R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Here are some wonderful thoughts by frequent commenter “Jt” who reacts to a typical threatening comment made by a self-professed law enforcement employee. This employee seems to think he is entitled to unconditional love and respect from his employer (us) and that lack of said respect may very well result in what can only be construed as the same sort of physical rebuke visited upon Kelly Thomas by the FPD.

Understanding this attitude is important to understanding the mentality of the bad cop, a world-view enabled by pliant politicians controlled by aggressive police unions.

Jt responds:

You’ve said a lot of stuff on this board, a lot of it true, some false, some thought-provoking, some reasonable, some not. I thank you because you have helped me understand the mindset of contemporary police officers in this region, and that has been truly valuable.

There is one thing in your post though I really want to address. This is for me the essential issue here. it is the issue of whether the police deserve or should feel as if they require citizens to be “respectful”, and what the consequences should be if they are not.

For me, this is what this case, and the Mam, Quinonez and other soon-to-be known cases of FPD abuse are all about.

Let me just put this out there. Disrespect of a LEO is not itself a crime. It is NEVER a valid excuse for any of the following: assault, false arrest, perjury, murder.

But that is what we are seeing in case after case. Officers who feel “disrespected” fly off the handle, lose it, manhandle the citizenry, arrest them on bogus charges, and commit perjury about these cases.

Look at the Quinonez case. Dude’s Dad was killed by police. Clearly he has issues with them because of that. Walks by Kenton Hampton, sees him busting somebody, says something about “cops killed my dad.” Hampton sees this as “disrespect”, smacks him into a wall and arrests him for being drunk in public despite Quinonez having 0.00 blood alcohol level.

No. This will not stand. We have the right to disrespect each other without being beaten or falsely arrested for it. You can disrespect me, and I can disrespect you. Being a cop doesn’t make you special, and it doesn’t entitle you to respectful treatment from every person at all times. If I am clearly threatening bodily harm to you during an encounter, by all means use force if necessary to subdue me and take me in (though kindly stop when I am subdued rather than just beating me for the fun of it, but that’s a separate issue). If I am rather just mouthy, disrespectful, and contempuous of your authority, you know what? Too bad. That is not a crime.

It is a new era. The citizenry is increasingly well-informed, well armed with cameras and ready to use them, and ready to disseminate information about bad policing at a moment’s notice. We will exchange information, we will show up at City council, we wil publicize you, and we will call for investigations of EACH AND EVERY incident of police brutality or misconduct we witness or hear about.

Being a cop is NOT like being in a gang where you are entitled to respect. Being a cop means you work for the citizenry. They have every right in the world to disrespect you. A lot more disrespect is coming your way soon. The cop mentality of “don’t you dare disrespect me” is a relic of the past which will only lead to lawsuits and citizen revolts ala Fullerton. And we’re not even close to being done with this department yet.

Cops – do not think that the public must fear and respect you. Do your job, do it politely and professionally, and understand that RESPECT IS EARNED. If you can maintain a calm and professional aspect even as I flip you off, you may actually earn that respect.

There will come a day when I can walk right up to a cop and politely tell him to fuck off and he will know that there is absolutely nothing he can or should do about it. That I am just expressing my first amendment rights, and those rights are far more important than his fragile ego or sense of self-worth related to his position of power and authority.

Any cop who does not understand this will be forced out of public service. The citizenry will no longer tolerate public servants who think they exist on some higher strata above the citizenry. If you cannot deal with this Reality, you must find a line of work in which you do not profess to “protect and serve.” “Protecting and serving” require humility and an ability to endure the disrespect of those for whom you serve.

 

268 Replies to “R-E-S-P-E-C-T”

  1. Bravo! I’m really tired of having to endure the blather of “OUR MEN IN BLUE THAT PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE FOR US EVERY DAY” bs spouted in every “news” article about the subject.

    I guess writing tickets for mundane (and often broken) reasons to generate revenue and coming up with inventive new ways to not report crimes as crimes and leave matters unsolved can be rather dangerous or something, especially when punctuated by random bouts of being complete assholes and otherwise terrorizing their employers (us, the citizens) is kind of dangerous I guess, but I think the drive to Culver City I take every morning is just as, if not more dangerous, and I don’t have a nifty tricked out car with a bunch of shielding on it.

    1. …In fact if there’s anything this Kelly Thomas affair taught me, it’s that being an average citizen out and about in DTF is a much more dangerous affair than being the one in uniform.

      I’m female, I’m young, I’m gay… and basically scared shitless of some asshole in a uniform taking an exception and/or advantage of any combination of those factors.

      1. …that may be your reality, however in my world, if my wife decides to shout at me that I’m “a fucking asshole”, and l backhand her for doing so, I’d not only everyone I knows respect, I’d also find myself in in front of a judge trying to explain why someone calling me a name gave me justification to assault them…just saying ; )

  2. Really??? So what happenes when a cop tells you to “fuck off” you cry and whine file complaints! what gives you the right to disrespect them just as much as they should not disrespect you! You feel that just because they are in uniform you own them, have the right to verbally abuse them! Really? The bottom line is JT, treat people the way you want to be treated!

    1. Anybody even a cop is entitled to tell me to fuck off, generally I’ll laugh it off. But what I won’t do to anybody is slam them into a wall, beat them to death, arrest them falsely, write false police reports, lie, etc. etc. etc.
      Ignore it, get a sense of humor and some people skills. As JT said respect is earned, you respect me I more than likely can guarantee I’ll respect you.

      1. A cop is not allowed to tell you to fuck off. You know that so don’t say that.

        True. I’m with ya on that one.

        That must be why I have humor and people skills. As I said, and now you have said, it happens many times and nothing has occurred. I’ve even taken a picture with a guy that told me to fuck off. Why not? All in humor. He apologized after he met me but that’s another story.

        1. we should have more police candidates or recruits who are slow to anger and be able to not perceive people’s verbal attacks and attitudes towards LEOs personally. THAT’S deserving of respect. Why? That just shows these cops have a higher standard of character, being able to take the high ground and not be “offended” so easily due to hurt ego. To be a cop, imo, you need to first be an exemplary citizen in every way and be above reproach. Like the officer said, he used humor, treat these remarks as such, merely remarks. This animosity between the public and Law Enforcement Agencies would be reduced substantially. My ex’s dad is a prime example also, working out of Boise, very charismatic, polite, and gentle when approaching the public (even to questionable individuals). That doesn’t mean he is scared to use aggression to subdue the physically combative suspects but he understands what how to approach people in different circumstances. Anyway, I still support law enforcement and still would like to think the majority of the officers are decent professionals. Call me naive but I think the reason why most departments have such a high standard in hiring new recruits (Costa Mesa, Newport Beach, Irvine, Laguna..) is so they can weed out unfit candidates.
          I do hope people don’t automatically prejudice and discriminate against cops because these misperceptions aren’t helpful nor true. However, officers shouldn’t feel entitled to have the public be polite and disrespectful.

        2. A cop is not allowed to tell you to fuck off.

          They can and will.

          Their favorite is “Fucking idiot!”. “Show me your fucking hands!”, “Get the fuck on the ground” and “Stop fucking resisting”. Many arent afraid to use racial slurs either.

    2. First of all who cares if someone tells you to “fuck off”, I know I don’t. But if someone does have a problem with a cop doing that, let’s not forget that these cops are on the job working for us. Would you walk around at work telling your bosses to fuck off? I doubt it.

      1. I for one don’t like it much at all when people tell me to fuck off.

        Of course it depends on how it’s said, everything connected to that word is contextual…

    3. First a cop is given alot of power over the average citizen, they are given a badge and a gun, there word holds more weight in a court of law. With this they should have a higher sence of responsibility and be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. If a cop cannot take some verbal abuse without giving back then they are not living up to that higher standard. If I were to witness a citizen verbaly disrespecting an officer and that officer acted in a profesinal and respectfull manner without retaliation I would be left with a sence of pride and respect for the police, but if the officer retailied against the citzen verbaly then that officer is no better then the person who disrespected him or her and has no higher standard and should not be in a position that requires that exact higher standard.

          1. Reality Is is NOT humorous; he is laughable, and pathetic and he is a narcissistic sociopath.

            And, your suggestion that he mentor fresh cops, is equally as laughable. Go back several weeks and read all of his comments. You’ll see.

    4. If I remember right, Witnesses recalled minutes afte ont the bus, that Kelly was minding his own business while siiting on a bench.

      I guess Ramos and Jay were treating Kelly how they want to be treated.

      Looks like they snared themselves in their own trap.

  3. Tony, I didn’t see the conversation that led to this…but I can infer that the other poster who is claiming to be a cop is the troll known as “Reality Is.”

    We have been having problems with this guy for quite a while now. He has also been posting under multiple different screen names. I know you are aware of this. As the Admin, can you finally out him and please list the other screen names he has been using, along with his IP address?

    Also, as I’m sure you have noticed, he has done nothing but clog the message boards with incendiary remarks in an effort to derail the entire blog discussions. Please make a serious consideration about permanently blocking him with an IP ban.

    1. Chris (is this Chris Thompson?) I disagree on Reality Is. Although I always appreciate cogent thinkers who agree with me, on blogs I seek out those who disagree with any degree of rationality.

      What is more valuable on this blog than the opinion of those who are cops who would defend the treatment of Kelly Thomas or acknowledge that it can happen but most cops would not do it or acknowledge that it is status quo but that there is a standard of good policing that is not being met?

      These posts are real intelligence, if you have the disposition to learn and progress with the knowledge.

      Remember, it was Reality Is who introduced us to Gordon Graham. That was a diamond.

  4. Well said, just what I think but said better than I could have said it.
    We also need to get rid of police unions to get rid of another thing that they think makes them special. And institute a citizens review board, to investigate any cop that uses violence or a weapon. I’d say any time a cop raises his/her voice, but that’s over the top.
    Also contact our state legislators and get a law passed that specifically allows video/audio/still photo recording of all public employees on the job, call it Kelly’s Law.

    1. re: my suggestion that we contact the legislature and have a law passed that specifically allows audio, video and photographic recording of all public employees… I found the following on line take a look:

      California

      It is a crime in California to intercept or eavesdrop upon any confidential communication, including a telephone call or wire communication, without the consent of all parties. Cal. Penal Code §§ 631, 632. It is also a crime to disclose information obtained from eavesdropping. However, an individual can still be convicted without disclosing information. Two appellate courts have held that there is no disclosure or publication requirement for violation of the Privacy Act by recording confidential communications without consent. Coulter v. Bank of America, 28 Cal. App. 4th 923 (Cal. Ct. App. 1994). Marich v. MGM/UA Telecommunications, Inc., 113 Cal. App. 4th 415 (Cal. Ct. App. 2003).

      Eavesdropping upon or recording a conversation, whether by telephone or face-to-face, when a person would reasonably expect their conversation to be confined to the parties present, carries the same penalty as intercepting telephone or wire communications. A California appellate court ruled that a network’s broadcast of a news report that used excerpts from secret recordings during two patient examinations violated the privacy rights of the physician, who had a reasonable expectation that his communications with his patients would be private and not recorded. Lieberman v. KCOP Television, Inc. 110 Cal. App. 4th 156 (Cal. Ct. App. 2003).

      But, conversations that occur at any public gathering where one could expect to be overheard, including any legislative, judicial or executive proceeding open to the public, are not covered by the statute. For example, when a television network used a hidden camera to videotape a conversation that took place at a business lunch meeting on a crowded outdoor patio of a public restaurant, the conduct did not violate the Penal Code’s prohibition against eavesdropping because it was not a “confidential communication.” Wilkins v. NBC, Inc., 71 Cal. App. 4th 1066 (Cal. Ct. App. 1999).

      However, an appellate court has ruled that using a hidden video camera in a private place does violate the statute. California v. Gibbons, 215 Cal. App. 3d 1204 (Cal. Ct. App. 1989). It is not a crime to take notes during a conversation or later summarize or disclose one’s recollection of a communication. People v. Wyrick, 77 Cal. App. 3d 903 (Cal. Ct. App. 1978).

      A first offense of eavesdropping is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500 and imprisonment for no more than one year. Subsequent offenses carry a maximum fine of $10,000 and jail sentence of up to one year. Intercepting, recording, and disclosing information each carries a separate penalty.

      Anyone injured by a violation of the laws against disclosure of telegraphic or telephonic messages can recover civil damages of $5,000 or three times actual damages, whichever is greater. Cal. Penal Code § 637.2(a). A civil action for invasion of privacy also may be brought against the person who committed the violation. Cal. Penal Code § 637.2.

      I understand thatt a Federal court said it’s ok, but that was not out here it was on the east coast. We need a law pertaing to Calif. to be safe. In the meantime if recoring a cop giving you a ticket, or whatever, tell him/them that they’re being recorded. Calif. is a two party state and both/all persons involved must agree or it’s illegal, with some exceptions. I forgot to get the link, but you can google it.

  5. Stand by everything as well. If you think you can disrespect a cop doing his job, then go for it. Shows the class of person there is on this blog. If you think everyday citizens in this state will stand by your side when they see the video of you dancing around telling the cop to fuck off for no reason, then keep doing it over and over, city by city. No one says you will be beat or injured, but keep in mind some of the laws in place when the cop asks you to back away or stop interfering in his investigation, if you happen to be doing that. Yes, arrests are very simple. Back on the street in 30 minutes max. If I have the elements of a crime for you as you tell me to fuck off, I will make the arrest and will gladly show the video in front of a jury and lay out the elements of the crime. If no crime and you had just walked up to me to get my reaction, I will laugh with you and drive away, as will most of us. Goes back to my saying a few months ago. If no one in this world talked shit to the cops, ran from the cops, resisted the cops, or didn’t get drunk, they would never have an issue with the cops. Yes, I know it’s your right but it’s also what causes the problems.

    You can rip on me all you want. It’s all good. All I’m doing is telling you how it is out there statewide, nationwide. Yes there are bad cops. Yes we need to find them and get them out. If they do bad, they need to be punished. But you wanting to disrespect a cop for no reason isn’t the best thing to teach people, teach the kids, and most of all, to avoid further problems. Yes, I’ve probably taken every person that has talked shit to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation. All legit. All recorded. All guilty. Yes, you may have it as your right, but no cop will ever think you have the right to disrespect them for no reason. Never. Even if you form your own FFFF Bushala police force. Some of the people here would be the cops. Even after you see what reality is out there on the streets, bar brawls, gang fights, shootings, etc. you will also see that you don’t deserve to be disrespected for no reason. Oh I know, you say you would love it. And yes, we are paid by taxes. But we don’t work for you, you don’t tell us what to do and how to do it, and you aren’t are bosses. REality sucks sometimes but the truth is the truth. I’m out there all the time. Have been for a long long time. Love the community. Love the citizens. There are some nut jobs out there and some dangerous people. There are some great people too. Ooops..I just described this blog too didn’t I? Yep. Community makeup is consistent no matter where you go.

    1. pro tip: the job of a cop isn’t to terrorize and murder their employers, the citizens

      so yes, as far as “disrespecting” is calling cops out on their bullshit, we are going to be disrespectful of people who demand respect constantly and act like complete shits to everyone they deem “beneath” them

    2. pro tip 2: the REALITY IS that the problem is the system AND “bad cops” read as “most cops”, thanks to the system

        1. You realize that being “good” 99% of the time doesn’t make one a “good cop” right?

          Most cops do terrible things or are complete assholes occasionally. They are bad cops. A good cop has respect for the citizens they allegedly serve and protect, not a sneering disrespect and sense of superiority to wherein they make assertions that people who don’t drop the red carpet for them are “showing their class”.

          1. Agree and disagree. 99% good and 1% mistake is probably better than most humans. Mistakes of the heart happen. Always will. As long as they don’t violate law, they can be dealt with and documented.

            No one is perfect in this world.

    3. “Reality” – first of all, for what it’s worth, I don’t see anything in your comment here that would merit anyone calling for you to be blocked from commenting, or having your IP address disclosed, etc. I haven’t read your previous comments, but what you are writing here comes across as a sincere attempt to reason with the other commenters on this blog.

      I agree with you that there is no justification for people to be gratuitously disrespectful of police officers. But it seemed to me that JT wasn’t saying that either. I think his point was that it is not a CRIME to be disrespectful of police officers. And I agree with that.

      It reminds me of the flag burning controversy. If we were prohibited from burning a flag, by law, it would undermine the very principles that make most of us unwilling to ever burn a flag. Like a flag, a police officer is a symbol of our government. If we outlaw the right to disrespect a police officer, we undermine the legitimacy of their authority – we suddenly take away one of the reasons we would never wish to disrespect a police officer.

      Another way of expressing this would be to compare the legitimate power of police to the illegitimate power of gangs. We may refrain from showing disrespect to a gang member because we are afraid of them. They have no legitimate authority, their authority is based on their potential for violence. We display outward respect and inward resentment at their propensity to commit violence. With a police officer, that position should be reversed – when upset or misguided, or for whatever reason, we may show disrespect for a police officer, but inwardly we know we are safe in this expression of disrespect, and our actual inward respect is increased each time we may indulge in an outward display of disrespect without suffering consequences – as we should not if we are a free people.

      Finally, the respect police officers deserve is undermined, in my opinion, by the fact they have become unionized. I think the power of labor unions, their solidarity, their ability to concentrate financial and political power to control or combat attempts at reform, improve efficiency, right-size the budget, control compensation costs – using our tax dollars – has no place in law enforcement.

      1. I saw it that’s why I said something. Whatever happens is ok with me.

        True. Not a crime.

        I agree. Well said.

        I disagree about the union part. Unions have been a part of policing for as long as I can remember. A large part of the union process is to protect from radical decisions by people that are against police and always will be. Just like any other job, policing is allowed to have a union represent them to insure fairness. Research all of the money cities throughout out the US have paid to cops for stepping all over their rights on purpose. Imagine what how many others would have done it if not for their rights in place by laws?

    4. So basically what your saying is if no one would go around exercising their rights, they would never have any problems with the cops. Who says tyranny isn’t the solution.

    5. I understand where you are coming from and can tell from your posting that you are passionate about your position. I respect that hands down.

      JT is just as passionate about his/her position and I believe deserves the same respect. That thoughtful position was layed out very eloquently.

      If you are a policeman as you say, you are right about many of your points. You can arrest me on the street, file whatever charges you want, ticket me, cost me job opportunities and financial duress. Hell, you probably can call for backup and whack me like Ramos did Kelly Thomas. But let me tell you, your badge and your authority will never compel me give you my respect. That, my friend, you have to EARN. Treat me respectfully if we should chance to meet on the street and I will voluntarily give it to you in return. But you will never drag it from me nor should I try to drag it from you.

      Your badge, firearm, taser, pepper spray or position will not force me to respect you, PERIOD.

      Let me offer this tou you Reality. I met 9c1copcar at the rally last week and I can tell you he is a standup guy. After talking to this guy for over an hour, I will tell you he was most assuredly a good sheriff deputy and a good Marine as well. He has made an offer to meet you and exchange views over friendly conversation. While he is somebody who doesn’t take abuse easily and can back it up, he is a gentleman first. Come down to the rally and approach him and have some peaceful conversation, American to American. He might get a better insight into your view and you might get a better insight into his. I believe he is in accoradance with JT. I know I am.

      Come down and talk man to man, earn that RESPECT that you most probably deserve. Do it and I for one will respect you. If not, well, I guess that is all I need to know about you.

      Respectfully Submitted……………

      1. “You can arrest me on the street, file whatever charges you want, ticket me, cost me job opportunities and financial duress.”

        Hey the Moron, I like your comments and appreciate your calm attitude, but he just stated in no unclear terms that he will do these things to you for no reason other than he feels disrespected. How in the world is this anything less that pure evil???

        1. Another lie. Lies on here don’t ever surprise me. I just get surprised them come so close after I just said something totally different. Stud mi Lee.

          1. Lies?

            Your quote, not mine: “Yes, I’ve probably taken every person that has talked shit to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation.”

            Black and white.

          2. Feel free to correct me at any time. “Liar liar” isn’t going to convince me.

            “Stud mi Lee.”

            LOL I don’t get it?

          3. Oh, and see how you called me a name and I didn’t report you to your PD or write you a fix it ticket for having your vehicle registration tag slightly crooked?

      2. Thanks.

        I agree. JT has always been a logical poster on here and that’s why I respond to him the same.

        I agree with you 100%. I wasn’t saying it that way at all. Not even close. I don’t expect respect, I don’t request respect. That is determined before I ever say a word most of the time. It’s all the person decision.

        Thanks. I’m usually around there. Just never met anyone formally.

    6. (a)”It means I treat people how they treat me. Exactly, every time. If you respect me and are a normal human, I treat you the same. If you disrespect me as a cop, I raise my treatment of you to the same level. ”
      +
      (b)”Yes, I’ve probably taken every person that has talked shit to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation.”

      So what you’re saying is that despite claiming to, you don’t actually treat them the “same level.” Instead you try to find any little ticky tack violation and let them have it. These are violations you could probably hit ANYBODY up with at any time, but you hit someone up just because they disrespected you? For reals??? Why not just say something back? If they’re being a prick to you, be a prick back. We already know you’re good at it. That constitute the “same level”, not fines, time spent at the courthouse, etc, all because somebody made fun of you! If what you said is true, you are a corrupt walking abuse of power and waste of taxpayer money. Just when I was starting to respect you a little and think maybe this cop is different, you readily admit to this sh*t.

      “Yes, you may have it as your right, but no cop will ever think you have the right to disrespect them for no reason.”

      What a classic cop comment. Cops disrespect people all the time. Many times for no reason. It just goes to show you walk around with a sense that you are entitled to treat people the way you would never accept being treated yourselves. And your comment that it is our right but cops don’t think it’s our right is absolute horsesh*t. It’s either a right or not; it’s either in the constitution or not.

      You’ve proven 2 things that we already know:

      (1) Even “balanced”, “good” cops will write you tickets or take you in for the sole reason that you called them a name.

      (2) Even “balanced”, “good” cops don’t believe in your rights when those rights hurt their feelings.

      I want to follow up that I don’t ever advocate being a prick to a cop for no reason because I don’t ever advocate being a prick to a human being for no reason. Cops seem to think they are entitled because of their uniform and conversely that the rest of us are not.

      1. No. That’s your interpretation of what you want it all to mean. Standard response. I have a reason to be contacting those people and they make up my mind for me. Simple.

        We disagree there. I don’t start the disrespect. You do. If cops disrespect people all the time, you should record it and report it. I don’t think you have anything on your own camera or experience to prove it. Keep up the good work though.

        1) It’s possible. If you committed a crime, then you should go to jail or get a ticket. Simple.
        2) Not true. You don’t hurt my feelings with disrespect. You just dictate how we converse from that point forward.

        Wrong again. Keep making things up.

        1. “No. That’s your interpretation of what you want it all to mean.”

          No, that’s what you said. Wanna restate and correct me? Unlike you I’m open to the possibility of being wrong. As opposed to you who has never posted anything other than complete fact, according to your own words. You must have gotten a 4.0 in high school and college, because you are never wrong.

          “If cops disrespect people all the time, you should record it and report it.”

          This is exactly what should NOT happen. Trying to cause someone trouble out of proportion to what they did to you. This further solidifies your position that anyone who calls someone a name should be met with a much harsher response.

          Seriously, report it? “Wah a cop called me a name.” What would be the response of the PD? Hopefully they’d tell me to grow a sack and F off. And I’d deserve it.

          “If you committed a crime, then you should go to jail or get a ticket. Simple.”

          Unless you’re a cop right?

  6. Leroy, a Federal court has already ruled in 2008 that recording police officers on duty in the public is a protected 1st Amendment right. We already knew that, but it was good to see a judge put it in writing.

    And I’m going to ask Tony again if he can please list the other screen names that “Reality Is” has been using, along with his IP address. And also consider permanently blocking him with an IP ban.

    1. LOL. You really want me banned? I could ban myself. Almost have already. You only want the one side on here? If so, I’m gone. I’ve been open and honest since day 1. I have had several people use my name for posts, but that’s part of the game here. Happens on numerous people’s ID’s that see reality as reality. I enjoyed this blog prior to the charges being brought because I enjoyed seeing the way out there opinions on what people thought was going to happen. It’s past that point now, and just a spewing of nonsense mostly, as I’m doing now. Do whatever you want. Ban me. I think that Tony and his team know that banning people isn’t what a blog is for though. Having one side with no view of reality isn’t good for what will actually occur as this blog team moves forward with an actual plan. So be it.

      1. “Having one side with no view of reality isn’t good for what will actually occur as this blog team moves forward with an actual plan. So be it.”

        This is very true. And the part about the nonsense too. 🙂

        The conspiracy that never was is over, the murderer has been charged, as has an accomplice. A criminal trial with a 15 years-to-life sentence is looming in his near future. And it turned out there was more very strong evidence most knew nothing about, Ramos’ audio. Some cover-up.

        Rarely does one see a cop charged with murder for on duty assholeness, and rarely does it happen that a whole Web site’s group think, or more generously, world view, gets so thoroughly crushed by events.

        1. I got a separate take. I thought T-Rack was saying that Ramos set up the whole situation but that Cicinelli was guilty of an entirely different crime independent of what Ramos had done.

    2. What happened to ALL first amendment rights??? All you fffers can slander the officers involved and post comments that are not true or supported but the minute someone speaks against you, you want to block them! That just speaks to the type of people supporting this blog! It’s my way or no way!!!

      1. It’s only one way here. I learned that long ago. I enjoy the debates with people that understand the big picture but there are some way out there whacko’s too.

        1. “It’s only one way here”

          Banning people from posting? Really? The only way? And you learned it long ago despite still posting here?

      2. I’m confirming that he’s an asshole, no comment on whether or not he should be banned, for the record.

        I find banning a poor technical solution to a social problem that doesn’t really work, myself, and from my brief interactions with the person who runs FFFF I think he feels something similar.

      3. First, idiot, learn what freedom of speech really means before you speak.

        Second, we don’t ban people here – even cretins like you.

        1. “even cretins like you.”

          Did you really just call him a cretin?

          That’s not cool. Folks with admin powers need to stay above the fray, and not get into name calling. Besides, I took ‘its one way here’ as a reference to the dominant group-think, not that he was sayin’ folks get banned.

  7. Anna :
    …In fact if there’s anything this Kelly Thomas affair taught me, it’s that being an average citizen out and about in DTF is a much more dangerous affair than being the one in uniform.
    I’m female, I’m young, I’m gay… and basically scared shitless of some asshole in a uniform taking an exception and/or advantage of any combination of those factors.

    Anna maybe the future will improve but I don’t see it happening in Fullerton. I suggest you move out these cops are to powerful.

    1. Really? I don’t think that’s true. I think the least powerful cops in the USA right now are Fullerton. That’s why the good cops are leaving.

      1. I agree. I think the FPD appears to be overrun with weak and cowardly men and it’s not a surprise that the good cops are leaving. Some weak and cowardly people who feel powerless will resort to abusing anyone they have authority over to feel more powerful and important. Bur really, it will only make them smaller so their abuse will escalate as you see it happening in Fullerton.

  8. The day is coming and may be closer than we think. The technology has arrived and so has the renaissance of courage in the city of Fullerton. Those that serve the dark side can no longer sleep because the lights are now on 24/7 folks. I have a question for all of the other 100+ sworn personell. The municipality is self insured from what I understand. Why didnt you rat out these goons long before they had the chance to bankrupt the city and lead to the demise of your employer? Silence has equaled complicity. Kelly Thomas was KIDNAPPED, TORTURED AND MURDERED PERIOD. WE STILL HAVE THE FBI, DOJ AND EVEN MS.HARRIS UP NORTH IF NECESSARY. THIS THING IS FAR FROM OVER BY A LONG SHOT. THIS THING IS NOT A TAR BABY, IT IS THE GAME WINNING POLITICAL FOOTBALL FOR WHOEVER CARRIES IT CORRECTLY THIS TIME.

  9. I speak for only me……but I dont care who respects me- I want them to tolerate me as I do them. I have heard alot about…the police help us,they put their lives on the line- I dont deny this fact-but they get paid handsomely for this job- they signed up for it- Im not demeaning it- I know Im not cop material- so I wouldnt be one, I understand the necessity of police depts, this one Im afraid is beyond repair.

  10. Yes this demand to be loved and respected – or else is typical of the narcissist with a borderline personality disorder.

    Give them “respect” and love and they can be quite pleasant. If they’re having a bad day and the love and respect isn’t forthcoming quite quickly enough to suit, you may end up with a Ramos or Cicinelli going to town on your cranium.

  11. Excellent, Jt.

    What if public school teachers reacted to “disrespect” by manhandling students? They’d lose their jobs.

  12. As bad as Reality Is gets made out to be, at least his arguments are well worded.

    People on here speak of “incendiary,” how about the idiots on the other side with posts like “ALL FPD ARE STINKING PIGS THAT SHOULD DIE!”

    Nope, nope, not incendiary at all.

    1. My Username Rocks :
      After having read the complete exchange between Ramos and Thomas just now, I definitely see why Ramos lost his temper.
      Ramos’ actions were bullshit, make no mistake about that. But Kelly definitely came across as lippy, especially when directly challenging Ramos by saying, “Start punching, dude” after Ramos had just threatened him.

      I am not in the least bit surprised that you would “advocate” for your buddy Reality Is.

  13. Reality Is :
    Stand by everything as well. If you think you can disrespect a cop doing his job, then go for it. Shows the class of person there is on this blog. If you think everyday citizens in this state will stand by your side when they see the video of you dancing around telling the cop to fuck off for no reason, then keep doing it over and over, city by city. No one says you will be beat or injured, but keep in mind some of the laws in place when the cop asks you to back away or stop interfering in his investigation, if you happen to be doing that. Yes, arrests are very simple. Back on the street in 30 minutes max. If I have the elements of a crime for you as you tell me to fuck off, I will make the arrest and will gladly show the video in front of a jury and lay out the elements of the crime. If no crime and you had just walked up to me to get my reaction, I will laugh with you and drive away, as will most of us. Goes back to my saying a few months ago. If no one in this world talked shit to the cops, ran from the cops, resisted the cops, or didn’t get drunk, they would never have an issue with the cops. Yes, I know it’s your right but it’s also what causes the problems.
    You can rip on me all you want. It’s all good. All I’m doing is telling you how it is out there statewide, nationwide. Yes there are bad cops. Yes we need to find them and get them out. If they do bad, they need to be punished. But you wanting to disrespect a cop for no reason isn’t the best thing to teach people, teach the kids, and most of all, to avoid further problems. Yes, I’ve probably taken every person that has talked shit to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation. All legit. All recorded. All guilty. Yes, you may have it as your right, but no cop will ever think you have the right to disrespect them for no reason. Never. Even if you form your own FFFF Bushala police force. Some of the people here would be the cops. Even after you see what reality is out there on the streets, bar brawls, gang fights, shootings, etc. you will also see that you don’t deserve to be disrespected for no reason. Oh I know, you say you would love it. And yes, we are paid by taxes. But we don’t work for you, you don’t tell us what to do and how to do it, and you aren’t are bosses. REality sucks sometimes but the truth is the truth. I’m out there all the time. Have been for a long long time. Love the community. Love the citizens. There are some nut jobs out there and some dangerous people. There are some great people too. Ooops..I just described this blog too didn’t I? Yep. Community makeup is consistent no matter where you go.

    WHY AND HOW WOULD YOUR PALS VIEW AND HEAR RAMOS TWENTY FEET AWAY NOT STOP THE MURDER. HOW DO THE BOSSES SEE AND HEAR BRUTALITY LIVE BACK AT THE POLICE BUNKER AND NOT BE DISTURBED. THIS WAS A MURDER OBSERVED BY ALL YOUR CONSPIRATORS AND AS USUAL AS MANY BEFORE WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE IN REAL TIME.
    AND NONE OF YOUR ANIMAL FIENDS DID ANYTHING. BUSINESS AS USUAL.
    OH! DID YOU ANIMALS SHARE IN THE CONTENTS OF KELLY THOMAS’ KNAPSACK?

    1. your disturbing amount of caps aside, I don’t really know how “Reality Is” can claim that it’s just a “few” bad cops when six of them watched a man get murdered and did jack-all, this is by no means the first time Fullerton cops alone have been caught doing shit like this, and the entire establishment has sprung up in their defense and would have never charged anyone with anything had there not been intense, worldwide public outcry.

      It’s not just “a few bad ones”.

    2. You are assuming how it all played out. I said from the start that all 6 weren’t there as this all played out. The DA gave a pretty good timeline, vague, but good. The other good point he made is that responding cops have no clue that Ramos may have done something wrong or is doing something wrong. When they respond and run right to the struggle, they are in the mind frame of this cop needs help. They help until he is in custody. Arrival times on this incident are crucial in determining that here.

      Your opinions here are based on your beliefs that all 6 took part in it. They didn’t. All 5 also didn’t have the opportunity to know what was actually going on and stop it at that split second. You will see all of that at trial during testimony.

      1. Most folks here just keep repeating the line that “all six watched him get murdered,” and that’s just not true. Reality Is explained the situation and the DA did as well:

        “Based on the available evidence and all of the information reviewed related to this case, the evidence does not show that Officer (insert any of four names here) was aware of the physical threat made by Ramos against Thomas, which escalated the lawful detainment to an unlawful use of force.”

        The exception of course is Cicinelli, whose out of all control crimes were so egregious that whether he was aware of the threat or not doesn’t matter.

  14. Jt’s last line says it all, but it should apply to this blog too. Banning people can become an addictive habit. Better let then expose their own idiocy themselves. As Jt notes, Reality… has offered quite an education about the cop mind.

    1. imo, most people who respond to Reality Is are using him as an outlet for their anger and frustration. I think we’re all on the same side, talking and believing the same values if you would be honest in interpreting what he wrote. Again, problem with blogging and online comments is that semantics get in the way of readers to perceive correctly some of the real attitudes and emotional appeals of the writers.

      There is already a growing number of people on here who, because of kelly’s beating, automatically jump on the band wagon and start hating on ALL cops. That’s what’s disconcerting to me… it’s sad really. I’m just an ordinary guy who’ve been in trouble before, but it’s because of a cop who was professional and kind enough to speak to me about my choices that I turned around. These good stories don’t ever get told enough. Bottom line, this feeling of entitlement on both sides is what causes dissension and conflict. Just because it’s your right to express yourself doesn’t mean it’s the smartest thing to do to another human being. Officers are human too and they also have their moments of weaknesses.

      1. Some of us do remember what has been posted under the username “Reality Is.” We choose not to let ourselves become distracted from the issue at hand. We can choose not to react to inflammatory statements but address them in a rational way. Or choose to ignore them. It is good in many ways for those comments to be posted here because it brings to light what the attitude is and also the level of ignorance (and I don’t use the word ignorance in a demeaning way) is among some people who may or may not be police officers and who may or may not be residents of Fullerton. This shows what Kelly Thomas was up against. Perhaps some of us have chosen to be a different kind of “troll” if you will–a troll for truth and justice, a troll to educate the uneducated, a troll to shed light on the darkness, to respond to the unreasonable with reason, to model unprofessional demeanor with professional demeanor. Take the high road and stay on the high road. We must be careful that we don’t become what we defend against.

  15. truthseeker :
    The day is coming and may be closer than we think. The technology has arrived and so has the renaissance of courage in the city of Fullerton. Those that serve the dark side can no longer sleep because the lights are now on 24/7 folks. I have a question for all of the other 100+ sworn personell. The municipality is self insured from what I understand. Why didnt you rat out these goons long before they had the chance to bankrupt the city and lead to the demise of your employer? Silence has equaled complicity. Kelly Thomas was KIDNAPPED, TORTURED AND MURDERED PERIOD. WE STILL HAVE THE FBI, DOJ AND EVEN MS.HARRIS UP NORTH IF NECESSARY. THIS THING IS FAR FROM OVER BY A LONG SHOT. THIS THING IS NOT A TAR BABY, IT IS THE GAME WINNING POLITICAL FOOTBALL FOR WHOEVER CARRIES IT CORRECTLY THIS TIME.

    Very soon these animals will move away with disability pensions and have the last laugh.

    1. Real time information May start to govern things here in the near future.

      Information is taking over everything, and this information will be black and white for checks and balances,

      There is no way, any of the ongoing ideas of job growth or unlimited growth, going to be able to support these pensions.

      There is no way our “world oil reserves” will be able to support these 20th century ideologies.

      We are in the 21st century now and the world we once knew is transforming itself.

      The notion that huge populations of people can feed on our soon to be dwindling reserve of resources is just not sustainable.

      People of all walks know this.

      Most of the people running for the jobs with pensions are people new to the cities.

      Our cities are filling up with amateurs, inexperienced in the art of getting along with others,

      Usually big fish from small ponds falling into this abysmal plane of fearful culture shock.

      Thats when we see out of towners filling up local gov. jobs for security then beating on The homeless

  16. Lest it be thought that I’m an advocate for RI, I should ask…has he ever produced proof that he is/was LE?

  17. Well said. Respect is earned. It’s suppose to be an honorable profession but instead it’s infested with thugs, unethical characters who joined the force for lavish salary, pension, and abuse of power without consequences. These characters do not have the skill and IQ to make a decent earning in the private sector . All these thanks to the so called Police Unions who bribed/corrupted the system. Unfortunately, there are blind & igorant jurors who still thinks the police are all good and honorable. Sure there are cops that are hornest with intergrity but they won’t last long in the force if they speak/stand up to the wrongs. So the other god cops just turned the other way or stay silent so that they continue to have a job or won’t be passed on for promotion.

  18. The Orange County Register :
    Todd Spitzer: DA made the right decision in Thomas case
    http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/thomas-318672-law-ron.html

    Read the article and see that he clearly states that if we were not keeping this movement alive and growing the D A would have squashed this case. It’s our safety and survival in Fullerton that’s on the edge of further decline if we don’t remove the animals and thieves raping our community . God help us. Kelly Thomas your loss is terrible, but your legacy to us in Fullerton is a wake up call to remove the vermin destroying our future and our safety. I pray for you.

  19. leave it to the nuts to take a few words out of context and run with them, What hes saying is enough with the “when in doubt, holler loud” mentality and dont expect people to kiss the ass of the copper just because he has on a badge.
    Jt is not saying go up to a cop and tell him to fuck off you cop lickers, hes saying the coppers think they are a special class that should get special treatment and you/they arent-do you get that or should I read the piece line by line to you tards?
    RI-People skills? the way you were on this blog commenting how Kelly Thomas’s father is in this for the money and that he was fired from the force (like any of that makes a difference, if it were the truth) people skills you are the inflamer/instigater you big pompous ass. and this is what kind of BS coppers spew and ring kissing from us. power trippers

  20. Merhoe this is in the (Todd Spitzer EX-D.A ) piece.

    Were the charges levied and the level of intensity related to the resources deployed in the district attorney’s investigation routine? (NOPE)

    Or did Ron Thomas and “Kelly’s Heroes” and the Friends for Fullerton’s Future blog and print and talk radio factor into the investigative resources deployed and the ultimate filing decision? (YES)

  21. The Fullerton Savage :
    Jt’s last line says it all, but it should apply to this blog too. Banning people can become an addictive habit. Better let then expose their own idiocy themselves. As Jt notes, Reality… has offered quite an education about the cop mind.

    I understand what you’re saying, but ‘m not saying that anyone with a dissenting opinion should be banned. Of course not. But “Reality Is” didn’t come here to express a dissenting opinion. He came here to deliberately upset people (with comments like “none of the officers will be charged” and “Kelly Thomas resisted arrest and got his ass kicked.”) He did that intentionally, so he could clog the comment board with useless arguments. That way, if other visitors saw the blog and all the back and forth discussions with him (and his other screen names), he was hoping it would turn people off. Basically, he was hoping to derail the entire discussion.

    In other blogs and forums, posting under multiple screen names is an offense that will get you banned. Especially in this context, where his whole purpose for doing so was to hijack the comment board. In every online forum I’ve ever been on, a moderator or admin would have banned someone if they were doing what “Reality Is” has been doing here.

    By the way, I was wondering…has anyone ever contacted Tony or Travis by email or phone? I just left a voicemail message and sent an email. I’m sure that they have looked at server logs and they already know who “Reality Is” or at least all the screen names he has used. I would REALLY like to know if he is actually a law enforcement officer, like he claims. I think, considering all the veiled threats he has made and his disregard for citizens’ rights, it’s extremely important for us to know who this guy is and whether or not he really is a cop. And if so, what department he works for. If he’s actually stupid enough to write all his posts from work and he’s on a T1 or fiber optic line, then it would be easy enough to find out where he works from the IP address. If he’s on a DSL line, it might not be quite as easy because the IP address would probably only show where his ISP is, not his actual location. For example, until recently if you looked up an IP address for someone who was using Verizon DSL, it would show that they were in Virginia, even though there person might actually be in Oregon.

    So who is “Reality Is” ? Is he really a cop? And if so, what department? Does he actually work for the FPD? We need to find all this out. We might have another Ramos or Cicinelli in the making.

    1. Meh, let the guy talk. He may (or may not) carry a badge and gun during the day, but here he’s just another guy typing. Who gives a shit.

        1. YOU ARE A POMPOUS ASS JUST LIKE 99.9 OF ALL COP,S ARE AS FOR PEOPLE PUTING THERE NAME AND ADDRESS DON,T BECAUSE POMPOUS ASS WILL FINE SOMETHING TO PUT YOU IN JAIL HE SAID THAT NOT ME AM IN LOUISIANA AND DON,T CARE WHAT YOU SAY ALL LIE,S LIE,S LIE,S

    2. Well, I guess if that’s what this blog is then it is.

      I speak my mind, you speak your mind.

      I’ll put my name, address, and any other information right here as long as everyone else on here puts their name, address, job, and any other information right here. Sounds fair to me.

      I said several months ago if you want to weed out the trolls and the people using multiple names, just make this blog Facebook log on only like the newspapers and other blogs. Facebook accounts take a little more work to keep making new ones and people wouldn’t use other IDS then.

      Of course if you did that, the posts would probably decrease by about 60% too.

      1. “everyone else on here puts their name, address, job, and any other information right here”

        So you and your buddies can harass us and take us “to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation”?

  22. An officer really needs to have the emotional security to rise above insults he may intur out in the field of service. Isn’t this part of their training to not react emotionally when insulted.(I have to admit the city council seemed to do a very good job at restraint at the recent city council public comments.)The police force doesn’t need to hire any more narcissists who enjoy bullying as a means of bolstering their own egos and needs for self worth. There needs to be a way to screen out these types with emotional insecurity and ego problems during the application and recruiting process. New recruits should have to have good recomendations from the high schools the attended to see if they are capable of contributing positively to the community they will serve.Those who teach should also have a reputations of commenable behavior while on the force.

    1. i agree. But at 18 and 21 years old, if they can pass backgrounds and psych, they are just kids. Cops mature, grow up, live and learn through the years. The cops that are there 10-20 years learned what they did from their real life experiences while at that city and police department.

  23. merijoe :
    leave it to the nuts to take a few words out of context and run with them, What hes saying is enough with the “when in doubt, holler loud” mentality and dont expect people to kiss the ass of the copper just because he has on a badge.
    Jt is not saying go up to a cop and tell him to fuck off you cop lickers, hes saying the coppers think they are a special class that should get special treatment and you/they arent-do you get that or should I read the piece line by line to you tards?
    RI-People skills? the way you were on this blog commenting how Kelly Thomas’s father is in this for the money and that he was fired from the force (like any of that makes a difference, if it were the truth) people skills you are the inflamer/instigater you big pompous ass. and this is what kind of BS coppers spew and ring kissing from us. power trippers

    Try this excerpt.
    But it is difficult to imagine that in the absence of Ron Thomas’ activism and the attention he demanded to the brutality used against his son Kelly, that the same level of investigative resources would have been committed and the unrelenting attention and scrutiny of the DA’s handling of the case would have been the same.

    Bringing a lawsuit against the City of Fullerton and starting a recall against a majority of the city council members does have an impact.

    Let’s stop insulting the bloggers.Typical Fullerton working class trash who need to know and be kept in their place by the sadistic ,souless cops who have a free hand to roam the streets and do what they like with full support and cover up powers of their upper bosses.

    1. I agree. No way this case gets this much attention without Ron Thomas and the picture at the hospital. Also, the social media aspect alive in this day and age.

      Oh ok.

    2. Mark wrote:

      Try this excerpt:

      “But it is difficult to imagine that in the absence of Ron Thomas’ activism and the attention he demanded to the brutality used against his son Kelly, that the same level of investigative resources would have been committed and the unrelenting attention and scrutiny of the DA’s handling of the case would have been the same.”

      Okay… Anytime a quote begins with “but” one can be certain the quote-er purposely left out important context. Here it was the entire first half of the paragraph where Spitzer wrote that T-Rack would have filed murder and manslaughter charged even without Ron and the protests:

      Spitzer: “I believe the district attorney did the right thing in this case and would have filed these charges irrespective of the community outcry for justice or the pressure from Ron Thomas. The evidence is just too overwhelming against these officers based on the information shared thus far; evidence none of us imagined existed to the degree it apparently is captured in video and audio and witness accounts.”

      Oh and…

      What’s wrong with being critical of bloggers and commenters when they don’t play fair? You know, by using quotes completely out of context? Or as in the offering of a link to documents supposedly supporting a Kelly Thomas ‘missing call’ conspiracy theory when the link leads to docs which don’t prove or even support that theory much at all? And then, even when the error has been pointed out, the blogger, fails to acknowledege and correct the mistake, allowing lots of morons to go on believing in their ‘missing call’ conspiracy as if it were fact. This is not cool, and should not stand.

      It’s one thing to be inflammatory, but it’s something else altogether, something much worse, to knowingly light folks up with poorly thought out conspiracy theories built on what is clearly faulty analysis. Especially the ‘knowingly’ part… Just the other day an idiot here suggested the nightclub that was the alleged source of the ‘missing call’ should be burned down.

      http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/the-missing-phone-call/

  24. Reality Is :
    I agree. No way this case gets this much attention without Ron Thomas and the picture at the hospital. Also, the social media aspect alive in this day and age.
    Oh ok.

    Thank god for communication. Espescially the expression of our civil liberties. I’m speaking about communist behavior like freedom of speech. Even more radical video taping sadistic cops framing innocent people. The courts have ruled that I have the right to record cops at work and PLAY.
    As the cops say if you have nothing to hide let me search your body and your car and especially your homes w/o a warrant.
    The four innocent cops refuesed to talk with the D A and wow their off the hook. When civil trash refuse to talk w/o an atty present he’s guilty as sin, but not the fabulous four.

    1. They are taken to a room and verbally berated and accused for hours…… These cops did not even talk to the DA… take a lesson from the cops, NEVER go in and answer questions… clam up and get a lawyer. NEVER let a cop in your house, talk through the door. They have a way of using your words to make you look guilty even when innocent… they tried to put a kid in Escondido away for killing his sister, the Phoenix cops got 4 or 5 guys to confess to a Budhist monk killing they could not possibly have done by taking them into that little room and beating them down verbally for hours and hours. Yes Reality some of us know what cop work is about.

  25. Hey Reality, are you missing one of your poker players over there in Newport? You came on here and exonerated these killers from the start, you denegrated people for wanting the truth and the bad cops off the street…. then you glom on to the fact 2 are charged and one sits in jail and is handcuffed in front of cameras by saying you predicted it….. Go write some more tint tickets and bust little kids without bike helmets.

    1. Hey yeah, wasn’t it Reality Is that was talking about the partying cops and their families and how everybody was laughing at the anti-brutality crowd and how they were all gonna walk?

      1. Nope. Just how everyone was waiting for the process to play out in Newport. If someone screwed up, punish them. Still the same feelings.

  26. My question is, if it’s known that RI comes here to weaken this blog’s credibility by trolling and starting ridiculous arguments, why does the majority give him that which he seeks-acknowledgement?

    1. He only strengthens the blog’s credibility. Plus I’m learning a lot from him about police mentality. He claims to be one of the good ones and fairly middle-of-the-road. Which speaks VOLUMES.

      Plus it’s one of the only places we can speak our minds to a walking abuse of power and

      (a) NOT get arrested for being drunk in public despite a 0.00 percent BAC
      (b) NOT get arrested and perjured against for “jumping on an arresting officer’s back” despite irrefutable video evidence to the contrary.
      (c) NOT getting multiple tickets for minor meaningless vehicle code infractions because we were “disrespectful”.

    2. That is far far from my intention here. The credibility is here. I couldn’t impact the credibility if I tried. I probably add credibility just because if someone was to visit they see a small amount if debate and not just one sided anti slam session. I don’t need acknowledgement either. Ignore me then.

  27. “Contempt of Cop” the unwritten law that must be obeyed. I don’t care how much these cops make or how they love to file for disability two months before they retire because they fell off a chair or twisted an ankle in a bar stool. Don’t care about the three day work week or more sick days then a cancer patient needs. I am, however, sick and tired of these cry babys telling everyone they have their life on the line every day. Truth is they land pretty far down the list of dangerous jobs, far behind truck drivers, roofers, fishermen, iron workers, miners,garbage men, farmers and other folks that don’t expect us to kiss their ass for showing up for work. If they don’t like the job or if they think it’s too dangerous, quit. If not shut up take your decent paycheck to the bar and buy a garbageman a beer and thank him for risking his life picking up your empty beer bottles. If you tell that garbageman to fuck off you may get a smack in the jaw but you are certainly not going to get a smack in the jaw and arrested. Tell one of these hero’s to go shit in his hat and it’s even money you are going to get locked up. In Kelley’s case he managed to avoid the lock up by dieing while being counseled on the perils of committing “Contempt of Cop” one of the most punished crimes in the land.

    1. I sincerely thank you Ex-Pat; you truly spoke for me, and I’m sure the majority of the bloggers for Kelly share your sentiments.

      May I also offer my deepest thanks to you for speaking up so clearly and loudly for Kelly.

      I hope that every self-proclaimed cop who is reading on this blog, who feels entitled, self-righteous, above the law, better than those he has duly sworn to protect and serve, picked on, misunderstood and maligned, will read your comment above and then perhaps will finally gain some insight into what true Reality Is. I can dream.

  28. Sometimes “contempt of cop” is the result of the contemptuous manner in which the police officer is behaving towards the civilian/subject/victim.

    1. Not if you have the California Public Safety Officers Procedural Bill of Rights Act on your side. It basically means you can do whatever the f*ck you want and it’s OK. It’s a gigantic list of ways that a cop can get out of murder, theft, rape, etc… based on technicalities.

    1. 9c1copcar;

      Along the same vein as your post.

      “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
      Abraham Lincoln

  29. Keep up the presure on the Fullerton City Counsel
    and FPD because the mayors comments that this was a tragedy for the officers goes toward that they will only take responsibility to the extent they are ‘made’ to take responsibility. But it is aso true a couple of the officers may have no responsibility and it would be equaly wrong to ruin their lives.

  30. Don’t you people get it. There is no such thing as a good cop! Their culture will not allow it. We wonder why, none of the other cops came forward and said the KT beating was wrong. Because that cop would be a dead cop. Their own team would be their worst enemy. Sad to say, their work culture is different than most typical business, where we can go to HR if we don’t like the environment. Can you imagine not being able to go to anyone to say your opinion. I think you can be a bad cop, but a good person. How many cops went home that night and said to themselves, we just ended a life tonight, and it was wrong. Cops will hang their own team members out to dry, just for being a good cop. You could not pay me enough to be a “Peace Officer”.

  31. CG, you are wrong. There are good cops. But there is a problem with the FPD, although I cannot help but believe most, not all, FPD officers are good.

  32. FACT: A police officer’s peace CANNOT be disturbed, that is law #1! Hat’s off to you JT, I thought I was eloquent but you got me beat! Have a kick’n weekend and be safe!

  33. In my days on the beat, I would constantly remind myself of the following:

    “Reasonable people respond well to reasonable requests.”

    My opinion from the peanut gallery in the tragedy of Kelly Thomas – an officer with clenched fists over a suspect combined with an explicative is not a reasonable request.

    This should not stop with Ramos and Cicinelli. Any officer in touch with his wits and surroundings on that scene.. should have been able to differentiate between a suspect being restrained and one being beaten without prejudice.

    This is far from over, especially if what I read is true about officers being able to review audio/video while writing their reports.

    All those who were on that scene that night and did nothing, should uphold their oath to the citizens of Fullerton and step aside.

    In my opinion, there was very little honesty, integrity, and professionalism associated with what happened that night.

    1. TxObserver wrote: “– an officer with clenched fists over a suspect combined with an explicative is not a reasonable request.”

      It’s true, but to be fair let’s look at the actual exchange:

      Ramos: Now, see my fists?
      Thomas: Yeah. What about them?
      Ramos: They are getting ready to f*** you up.
      Thomas: Start punching, dude.
      Ramos: If you don’t f****** start listening.
      Thomas: That sucks.
      Ramos: Yeah.

      I would not want to have an exchanges with a cop like that one, and it’s not right that Ramos would talk like that to any citizen, but note that Ramos did (quickly?) modify his threat saying “If you don’t f****** start listening.” Rational folks at this point would recognize the invitation to de-escalate and respond along the lines of “Okay, I’m listening, what would you like me to do?”

      But Thomas was not rational, and he had cognitive issues, as the DA carefully pointed out in describing the escalation that occurred prior to the threat. The DA: “…Thomas had difficulty following Ramos’ instructions. Thomas appeared to have cognitive issues and difficulty understanding Ramos’ instructions.”

      All this is to remind that Thomas’ mental issues played a big role in how this all went down. Officers in contact with the homeless should be better trained, and why Sellers didn’t learn this from his experience as the chief here in Laguna Beach is baffling. On his first day with FPD he could have appointed an officer to receive training and directly liaison with the downtown Fullerton homeless, as he did in Laguna after similar problems.

  34. CG,

    I take umbridge with your comment, “there is no such thing as a good cop”. I was one, so was FEDUP. We did the right thing; treated people with respect, had good hearts, and a conscience. We respected the badge, and the honor and trust that went with it. We acted within the law, and did our jobs to the best of our abilities. We honored the profession by being first of all, upstanding citizens who obeyed the laws of the land. We set the example for our kids, and treated everyone equally. You sound like anyone in uniform is from Communist Russia.
    We would like to pay our respects to those who not only sacrifice weekends/holidays and the such with their families, but put their lives on the line for us every day. We salute them.

    1. And Thank You for your service. I am not putting down Police Officers. I personally respect their work. But I am concerned about FPD, I want them to protect us without the “Bad Cop” mentality

  35. I’m a middle age woman. I work in education. I have three children. I grew up in my community, and own a home in it. I grew up trusting the police and taught my children to trust and respect them. I have lost all trust and respect over the last few years due to many incidents I have seen with my son and his friends, my husband, even myself, and the police. I would have to write 3 pages to list all the incidents I know about, including one with me and I’m not going to do that, but suffice it to say, if someone like ME loses respect and trust…..something is wrong with the system. Yes, on an individual bases, I could like and be friends with an officer. My husband’s old school friend is with OPD and we have a blast when we go out, but I will never, ever trust an on duty officer that I do not know. I have seen too many lies, too much anger, too much disrespect, too much pettiness and revenge. From the police. I have to say that I don’t like seeing people say that there are NO good cops. That is untrue and unfair. But over the past 10 years or so, there is less patience, less professionalism and more brutishness in the police force. At least that has been the experience of myself and my family and friends. Why?

  36. I hope you are right John. Have you heard any FPD come forward? Good FPD’s work in fear. Real humans know the difference between right and wrong. Good cops sit in silent HELL!

  37. CAT,

    I can sympathize with your plight.
    The reason some law enforcement officers are so “heavy”, is directly related to the upper management, for it is they who know of each officers demeanor. They see it in the injuries they inflict upon the citizenry, flimsy evidence, high complaint/lawsuit levels and the such. These “heavies” then become T.O.’s, (training officers). When they get new officers, they train them to be mean, very physical, and to lie; anything to take people to jail, irregardless of the facts. These officers, in turn, become T.O.’s, and the vicious cycle just multiplies itself. Is there any reason as to why some are the way they are? Cicinelli was, most likely, a T.O.. Can you imagine what he taught those officers to do? It is scary.
    Take the upper management, (brass), to task, make them responsible for the conduct of their officers once again, and you will see a reduction in false arrest/abuse.
    RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED

  38. Respect is a 2 way street. You get what you give. That is a concept that has lost its importance in today’s Fullerton.
    So sad to see this happen to my home.

  39. Anonymous :
    For anyone that has not seen this:
    http://orangecountyda.com/home/index.asp?page=8&recordid=2581&returnurl=index%2Easp%3Fpage%3D8

    How about this

    “The available evidence does not show that ANY OF THE FOUR NON CHARGED OFFICERS was aware, upon arriving at the scene, that he was assisting in the restraint of a victim who had been subjected to excessive force by other Fullerton police officers, according to the district attorney. ”

    four of the murder/torturers are FREE to POLICE YOUR ASS

  40. Everyone, tomorrow, FEDUP and I are going to try to get people to sign up for a get-to- know-our-rights seminar. Just a gathering of friends to get to know each other, and to voice our opinions. It should be very enlightening and fun. If anyone is interested, please come and see us. We will be sitting down on the City Hall lawn. I will be wearing my Marine Corp hat and t-shirt. FEDUP will be wearing her Notre Dame garb, (yuck!). lol

    1. Better Notre Dame than University of Spoiled Children 🙂 My BIL was a member of Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children in VN 1966-1967 or so 🙂

  41. I already tell cops to fuck off. They have never done nothing to me. Just make sure you do it in front of a half dozen witnesses.

  42. WE pay them

    they work for us

    the job is something THEY should respect more than we respect them

    to hear that the cops who murdered Kelly still earn paychecks FROM USSSSSSSSSSSS and
    pensions
    health benefits
    w/e else.. is disgusting

    to think they kept badges for 3 weeks

    ^^^^^^ and their fellow officers were OK with that..

    SHOWS ME WHO RESPECTS WHO THE LEAST

    1. This whole paid administrated leave issue should be easy to resolve, the internal investigation can be concluded with out regard to the legal issue. If the department finds any or all of those involved were acting outside of department policy then they can fire those and stop the pay, or they can make it publicly known that there actions were within the norm for there department and they stand behind those actions. They have the same evidence that the D A used to file charges and there only responsibilty is to say if those involved acted within policy or not. Mabey its time to put some pressure on the new acting chief

  43. CG,

    FEDUP and I thank you for your kind words. It was an honor for us to serve.

    As I stated, it is the brass, (upper management), that allows all the knuckleheads to flourish. If they came down on them like a good leader would in a civilian profession, there would be few incidents.

  44. Anonymous :
    For anyone that has not seen this:
    http://orangecountyda.com/home/index.asp?page=8&recordid=2581&returnurl=index%2Easp%3Fpage%3D8

    Thanks, What a joke.

    The law further describes, “If a peace officer uses unreasonable or excessive force while (arresting, attempting to arrest/ [or] detaining or attempting to detain) a person, that person may lawfully use reasonable force to defend himself or herself.”

    D A Tony, How do I defend myself when several psycho cops are sadistically executing me.

    Tony’s report says this organized torture went on for 30 minutes in clear full view of so many witnesses. How do cops stand 20 feet away with members of the public horrified by the torture and stand idle. These animals were let off the hook by the corrupt D A. What a disgrace.

  45. 9c1copcar :
    CG,
    FEDUP and I thank you for your kind words. It was an honor for us to serve.
    As I stated, it is the brass, (upper management), that allows all the knuckleheads to flourish. If they came down on them like a good leader would in a civilian profession, there would be few incidents.

    Ask yourself this question and answer it for me. How do the bigshots in the police force watch the videos and hear the audio and even better see this diabolical murder transpire on their state of the art real time toys back at police headquarters and not order it to stop. They are monsters who get their rocks off savoring torture.

  46. I have to strongly disagree with the asinine “all cops are bad” comments.

    With the exception of an unlawful detention of me by FPD (surprised?) my experiences while being stopped have generally been positive.

  47. krupke :

    9c1copcar :
    CG,
    FEDUP and I thank you for your kind words. It was an honor for us to serve.
    As I stated, it is the brass, (upper management), that allows all the knuckleheads to flourish. If they came down on them like a good leader would in a civilian profession, there would be few incidents.

    Ask yourself this question and answer it for me. How do the bigshots in the police force watch the videos and hear the audio and even better see this diabolical murder transpire on their state of the art real time toys back at police headquarters and not order it to stop. They are monsters who get their rocks off savoring torture.

    and tried to coverup the murder by paying off the father ..

    left their badges on them for 3 weeks.. not even one day off for what -I HOPE most cops would be traumatized by..

    MURDER/TORTURE just routine for them

    1. As in all business, manangement always covers their ass. It appears FPD management is covering their own ass also. The worker bees are only following them. I have asses that I work with also, and for some reason management protects them. Good cops are watchin them, but can’t speak up. Fear of losing their jobs. I keep quiet to keep my job. But I don’t have a union.

  48. I absolutely love this post. I was just thinking about this very same thing. I am a 40+ woman and have had a young police officer treat me like I am criminal because I was going over the speed limit by 10 mph. (just once, really!). Regardless of age, police officers are not above us. It kills me to see this on a regular basis in my community! I will say that there are a FEW that are in the job because they care about helping people, but the majority are just insecure, ego inflated, punk asses who feed off of TRYING to intimidate people. Unfortunately, many of their targets are not strong individuals and submit to the tactics of these rogue officers. And “officers” is a term that they do not deserve. Bravo to you, JT.

    1. That was spot on when you capitalized trying when you wrote “trying to intimidate people”.

      Cicinelli has one eye and Ramos has a normal ear and a friggin’ elephantitis ear.

      Really Fullerton PD? And people are supposed to take them seriously?

  49. KRUPKE,

    I toally agree that the Watch Commander on duty, )usually a Lt.), saw everything that was taking place via the pole camera. They have a positive duty to contact their officers and call a halt to proceedings in all cases that involve danger to the public. They obviously saw the excessive use of force and did nothing. I would also charge them with criminal negligence in this case.

  50. Next time you need assistance from being robbed , or your house being broken into, call a Librarian. Oops, they only work 12:00 AM to 9:00 PM, six days a week, and only carry books.

    Buy a gun, and do for yourself. Easy way to save $36 M on cops.

    🙂

    1. Oops, they only work 12:00 AM to 9:00 PM, six days a week, and only carry books.

      Look at that? Librarians work more hours than cops and actually carry something that they’re proficient with.

      Librarians need a union, not the police.

      Thanks dude 🙂

    2. Actually that’s what the police themselves recommend…buy a gun and protect yourself and your family. Just don’t have anything in your hands when the cops finally get there, or you’ll be a bullet riddled corpse.

  51. As I said, the MANAGEMENT, needs to be replaced. I don’t care what you call them. (title). They must take the fall. If they were there, and did not make the call to stop. They are at fault, they are guilty of murder.

  52. Maybe the political battles were increasingly tied up in are not between left and right but between authoritarian and libertarian personalities. The establishment in Fullerton and their henchmen in the police department are clearly on the authoritarian side. Those with authoritarian personalities like the mayor simple cannot understand questioning authority. So of course Kelley deserved it and the “tragedy” is that the cops got caught because authority can never be wrong. This attitude flourished and was reinforced. Kelley got the beating by the thug cops cause he dared to question authority even though he really didn’t cause he was impaired. In the end at a base level he was beat to death by a bunch of thugs who were empowered and encouraged by their bosses. The lack of empathy from the establishment is typical because they are authoritarian minded people.

    It is heartbreaking but the tragedy really only extends to Kelley’s loved ones and the community who has to heal from this tragedy in more ways than one.

    This is not about 2 cops or 6 cops or 3 councilmen, the city has consistently shown a cruel and sinister lack of empathy. Fullerton is NOT a city overwhelmed with crime and violence. You would expect this kind of corruption in New York in 1978. Fullerton is a small and relatively safe community, the residents and establishment should not be desensitized to this kind of violence. Well the residents are, the establishment is not and that points to the scary reality that something is wrong.

    Nor is Fullerton a city where the pols and bureaucrats can get rich. Again, it is a small town, not Providence Rhode Island.

    What I am getting at is that it seems that the city has a culture of sadism. It extends far beyond the 6 cops and 3 councilmen and to the higher ups who covered it up. The city officials and other cops who went along with the culture of sadism without taking a stand. They are all culpable as well. If the DA or the FBI can’t charge them with a crime, they have to get fired. All of them. If the residents do not insist on cleaning house than the culture of sadism that has engrossed Fullerton will not change.

    Purge the authoritarian minds from the city or it will happen again.

    1. Agree, there does seem to be a sadistic thread running through the establishment that is weakening the moral fabric of the comunity.

  53. COP,S SUCK THAY THINK WE ARE SHEEP AND NEED TO BE TOLD HOW TO ACT AROUND THEM.FUCK OFF AND KISS MY TIGER LOVEING ASS!!! [ THE LSU TIGER WHISPERER ] MR. DARRELL BEZET BATON ROUGE LA.

  54. 9c1copcar :
    KRUPKE,
    I toally agree that the Watch Commander on duty, )usually a Lt.), saw everything that was taking place via the pole camera. They have a positive duty to contact their officers and call a halt to proceedings in all cases that involve danger to the public. They obviously saw the excessive use of force and did nothing. I would also charge them with criminal negligence in this case.

    It is the reason the chief ran away…

    check this vid.. seemed like a nice enough guy.. just not enough of a dirty wolf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbDopFi0Zds
    Thank you Travis

  55. 9c1copcar,

    The cycle does make sense seeing it in writing. Of course, many people don’t want to rock the boat and face retribution down the line. Happened to me. An officer tried to over-charge my son for something dumb he and his friends did; charge was reduced.

    6 months later, I’m stopped in a checkpoint, I had stupidly let my driver’s license lapse – forgot to turn in the paperwork. Officer who stopped me was the same officer who dealt with my son. We have an unusual last name, so I’m sure he recognized it. Instead of giving me a citation, he charged me with a misdemeanor requiring me to appear before the judge with proof of my new license. The court clerks that I went to were in shock that I had been charged like that. they said they had never seen it happen before. This same officer also threatened to arrest me, because when I was stopped, I was kind of squawking about how I couldn’t believe this had happened. He said “if you don’t like this, I could arrest you”. I stopped, looked right at him and said “hey, I never said anything to you or about you. I am not angry at you, I am angry at the situation. You can at least let me vent!”
    He backed off at that point. The thing is, I didn’t even realize it was the same officer that dealt with my son until I got home and looked at the ticket. He sure knew, though.

    I did go to the police station about a month later and just asked WHY I got the harsher charge over the infraction? The officer on duty kind of hemmed and hawed and gave a rather lame explanation, so I pretty much just said, “it’s ok, I get it, thank you” and left. That is just one example. I’ve got a dozen of them, from friends and co-workers.

    In my area, it is mainly the teens who get hassled. Most adults don’t make a public outcry, because they don’t want to rock the boat, and they don’t want to make the climate worse for their teens. Imagine, kids get stopped and searched for no reason and mom complains . What do you think will happen to that kid and his friends next time the officer sees them? He is not going to buy them and ice cream cone, that’s for sure!

    It’s funny, though, because it was the kids themselves who drew attention to the issue. The local high school paper did a meticulous expose on the police and how the misdemeanor arrests in our suburb were twice as high as neighboring communities. The story was so well researched it was reported on by the local news agencies. Definitely put the police on the defense. Can’t tell if it worked because my oldest son is away at school and doesn’t give the the local gossip anymore. Middle child is entering the teen years, and, sadly, I’ve been teaching him that some officers are good, but some are not and if you, god forbid, are witness to something or involved in something where the police want to talk to you, Keep your mouth shut until mom or dad arrive. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would have to teach my children this. I was naive, that’s for sure.

  56. You are correct. We need to clean house. I am a residents with my eyes open NOW! I was too complient before. I am watchin…..

  57. CAT 94925 asks why there is “…less professionalism and more brutishness” in today’s police force. The people blaming the police unions for much of that disturbing downward trend are correct.

    The police unions have created a situation where it far more difficult to get rid of the bad apple cops. At the same time, it is nowadays far easier for officers suspected, with good reason, of committing some of the vilest crimes imaginable, to wallow in public trough, as apparently the suspects in the Kelly Thomas’ horrible torture-death will be wallowing for many months, if not years.

    Before police unions consolidated their powers so thoroughly, any police chief worth his salt would weed out any sadists and criminals from the ranks of his department and many U. S. police chiefs did exactly that. Now, it doesn’t really matter if you have a decent chief or a dud like Sellers, the chief’s hands are tied by the union. The rotten apples who would formerly exit the force with the chief’s boot in their rear end, to the applause of all the good
    officers, are now allowed to hang around and pollute the entire department, thanks to the unions.

    Take a look at the two fine gentlemen charged in the Thomas death. Frankly, if I knew nothing about them and saw them even picking up my trash I would be so creeped out that I would have a hard time sleeping that night. Union members in good standing of course. We can also consider the illustrious “spokesman” who has become one of the most notorious public liars in the U. S. How “shocking” that according to reports, this shining example is a big power in the union!

    The really sad thing is, unless the police unions can be cut down to size, more and more riff-raff will be attracted to policing: to a cowardly, twisted individual what other job requiring so little education pays so highly, while also making the promise to you that if you are caught redhanded beating and torturing someone to death you are going to –thanks to the amazing generosity of your union — get the finest criminal lawyer money can buy and enjoy a highly-paid vacation while you await your acquittal or your judicial tap on the wrist.

  58. Fullerton Recaller on September 23, 2011

    Respect is a 2 way street. You get what you give. That is a concept that has lost its importance in today’s Fullerton.
    So sad to see this happen to my home.

    Sadly, this has been happening across the country for years, and it is only getting worse.

  59. CAT,

    If something like that happens again, where you are, or feel that you are charged inappropriately, call the Watch Commander or the Captain of said station, have a sit down conference with them, and demand they give you an explanation for the officer’s decision.
    They may just dismiss the ticket/charge.

  60. Contacted for penal or vehicle code violation. Talk shit. Go to jail. Get it?

    Stud Lee :
    Lies?
    Your quote, not mine: “Yes, I’ve probably taken every person that has talked shit to jail for a penal code or vehicle code violation.”
    Black and white.

    1. Riiiight. Because the only times in your life you’ve EVER been talked sh*t to are during lawful contact. Riiiiight. You are different from the rest of us and have never ever been disrespected outside of your job. Sure buddy.

  61. Thanks everyone for the support and comments. I really, truly believe that every town in America should have a civic-minded blog like FFFF where the community can come together to share information about what is wrong with their political leaders and institutions and how the citizens can retake control. I’m grateful to Tony, Travis and the rest of the bloggers on here for inspiring hope that together we can bring meaningful reform and change to our community.

    One last thing on the topic of cops – I know there are really good cops out there. I just want that to be the norm and the standard to which all are held.

  62. “Talk shit, go to jail” – Sounds like a violation of first amendment right to me…….

    Why shouldn’t I be able to say whatever I want to an LEO? As long as I’m not directly threatening them I don’t see an issue with speaking my mind.

    People do it all the time in customer service jobs.. Ever heard of a bad customer mouthing off to someone and asking to speak to a manager or to corporate? That’s what people in customer service do every day – take abuse from people.

    So answer me this question Reality Is, are police not in the business of customer service?

    1. You don’t have the authority.

      You just have clowns like Bankhead, Jones and McPension ceding civilian oversight of your cesspool.

  63. I hate to say it but RI is right in this case.

    If you’re in violation of a pc or vc section it’s not wise to talk shit as the officer usually has the discretion to arrest you.

    This was established in a SCOTUS case out of TX- can’t recall the name, but I believe the gist was a TX officer arrested a woman over a very minor offense instead of citing her.

    She appealed all the way to the US Supreme Court, and lost – thus establishing a precedent.

        1. On WordPress (which is what this is) you can turn on the option for “Gravatars” that automatically show a picture when the correct name and email address are inputted into the box. So unless the impostor could guess one’s email address, the wrong picture would show up. Simple and doesn’t require anyone to login (which people are allergic to for some reason).
          http://en.gravatar.com/

  64. Typical abuse of power the way I see it.

    If an LEO wants to arrest me for a very minor offense so be it. I still have the freedom to say what I want, and if indeed it is a minor offense the “offender” will be back on the street in minutes.

    A judge will look at this as a complete waste of time and again, a complete abuse of power.

  65. The police unions protect their own while the Prison Gaurd Union, the most powerful union in California, pushes for draconion laws to ensure unending prison growth. We have a Golden Gulag in this state that is filled with non-violent offenders. It is enough to lead you to despise unions.

  66. Let’s pull a good old fashioned Ron Reagan style union bust up a la the 1980’s. That’ll out their ranks a bit.

    Police unions. What are they good for. nothing. Who wants police unions. No one.

  67. I have a great (off topic) idea.

    Reality Is v. 9c1copcar in an MMA style match, to be recorded/uploaded to YouTube

    Loser agrees to leave FFFF forever.

    1. Why do you want them to leave? Isn’t everyone’s opinion valid? Even if some disagree? I’ve learned something from both as I have from everybody else.

  68. i like 9c1copcar, let’s keep him.

    Reality Is is way too much fun to read.

    The worst trolls are the ones that won’t identify themselves by a consistent username.

  69. I’m not even going to take the time to read any responses so I apologize if somebody else has already said it…but this is out of line. I have been around here a bit, usually trying to just say why i support this or that…but I go to every single protest without something like this in my mind. Not all cops are bad. I understand the metaphor of “don’t kill me if i offend you”, but seriously weed out the bad, but at least keep some class and recognize the cops do serve a purpose. That purpose isn’t assaulting and killing so focus on the case

  70. CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE INCIDENT

    On July 5, 2011, at 8:23 p.m., FPD Dispatch received a call reporting a “homeless” man looking in car windows and pulling on handles of parked cars in the FTC parking lot. Officer Wolfe and a second officer in a separate patrol vehicle were contacted by FPD Dispatch at 8:34 p.m. to respond. Why does it take 11 minutes?

  71. Jeffy says, “Who wants police unions? No one.”
    Of course the sub-performers always want them. And the one’s who know they would have been fired long ago without their union, love their union. I strongly suspect that our gruesome twosome — the hulking troglodyte
    and fat, sadistic, cowardly weasel — have been stinking up the FPD for years. Even if you would have had a real chief instead of a garden slug running the place, how could get rid of them?

    You think a chief wants to spend the next few years getting sued by a union who has more money and better lawyers than he does? So, all the chief can do is hope the stinkers he has no hope of getting rid of don’t do anything unusually atrocious — but in this case he was likely somewhat disappointed (not by the atrocity, of course, but by the fact it could not be swept under the carpet)…

  72. Honestly, there are some good points and somewhat off points on both sides.

    I think, currently, one of the best solutions is to follow in the steps of Long Beach City and hire the Orange County Sheriff Department while an in-depth investigation into the Fullerton City PD can be made.

    There were similar out-cries of corruption and problems in the streets of Long Beach before the decision to basically clean house in the LBPD in the late 1970s.

    The actual PD and the union need to be looked into before anything else gets out of hand. People are still having a typical “knee-jerk” reaction to all of this. People are angry and possibly scared – taking out their frustrations on the easiest targets they can. Not every cop is out to get you.

    I’ve known several cops, and I did take part in the Explorer program when I was younger. At most of the training sessions they force recruits to go through, you have to feel what it’s like to get a healthy respect of what you might have to do to someone if a situation gets out of hand. Ever had pepper spray willingly shot in your face just so you could get an idea on what will happen if you HAVE to use it on someone? They do.

    I have a healthy respect for a lot of cops. The petty ones who nail you for something stupid (like having a filed police report from another city AND paperwork from DMV stating you have replacement license plates on the way and they STILL ticket you after your front license plate is stolen) kind of irritate me, but that is very far and few between.

    So while I can understand the outrage….the reaches of this outrage have far reached the limits of what should be considered acceptable.

    Something is going to give. And it may give in such a way that something really bad happens. It should be stopped before then.

    P.S. – Honestly….did the Rodney King event in the 90s teach the FPD anything? Why are things like this still happening?

  73. I can’t believe some of you are falling for this crap from “Reality Is.” I have been posting here regularly for quite a while, ever since I first found out what happened. And I VERY CLEARLY remember all the idiotic comments that “Reality Is” posted a few weeks ago.

    – He stated adamantly that “none of the cops would be charged.” He said this SEVERAL times.

    – He also made insensitive comments which he knew would infuriate people, and he did so deliberately. Such as “Kelly Thomas resisted arrest and got into a fight with the cops and he got his ass kicked.”

    Don’t any of you remember what he had been saying all along?

    In fact, I’m going to try to dig through earlier blog comments, and I’ll post the quotes from him. You’d be completely disgusted with the things he was saying, if you really don’t remember.

    So don’t fall for his trick. He alternates between being a total sadistic cop kiss-up who defended the 6 cops without question, to trying to sound more rational at other times. It’s a classic case of doublespeak. He’s just hoping you guys won’t remember EVERYTHING ELSE he has been saying all this time.

    If Tony won’t ban him, I really wish he would at least post a list of the other screen names that he has been using.

    I’m sure most of you know by now that the person going by the name “Wow” is the other infamous troll “janybound.” It’s the same person.

    What I’m wondering is if the retired LAPD cop who emailed John and Ken and made idiotic comments about Ron Thomas…has he been here in the blog comments too? It could be the same person. Because he sound an awful lot like jaynbound to me. The same vocabulary and tone. In fact, I think even some of the same phrases.

    We’re probably never going to know if “Reality Is” is actually a cop or not. But one thing is for sure, he did not come here to express a dissenting opinion. His whole purpose for being here was to try to hijack the blog and derail the discussion. He also thought for sure that the cops were going to get off, and at some point even he realized that wasn’t going to happen, so he suddenly changed the tone of his comments. They were still just as sadistic and egotistical, but now he wasn’t saying that “none of the cops would be charged” anymore.

    Like I said, just remember everything he had been saying 2 or 3 weeks ago.

    By the way, as a few of you might remember, I said that I was going to go to Fullerton to do a little “investigating” of my own. And I did. I’ve been there twice now, and I found out a few things which make me realize that this is nowhere near over.

    I’m sure this is obvious by now, but the Slidebar is in fact a cop hangout. It’s not speculation anymore, it’s an observed fact. Like I said earlier, people will say and do some interesting things if they don’t think anyone is listening.

    I’ll elaborate on more later if I get a chance to go back out there.

    1. I understand your frustration. Some of us do remember what has been posted under the username “Reality Is.” We choose not to let ourselves become distracted from the issue at hand. We can choose not to react to inflammatory statements but address them in a rational way. Or choose to ignore them. It is good in many ways for those comments to be posted here because it brings to light what the attitude is and also the level of ignorance (and I don’t use the word ignorance in a demeaning way) is among some people who may or may not be police officers and who may or may not be residents of Fullerton. This shows what Kelly Thomas was up against. Perhaps some of us have chosen to be a different kind of “troll” if you will–a troll for truth and justice, a troll to educate the uneducated, a troll to shed light on the darkness, to respond to the unreasonable with reason, to model unprofessional demeanor with professional demeanor. Take the high road and stay on the high road. We must be careful that we don’t become what we defend against.

      1. “to model unprofessional demeanor with professional demeanor” should read “to counter unprofessional demeanor with professional demeanor.”

    2. Correct. I did say he ran and fought and that all 6 cops wouldnt be charged. Said it many times.

      Remember that people steal my name, as they did last night.

      I say my opinions on here, just like you.

      No tricks. Just treats.

  74. Speaking of respect and cops here is a cop that did get fired for flying off the handle about “respect.” Please notice how he threatens and manhandles a 14 year old.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOr3q7nrk

    Now prior to this, this same cop acts in a similar fashion to young adult man.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Mts9gMGKo

    If police want to have respect, they must act in a respectful manner at all times, not just when they know they are being filmed. Even at that, they sometimes get God complexes and act like crips with badges. Makes me wonder how many Kelly Thomas’ there have been.

  75. blessusall :
    I understand your frustration. Some of us do remember what has been posted under the username “Reality Is.” We choose not to let ourselves become distracted from the issue at hand. We can choose not to react to inflammatory statements but address them in a rational way. Or choose to ignore them. It is good in many ways for those comments to be posted here because it brings to light what the attitude is and also the level of ignorance (and I don’t use the word ignorance in a demeaning way) is among some people who may or may not be police officers and who may or may not be residents of Fullerton. This shows what Kelly Thomas was up against. Perhaps some of us have chosen to be a different kind of “troll” if you will–a troll for truth and justice, a troll to educate the uneducated, a troll to shed light on the darkness, to respond to the unreasonable with reason, to model unprofessional demeanor with professional demeanor. Take the high road and stay on the high road. We must be careful that we don’t become what we defend against.

  76. Indeed, great post. In my opinion people who work for this government in this day and age deserve no respect and only deserve our anger and hate for turning this country into the most violent and unChristian place in the world. We will change, We will be FREE again, We will stop the wars on foreign countries and on our own people, WE WILL BRING BACK LOVE AND PEACE TO AMERICA!

  77. jeffy :
    Let’s pull a good old fashioned Ron Reagan style union bust up a la the 1980′s. That’ll out their ranks a bit.
    Police unions. What are they good for. nothing. Who wants police unions. No one.

    I have over 40 years in the teamsters union. A LABORER NOT A COP. I support collective bargining in the private sector, these bastards deserve to have their union dismantled. It’s an hourly event of the damages and abuses these animals do. They are protected by ancient agreements which they exploit.
    It is disturbing to look at the videos of the Kelly Thomas execution that are public. We the public are only seeing the videos they could not confiscate and destroy.

  78. jeffy :
    Typical abuse of power the way I see it.
    If an LEO wants to arrest me for a very minor offense so be it. I still have the freedom to say what I want, and if indeed it is a minor offense the “offender” will be back on the street in minutes.
    A judge will look at this as a complete waste of time and again, a complete abuse of power.

    If LEO gets you alone you’ll wish you were never born and he will have his animal pals back everything he says happen and have the last laugh when your life is destroyed.

  79. Why don’t we hear ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ when ever dealing with gov. employees. They ALWAYS have some ‘intent’ or ‘knowingly’ bullshit statement. I’ve never heard those terms with the poor bastards they beat and cage everyday.

  80. That is truly amazing!! And very true JT!! It is time the police respect us…the people who pay them!!! Its our taxpayers money that is giving them a job and for them to fly off the handle and beat us for what they feel is disrespect to them, is a call for a removal of their job!

  81. BUT.. The DA is a Hero .. he charged a cop with Murder.. he will be so revered.. except like most all his cases.. he loses……

    and he let the other four murderers put badges back on and police your children and wives and family members

  82. One word that has been overused for a couple of generations now is “Nazi”, and I in fact have seen it greatly overused quite a few times in this blog lately. When you use a word thoughtlessly, it starts to lose its meaning. People forget the hideous reality behind the label.

    Just because someone wears a uniform does not make him a Nazi. Because I might be speeding and get a ticket, that does not make the officer who writes the deserved ticket a Nazi. People who use the term in such a silly fashion merely renders it meaningless.

    That being said, having studied history, I can tell you this: I have seen from certain posters in this group a troubling state of mind that is disturbingly akin to that of the Nazis.

    Not knowing history, many people today think that the Nazis only victimized others on the basis of race and ethnicity, because that is the part of the Nazis we hear most about. That leads to a smug, dismissive attitude sort of like, “How could I have anything like a Nazi mentality? *I* don’t harbor any hatred against the racial groups which the Nazis tried to exterminate.”

    In same cases, the attitude gets even more smug, sort of like, “*I* certainly have nothing in common with the Nazis, in fact my ancestry puts me in one of the groups that the Nazis tried to murder.”

    What people conveniently forget, though, is that the Nazis did not only try to exterminate racial and ethnic groups they did not like. They also attacked and murdered people in many other groups, such as the homeless and the mentally ill. This has been very well-documented by historians.

    Less fortunate people in Hitler’s society were branded by him and his murderous ilk as “parasites”, etc. They were often exterminated with the same cold-blooded zeal by which members of “bad” racial and ethnic groups were slaughtered.

    Now that the rest of the world has had opportunity to study the hideous reality of the Nazis, we know the Nazis played a very old, very evil power game. By pointing their bloody fingers at all sorts of racial groups (as well as unpopular social groups), the Nazis duped their ignorant and unthinking drones into doing the Nazis’ dirty work while failing to notice that the Nazis were the biggest and foulest parasites of all, stealing at a level the world has rarely seen in a government (except perhaps in Stalin’s Russia) and commiting all sorts of horrible crimes. It can be said that typically one Nazi hand was bloody and the other hand was filthy with theft and many other crimes.

    No, I don’t throw the word “Nazi” around, because I have actually studied history and I know what the term represents. When I read posters to this group say things suggesting that Kelly Thomas deserved to die because he was mentally ill or a “non-contributor” I see a particularly vile mentality at work, an attitude that the Nazis would have applauded. When I read posters dripping with pure hatred to the extent they even attack Kelly’s father, the same sort of mentality shows itself. When I hear a caller to the John and Ken show say that Kelly Thomas was hobo and that all hobos should be beaten to death with a club, I hear echoes of the evil, anti-life words and actions of the Nazis.

    When “Joe Sixpack” has an attitude which makes him a Nazi soulmate, normal people will think that is disgusting and pathetic, true. But after all, we have freedom of speech and freedom of thought, so “Joe Sixpack” can think what he wants to. Loathsome as his the attitude is, I respect his right to hold it.

    However, when a police officer has such an attitude, that is dangerous to the the public welfare because it means that every encounter with a homeless person or anyone else in a “despised social group” such as the mentally ill may quickly escalate into a lethal encounter,
    because even most mentally ill people can sense when they are encountered by someone who is dripping with hatred toward them.

    Further, just as the Nazis stirred up the murderous hatred of their willing chumps against — not only racial groups — but also groups such as the homeless or the mentally ill, it is clear that at least some of that age old deceit and cowardly scapegoating was at work in the Kelly Thomas incident.

    We have seen a mayor ranting about “getting tough” with homeless folks in a downtown area. Bad economic times? Money not stretching far enough? Well, get tough with that dirty, disturbed homeless fellow annoying the denizens of the slimiest tavern in town. Beat him with a club, torture him. He doesn’t
    count, after all. Get rid of him as brutally as possible and then you won’t feel so bad about being squeezed for money in this economy, and hopefully you won’t notice the bloated saleries and the dirty deals engaged in by the folks pulling your strings…

    It work for the Nazis, for a while…

  83. BTR :
    Speaking of respect and cops here is a cop that did get fired for flying off the handle about “respect.” Please notice how he threatens and manhandles a 14 year old.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOr3q7nrk
    Now prior to this, this same cop acts in a similar fashion to young adult man.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Mts9gMGKo
    If police want to have respect, they must act in a respectful manner at all times, not just when they know they are being filmed. Even at that, they sometimes get God complexes and act like crips with badges. Makes me wonder how many Kelly Thomas’ there have been.

    You know, I remember seeing that video of the cop abusing that kid too. I was so furious about that. That poor little kid…you can see how terrified he was. The cop is like 3 or 4 times the size of that kid, and was pushing him around like a rag doll. And what was the kid’s big “crime” ? He was riding a skateboard. That’s all. And the cop KNEW he was being RECORDED, and still assaulted the kid.

    I’m wondering what that cop would have done to the kid if he had got him alone, with no video recording and no witnesses. The thought makes me sick.

    I think you’re right, there probably have been a lot of other victims out there, and which just don’t know about it because there wasn’t a recording. And it sickens me to say it, but I would not be surprised if some of the other victims have been children. Like the kid in that video.

  84. BTR :
    Speaking of respect and cops here is a cop that did get fired for flying off the handle about “respect.” Please notice how he threatens and manhandles a 14 year old.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOr3q7nrk
    Now prior to this, this same cop acts in a similar fashion to young adult man.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Mts9gMGKo
    If police want to have respect, they must act in a respectful manner at all times, not just when they know they are being filmed. Even at that, they sometimes get God complexes and act like crips with badges. Makes me wonder how many Kelly Thomas’ there have been.

    In an ideal world the whole crowd should have jumped on him and beat him and restrained him.. maybe

    take his taser and taser him 4 times in the head and chest
    then when the battery goes dead they would bash his skull 8 times and for good measure knee drop his throat and lungs

  85. Anonymous :

    BTR :
    Speaking of respect and cops here is a cop that did get fired for flying off the handle about “respect.” Please notice how he threatens and manhandles a 14 year old.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOr3q7nrk
    Now prior to this, this same cop acts in a similar fashion to young adult man.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Mts9gMGKo
    If police want to have respect, they must act in a respectful manner at all times, not just when they know they are being filmed. Even at that, they sometimes get God complexes and act like crips with badges. Makes me wonder how many Kelly Thomas’ there have been.

    You know, I remember seeing that video of the cop abusing that kid too. I was so furious about that. That poor little kid…you can see how terrified he was. The cop is like 3 or 4 times the size of that kid, and was pushing him around like a rag doll. And what was the kid’s big “crime” ? He was riding a skateboard. That’s all. And the cop KNEW he was being RECORDED, and still assaulted the kid.
    I’m wondering what that cop would have done to the kid if he had got him alone, with no video recording and no witnesses. The thought makes me sick.
    I think you’re right, there probably have been a lot of other victims out there, and which just don’t know about it because there wasn’t a recording. And it sickens me to say it, but I would not be surprised if some of the other victims have been children. Like the kid in that video.

    My fear is that some of the unsolved cold cases for murdered homeless ppl have been a case of murder by cop and they will never be solved because of that. That thought is in my mind now simply because the chilling calls for help from Kelly Thomas will NEVER leave my mind. We have some truly sick personalities wearing uniforms and badges.

  86. BTR :

    Anonymous :

    BTR :
    Speaking of respect and cops here is a cop that did get fired for flying off the handle about “respect.” Please notice how he threatens and manhandles a 14 year old.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOr3q7nrk
    Now prior to this, this same cop acts in a similar fashion to young adult man.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Mts9gMGKo
    If police want to have respect, they must act in a respectful manner at all times, not just when they know they are being filmed. Even at that, they sometimes get God complexes and act like crips with badges. Makes me wonder how many Kelly Thomas’ there have been.

    You know, I remember seeing that video of the cop abusing that kid too. I was so furious about that. That poor little kid…you can see how terrified he was. The cop is like 3 or 4 times the size of that kid, and was pushing him around like a rag doll. And what was the kid’s big “crime” ? He was riding a skateboard. That’s all. And the cop KNEW he was being RECORDED, and still assaulted the kid.
    I’m wondering what that cop would have done to the kid if he had got him alone, with no video recording and no witnesses. The thought makes me sick.
    I think you’re right, there probably have been a lot of other victims out there, and which just don’t know about it because there wasn’t a recording. And it sickens me to say it, but I would not be surprised if some of the other victims have been children. Like the kid in that video.

    My fear is that some of the unsolved cold cases for murdered homeless ppl have been a case of murder by cop and they will never be solved because of that. That thought is in my mind now simply because the chilling calls for help from Kelly Thomas will NEVER leave my mind. We have some truly sick personalities wearing uniforms and badges.

    YOUR HORRIBLE FEAR MAY BE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT. THESE ARE COLD BLOODED SADISTS.
    NO NORMAL PERSON WOULD STAND 20 FEET AWAY AND NOT BE DISTURBED BY THE PLEADS FOR MERCY. WE ARE STUCK WITH A FORCE OF SOCIOPATHS DESTROYING OUR COMMUNITY AND TEARING OUR HEARTS OUT AND LAUGHING ABOUT IT. THE BOSSES ENJOYED THE FUNTIME PLUGGED INTO THEIR MAN CAVE BACK AT THE ASYLUM IN REAL TIME. LIVE ACTION.
    ANOTHER POINT I BET THE MONSTERS WISH NOW THAT THERE WERE NOT SO MANY CAMERAS.
    1984 HAS FINALLY CAUGHT UP TO THE
    “BOYS IN BLUE”

  87. Anonymous :
    Why don’t we hear ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ when ever dealing with gov. employees. They ALWAYS have some ‘intent’ or ‘knowingly’ bullshit statement. I’ve never heard those terms with the poor bastards they beat and cage everyday.

    The double standard exists that is why. The cops shit on the public and the Kelly movement may be the start of positive changes in the system.
    If I were a cop in Fullerton I’d uss my built in exit strategy and follow Seller’s out the door and then hope they don’t scrutinize my medical records.
    Hey out there anyone have Cheif seller’s disability doctor’s name and phone number. I want to get prepared before he’s put out of business.

  88. I’d like you all to remember one thing. During the LA riots the LAPD stood down and didn’t protect the citizenry and allowed the city to be looted and burned. This is a fact. Men dressed in LAPD uniforms were also throwing Molotov cocktails through the windows of Korean store fronts.

    Arm yourselves to the teeth and don’t be so foolish as to believe that these cops will protect and serve you because they have no power to do either.

    BTW, my grandfather was a criminal who controlled the chief of police of a US state capitol. My father was taken to school every morning in a black and white unit as a “courtesy” to my grandfather, the criminal.

    Police chiefs are employees. Look at the recent Ronnie Chasen contract hit. Does anyone in their right mind believe this was the act of a robber as the Beverly Hills police chief said? And what would happen to this police chief should he reopen the case?

    Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison for more than 40 years for killing Bobby Kennedy, yet all evidence shows he was 3 feet in front of Kennedy who was shot in the back of his head. What do you think would happen if the LAPD chief reopened this case? He would be where Ronnie Chasen is now.

    Don’t be fooled and don’t be manipulated by the media.

  89. This was a letter to the editor in today’s paper.
    Taken from the Whittier Daily News

    Re: The Fullerton police officer who donned gloves and told homeless and schizophrenic Kelly Thomas, “Now see my fists? They are getting ready to F you up.” Good to see the cop is finally facing murder charges, although four of the six cops won’t face any charges for killing this man. What is scary is that had this incident not been recorded on recording devices by the public, these police officers would have gotten away with murder. They still might. They say he was “resisting arrest” and not following orders. This is the cops’ standard excuse for beating up the public.
    What is even scarier is that this behavior is just the tip of the iceberg; police and sheriff’s department beatings happen all of the time behind closed doors where they are never recorded by horrified bystanders and where nothing is done even if the behavior is reported in an “incident report.”

    My son survived one of these beatings in 2008 where he was put into a room, handcuffed to a stationary object, sprayed in the face with pepper spray which threw him into a severe asthmatic attack, then put into a choke hold and beaten and kicked while he was blinded with pepper spray and fighting to breathe. He was left in the room for hours before someone even offered him a rag to wipe off the pepper spray. Nobody was there to film this incident and reporting it to the Sheriff’s Department didn’t even warrant a return phone call. And you know what? This happened after the Sheriff’s Department was
    notified that my son is schizophrenic and they had finished transporting him to a facility to “better meet his psychiatric needs.”
    This is what it means to “serve and protect” these days. And the public has no recourse against the cops who feel they can get away with whatever they want to because there is no penalty paid by these rogue cops and no video of the beatings most of the time. The lawyers I contacted about my son’s case said it would cost over $100,000 just to find out what happened, and that in most of these cases “incident reports disappear and witnesses dry up.” Good luck to Kelly Thomas’ family. I hope you get the justice my son never got. But I still have my son alive, no thanks to the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department, and my heart goes out to the Thomas family.

    Judy L. Kinder

    Hacienda Heights

  90. Good grief, that poor woman and her son-watch out all God complexed PD’s everywhere-the people (us) are filming and recording your asses now-we’ve had it with you “above the law” attitudes- those days are over for you SOBS-

    you hear loud and clear? – 10-4
    this is not your playground in Russia

  91. Protect yourself FROM corrupt Cops.

    When I watch this I can’t help but imagine this is how this cop was raised. It’s like he’s mirroring his father (or whoever raised him) while he’s flipping out here. It’s a learned behavior. This is the shit that needs to be screened out through psychological testing before giving these guys a badge and a gun. Sadly, I think this the mentality that is encouraged on the force. This is what needs to change.

  92. I have an imposter out there and seems to know I have a small penis and spend all day going through these posts line by line because I need to defend my small manhood.
    Please imposter stop talking about me.

  93. I wept when I watched the last City Council meeting, as each citizen came forward to speak, some who also cried. You could see the anger but there was also this deep sense of hurt, betrayal. I cried for Kelly, I cried for the people of Fullerton, I cried for all of us, really, but I also cried because of the compassion, the commitment, the courage, and the determination demonstrated by the citizens who showed up. I can’t get this case out of my mind and my heart; it has touched me deeply.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.