” I heard McKinley and Sellers both “taught” at the academy.

        1. Some of the recruits who cheated and lied have been booted out of some of the departments. There was a Sgt. would worked at Fullerton who was real involved in the city council. He was so corrupt. I think he died. The place was so corrupt!
          I was telling my co-workers about all the cheating going on and many couldn’t believe it. There was a female campus person who’s husband worked there as well and they stole all the exams. She never studied and passed with top scores. She was was of the first ones hired. The place was a joke. They made the recruits pay big bucks. Promising them all jobs and about 9 % were hired. The 2 directors back then were rubbing shoulders with Fullerton’s finest. Like I said the Kick A** officers were the first ones hired. ” Niceness is a sign of Weakness!” & “Its’ not cheating unless you get caught!” We brought the cheating up to the stafff and that was their reply.

    3. Very interesting.

      I would also like to know more about the culture of the training academy and its role in encouraging police brutality.

  70. Hey anonymous, I specifically said that my statement “I can understand why Ramos lost his temper” is how “some maggot defense attorner is going to present this to a jury.” This was before you went on your rant

    Brush up on your reading comprehension before you go around calling people “dumb fuck.”

    1. I specifically said that my statement “I can understand why Ramos lost his temper”

      And that is makes you a dumb fuck.

  71. EyeNeverSayNo :
    “THE SIX ANIMALS WHO WERE ALLOWED TO CONSPIRE AFTER LISTENING TO THE TAPE…”
    We think we know (from the KFI informant) that they watched the video while writing their reports, but if I don’t recall hearing anything about them listening to the DAR recording(s) and the it was Ramos’ own DAR that caught the threat he made to Thomas upon which the DA’s entire case is built.
    It’s lucky for justice that Ramos’ DAR recording of his threat ‘these fists are getting ready to fuck you up’ survived for the DA to uncover.

    I will do my best to speak you with civility because as much as I disagree with your acceptance of everything the DA does you do have a mind that thinks critically and can respond with intelligence …

    So, my question is

    Do you think any of the fullerton council members and top officials at FPD reviewed any of the tape before

    They let the cops remain on the streets with badges and guns and tasers?

    They made an offer to Ron Thomas of $900,00 (if true)

    — and—

    If they made an offer to Ron, now that the DA determined Kelly was indeed Murdered.. was their offer an attempt to cover up a Murder?

    Should any of the top officials who allowed all 6 to go back onto the street be also charged with anything?

    I respectfully await your honest reply

  72. MeYou :

    EyeNeverSayNo :
    “THE SIX ANIMALS WHO WERE ALLOWED TO CONSPIRE AFTER LISTENING TO THE TAPE…”
    We think we know (from the KFI informant) that they watched the video while writing their reports, but if I don’t recall hearing anything about them listening to the DAR recording(s) and the it was Ramos’ own DAR that caught the threat he made to Thomas upon which the DA’s entire case is built.
    It’s lucky for justice that Ramos’ DAR recording of his threat ‘these fists are getting ready to fuck you up’ survived for the DA to uncover.

    I will do my best to speak you with civility because as much as I disagree with your acceptance of everything the DA does you do have a mind that thinks critically and can respond with intelligence …
    So, my question is
    Do you think any of the fullerton council members and top officials at FPD reviewed any of the tape before
    They let the cops remain on the streets with badges and guns and tasers?
    They made an offer to Ron Thomas of $900,00 (if true)
    — and—
    If they made an offer to Ron, now that the DA determined Kelly was indeed Murdered.. was their offer an attempt to cover up a Murder?
    Should any of the top officials who allowed all 6 to go back onto the street be also charged with anything?
    I respectfully await your honest reply

    All the tapes existed because these animals have been abusing people for god knows how long.

    What number of city employees. cops and police lawyers have viewed the videos and listened to the audio recordings.
    We need answers.
    This cover up is a major widespread crminal cospiracy.
    The D A is afraid or on the payroll. All of the animals are guilty.
    THEY ARE WAITING FOR THIS TO LOOSE MOMENTUM AND THEY ARE GETTING FULL PAY. WHAT A DISGRACE. THE CORRUPT GESTAPO POLICE UNION HAS TO FORFEIT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS.

  73. Does nayone know any personnal information about Ramos & Cicinelli? Like are they married, divorced, kids, pets, etc., just courious. I know that Cicinelli lives in La Mirada, where does Ramos live?

    1. Cicinelli had a youtube channel where he uploaded the same video of a baby 3 or 4 times but I don’t know if it was his baby.

      Most of the other videos had random titles. Its obvious the guy suffered brain damage in 96.

    2. Heard Ramos and his wife split in the last couple of years. May have been some domestic violence involved, but cannot confirm that.

  74. T-Rack is no hero he only took the action that he did because of all of the attention that has been brought to this situation. We deserve to know the entire truth.

  75. This whole paid administrated leave issue should be easy to resolve, the internal investigation can be concluded with out regard to the legal issue. If the department finds any or all of those involved were acting outside of department policy then they can fire those and stop the pay, or they can make it publicly known that there actions were within the norm for there department and they stand behind those actions. They have the same evidence that the D A used to file charges and there only responsibilty is to say if those involved acted within policy or not. Mabey its time to put some pressure on the new acting chief!

  76. Why were the other officers cleared of any wrong doing? Witnessess said they too helped! Why are they only charging Ramos with 2nd Degree Murder? He made his intent up front. This is so wrong! Doesn’t matter what side of the law they are on. They intentionally killed another human being.

    1. They weren’t cleared. They just weren’t charged as of yet. The DA said charges could come up later either through his office or any of the other agencies investigating as information and/or new evidence comes in.

  77. Was the two officers charged to appease the public? All these officers were in on it according to the video tapes of the witnesses. They should be charged with 1st degree murder as the intent was there and stated. What does f— someone up mean? It isn’t a good proclaimation.

  78. Those involved in the cover-up should enjoy their temporary freedom. The FEDS will take their time, put all the sorry pieces together and make sure everyone responsible gets their due JUSTICE. I wish for this band of criminals not to get a moment’s peace of mind at the thought that a dark cell awaits them in the not-too-distant future.

    Really, the only way out is the truth. Come clean now and perhaps you will be able to make a deal. Any action other than that will only serve to dig your own hole deeper still. Get out now while you still can.

  79. I cannot believe the absurdity of some people here. A MAN IS DEAD AT THE HANDS & WEIGHT OF AT THE MINIMUM 2 GROSSLY ENLARGED OFFICERS! Wake up people! Even if Kelly had answered Vomitous with “Go ahead and beat me to death, pig”, Vomitous is still in violation of the law and must be held accountable for his horrific actions that day. Ramos is NOT a good and/or nice guy who was simply pushed too far by this ONE meeting with Mr. Thomas. He wanted someone dead and said so directly into the face of the man he MURDERED that night. I seriously doubt these 2 businesses telling their tales of woe on how Kelly was harassing & chasing away customers and scaring bar managers. Please prove me wrong shop owners. Show me the valid authentic reports from the numerous times you called police to have him removed from your premises. I’d have given Kelly a ride to Steamers that day I offered him a soda. I’d have shared a table with him as well. Unfortunately I believe he was more afraid of me than most think I should have been afraid of him. He didn’t scare me. You people attempting to exonerate the Fullerton 6 of any wrong doing, claiming they were “just doing their jobs”, scare me. You’re an angry bunch and I hope I never have the displeasure of meeting you face to face. You all disgust me.

    1. Not all of us are ‘just angry’. Most of us are more shocked and appalled.

      Aside from being outraged everyone is pushing and working for due process.

      Due process is slow. It has to be. People who see the injustices being done and are emotionally repelled by what was done, want everything to be done very carefully, so there are no loopholes when finished.

      Justice in this case is not being delayed or denied to anyone. It’s moving along as it should. Yes. It is aggravatingly slow, but it is moving forward.

      As long as everyone keeps making noise, for justice and due process, it won’t and can’t be pushed under the rug.

      Not everyone on these blogs likes everyone else, but whichever side you’re on, you want justice.
      It only comes from due process……and letting eveyone put their two cents in.

      If I was Kelly, or if I was one of the charged police officers, or one of those still to be charged since we don’t know how all the investigations will turn out, I would want my perceived enemy to get every ounce of due process available. If I were being charged, I’d want my rights upheld, guilty or not.

      Lynch parties are passe’, messy too.

          1. They were meant for those who believe Mr. Thomas asked for this is and is directly responsible for setting off these events which led to his beating and ultimate demise. Are you one of those people then? Is that what you are attesting to here? Are you saying you believe Ramos, Cicinelli and the other 4 are without guilt and the first 2 wrongly charged? Perhaps then it was I who sadly read you incorrectly and if so, I do not apologize. I stand by what I previously stated.

  80. Fullerton citizens need public accountability from the FPD. With the past events, (Kelly’s beating/death, Mayor not knowing any better, Seller’s Leave of absence,Councilmen inaction, Police on duty harrasing protesters with tickets etc…) the citizen of Fullerton need to get the power back. If the POLICE do NOT SERVE and PROTECT like they should, totally clean house. Instead of working their way into public trust, each day the police are acting like a mafia…plotting for more incidents to make themselves powerful above the people whom they serve. It is plain simple DISCRETION…the ability to know what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.
    To be in the Police force is a vocation and a privelege….i quess that has changed. I see more police brutality than I see goodness in this state. Back in my hometown, the police do outreach programs to serve the community. I know they maybe 1-10 ratio of good cop against bad cop but I can see the new Acting Chief in that rare count. I hope he will be strong to beat the bad cops above him and below him and start WHAT is RIGHT.

  81. Maria :
    I cannot believe the absurdity of some people here. A MAN IS DEAD AT THE HANDS & WEIGHT OF AT THE MINIMUM 2 GROSSLY ENLARGED OFFICERS! Wake up people! Even if Kelly had answered Vomitous with “Go ahead and beat me to death, pig”, Vomitous is still in violation of the law and must be held accountable for his horrific actions that day. Ramos is NOT a good and/or nice guy who was simply pushed too far by this ONE meeting with Mr. Thomas. He wanted someone dead and said so directly into the face of the man he MURDERED that night. I seriously doubt these 2 businesses telling their tales of woe on how Kelly was harassing & chasing away customers and scaring bar managers. Please prove me wrong shop owners. Show me the valid authentic reports from the numerous times you called police to have him removed from your premises. I’d have given Kelly a ride to Steamers that day I offered him a soda. I’d have shared a table with him as well. Unfortunately I believe he was more afraid of me than most think I should have been afraid of him. He didn’t scare me. You people attempting to exonerate the Fullerton 6 of any wrong doing, claiming they were “just doing their jobs”, scare me. You’re an angry bunch and I hope I never have the displeasure of meeting you face to face. You all disgust me.

    Maria well said. These monsters are brutal. Be careful. I wonder if the animal bastards are tracking our IP ADDRESSES with the intent of stalking us and silence us. I may start postin from starbucks.

    1. Naw. I don’t see anyone of them doing any stalking.

      They’re going to be too busy for too long just watching their a**es.

      Those that are guilty (proven in court or not), will be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.

      1. And I hope they are. Just adds more charges against them…mostly federal. NO ONE will take away my freedom of speech.

        Ramos is already sitting in a cell getting used to where he will be for the next 15 years of his life…if they let him live that long. He better hope the prison continues giving him the special privilege of being out of the reach of general pop.

  82. Re :
    Why were the other officers cleared of any wrong doing? Witnessess said they too helped! Why are they only charging Ramos with 2nd Degree Murder? He made his intent up front. This is so wrong! Doesn’t matter what side of the law they are on. They intentionally killed another human being.

    What do you think. The whole system is corrupt.

    1. the da left the door open to prosecute the other 4, there is stuff going on behind the scenes we don’t yet know about.

    2. Naw. Not corrupt, just glacially slow.

      The OC DA only investigated violations of State, County and City law.

      Federal law, little things like, say, Civil Rights violations, are still possible down the road a bit.

  83. There should be a law created in Kelly’s name where by if a law enforcement officer is convicted of a serious crime his direct superior should be named as an accomplice for allowing an environment where it could happen. Accountability

    1. maybe ron thomas could include something like this in kelly’s law. otherwise, that is what civil rights law suits are for. usually, a “monell” claim is filed for lack of training or supervision.

    2. Thats not accountability.

      Make that kind of law and you’ll find cities patrolled by motorcycle gangs and vigillanties.

      Anyone and everyone could find themselves on the wrong end of the big stick if that happens.

  84. CAL. PEN. CODE § 182 : California Code – Section 182
    Search CAL. PEN. CODE § 182 : California Code – Section 182
    Search by Keyword or Citation
    (a)If two or more persons conspire:

    (1)To commit any crime.

    (2)Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime.

    (3)Falsely to move or maintain any suit, action, or proceeding.

    (4)To cheat and defraud any person of any property, by any means which are in themselves criminal, or to obtain money or property by false pretenses or by false promises with fraudulent intent not to perform those promises.

    (5)To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public morals, or to pervert or obstruct justice, or the due administration of the laws.

    (6)To commit any crime against the person of the President or Vice President of the United States, the Governor of any state or territory, any United States justice or judge, or the secretary of any of the executive departments of the United States.

    They are punishable as follows:

    When they conspire to commit any crime against the person of any official specified in paragraph (6), they are guilty of a felony and are punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for five, seven, or nine years.

    When they conspire to commit any other felony, they shall be punishable in the same manner and to the same extent as is provided for the punishment of that felony. If the felony is one for which different punishments are prescribed for different degrees, the jury or court which finds the defendant guilty thereof shall determine the degree of the felony the defendant conspired to commit. If the degree is not so determined, the punishment for conspiracy to commit the felony shall be that prescribed for the lesser degree, except in the case of conspiracy to commit murder, in which case the punishment shall be that prescribed for murder in the first degree.

    If the felony is conspiracy to commit two or more felonies which have different punishments and the commission of those felonies constitute but one offense of conspiracy, the penalty shall be that prescribed for the felony which has the greater maximum term.

    When they conspire to do an act described in paragraph (4), they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

    When they conspire to do any of the other acts described in this section, they shall be punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison, or by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine. When they receive a felony conviction for conspiring to commit identity theft, as defined in Section 530.5, the court may impose a fine of up to twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000).

    All cases of conspiracy may be prosecuted and tried in the superior court of any county in which any overt act tending to effect the conspiracy shall be done.

    (b)Upon a trial for conspiracy, in a case where an overt act is necessary to constitute the offense, the defendant cannot be convicted unless one or more overt acts are expressly alleged in the indictment or information, nor unless one of the acts alleged is proved; but other overt acts not alleged may be given in evidence.

  85. Anonymous II :
    He’s right unfortunately.
    The supreme court ruled numerous times that the police have no duty to protect individuals.
    I believe the last case they rule on was in 2005
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

    This type of case law does not protect a cop for his inaction during the commission of a crime committed in his presence.

    If a police agency wishes to claim such a protection then they should NOT make contact with the parties involved.

    You can’t do a half ass job, allow your peers to do what they did, then claim this as a protection. To believe that is simply absurd.

    Simply ignore the problem, make no contact with those involved, then one can make this argument and see where it goes.

    Do some research and you will find that the CHP has been held liable numerous times for stopping to assist a motorist, leaving then something happens to them, robbed, killed, struck by a passing car etc.

    The CHP attempted to make a similiar defense, the courts said no, YOU cannot get involved with something or someone walk away without following through and claim immunity later.

    When cops create a relationship with a citizen by contacting them, then they are expected to fullfill their obligations under the law and their department policies.

    If you call the cops and they don’t show up, then they might be able to offer this case law as a defense to a civil suit.

  86. Maria :They were meant for those who believe Mr. Thomas asked for this is and is directly responsible for setting off these events which led to his beating and ultimate demise. Are you one of those people then? Is that what you are attesting to here? Are you saying you believe Ramos, Cicinelli and the other 4 are without guilt and the first 2 wrongly charged? Perhaps then it was I who sadly read you incorrectly and if so, I do not apologize. I stand by what I previously stated.

    To Maria,

    Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    I’m not a judge or vigilante.

    What I think is not admissable. I’m not presenting the evidence in court.

    What is important is that the process be overseen to and confirmed to be evenhanded and follows due process.

    1. Then don’t attempt to squash my right or anyone else’s right to have and voice opinions. I did not put words in your mouth. Evidently you missed the question marks asking you, not telling you your opinion.

      1. I missed where I tried to strip you of your right to speak or express yourself in one of my posts.

        Would you quote it please so I can reread it? <-(Not rethorical.)

        No one, especially me, has said or implied anywhere you don't have the right to be as disagreeable as you want to be, or that you should not speak out when the spirit of Kelly Thomas moves you to do so…..or for any other reason.

        I find most of what you say (excluding personal attacks.), to be passionate. Passion can be a good thing, but trying to disguise rethorical questions as ones you really want answers too is being disingenuious.

        But you knew that when you asked them in the way you did, didn't you? <- (Rethorical question. Don't bother answering unless you really want to.)

        I don't have to agree with what you say or the way you say or do anything, and I certainly don't have to submit myself to your free-flying inquistion style.

        Thats what your questions were, right? Don't bother answering (unless you want to.) I just borrowed your rethorical ?'s

        BUT…

        …move over on your soap box. I'll stand up there with you and defend your right to be obnoxious as you like to the death.

        (Would you like the sword or the bow and arrow? I can use either.)(For mutal defense, of course, against anyone who would strip you of your rights.)

        Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer one question for me. Why are you here? To rabble rouse or to seek justice for Kelly Thomas? <- (Rethorical question mark.)

        (I apologize to anyone else who may find this post offensive, but for cryin' out loud… I'm only human, too.)

        1. Me thinks you doth protest too much. WOW! All your reply compelled me to do was LOL at you. Thanks for dimestore psychological evaluation of my postings. It made for some wonderful dinner party entertainment for me & my colleagues.

  87. Dear Thomas; we know that you are still with us and your soul still wandering around Fullerton and crime scence all these months. Your bloodstain is still fresh.
    We are facing a tremendous challenges with all the corruptions from Fullerton City Hall, Police Dept. to Orange County District Office, powerful unions, beyond our imagination. They control all the evidences. Nobody stepping forward within Fullerton city officials, cops, and politicans. It is next to impossible tasks to convict these murders and its protectors.
    FFFF and your supporters are working hard to have a fair trials for you. We are just an ordinary citizens. Cops, sheriffs, politicans, judges, unions, and DA office are enterprise criminals with license. They protect each other.
    Death man cannot talk but your spirit can help us. You will never rest in peace until we bring fair justice. They are sickeningly immediate, as if that horrific morning were unfolding again right in front of you, and maybe if you could just scream loud enough, maybe you could do something. But you can’t, and neither could the people on the tape. we can best honor the dead by starting anew and victims of crimes must not stay silent.
    We need your guidance. Your painful death will not be wasted. Please do not let these murders to get away.

  88. If this doesn’t make you sick that they just beat him to death while laughing, and Kelly was calling out to Dad for help!
    Everyone of these Pigs need to Receive the Death Penalty! It gives one a whole new felling about ALL PIGS!

  89. “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”
    -Albert Einstein

  90. …and the original from 1770:

    When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.

    -Edmund Burke-

    (He was actually thinking about fighting the alcohol trade, but thats the same thing, right? (-: )

  91. Eight people died in the massacre, and a ninth was seriously wounded, in the worst mass killing in Orange County history. The Orange County District Attorney’s Office have provided few details about the shooting spree since a news conference Oct. 14 during which District Attorney Tony Rackauckas announced he would seek the death penalty against Scott Dekraai.

    What about Thomas Kelly and the 6 Invincible cops?
    What about lies and cover up from Fullerton City Hall and Police Dept.?

  92. Some interesting info and facts regarding what I heard from some whom stood by and watched an illegal assault of one of our fellow citizens… know your rights and exercise them to keep them.

    And in response to the Berkeley police saying that linking arms and resisting attempts to clear a space is an act of “violence”, reader David writes:

    It is every citizen’s duty to resist false arrest

    There is no such crime as “resisting arrest.” This is a fictitious crime dreamed up by law enforcement to accuse a citizen of a crime when they refuse to surrender to the illegal demands of the police.

    The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on numerous occasions that resisting a false arrest is not merely a citizen’s right, but his duty! In fact, the Supreme Court has gone so far as to rule that if a law enforcement officer is killed as a result of actions stemming from a citizen’s attempts to defend themselves against a false arrest, it is the fault of the officer, not the citizen.

    Here’s a short collection of relevant court rulings on false arrest and resisting arrest:

    “When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

    “These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

    “An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

    “Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

    Do individuals have the right to come to the aid of another citizens being falsely arrested? You bet they do. As another court case ruled:

    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

    And on the issue of actually killing an arresting officer in self defense:

    “Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer’s life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529.

    I believe that violence discredits the entire protest movement. I therefore hope that the protesters remain peaceful, even when confronted with unlawful arrests. However, as David points out, the police have no right to make unlawful arrests in the first place.

    1. Couldn’t agree more.

      The problem is that most of these people believe they are not committing a crime. In the cases where they actually are, they could blur the difference between an illegal arrest and an legal arrest, as well as intervening to assist someone in an illegal arrest. This could cause major issue to the people involved, as well as the cops. When an order to disperse is given, the police feel they have a crime committed and are giving an order. Failure to disperse and leave means at that time they are subject to arrest. Do what you want at that time but the actions you choose dictate how it goes from there. Don’t you agree at that moment? Lawsuits, etc could come later if they can prove otherwise but in terms of arrests, injuries, death, etc it’s far too late once they make that decision to resist.

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