HATE CRIME WAVE AFFLICTS ORANGE COUNTY
The OC Human Relations Commission, and it’s Executive Director Rusty Kennedy have announced that last year saw a staggering 14% spike in “hate crimes” perpetrated in Orange County.
Now that sounds pretty awful, until you realize that the crime wave led to a total of 64 incidents in 2011. 64. And that means that the year before, 2010, the total was 56; the increase equals 8.
Now I’m not going to diminish the importance of any crime, however, I note that 64 annual incidents, let alone an annual increase of 8, in a county of 3,500,000, is statistically useless as an indicator of anything. My calculator won’t even do the math.
Of course the fact that the County still pays $300,000 per year to support the Commission in its effort to drum up work for itself is bad enough. But here’s a question I’d like answered, Rusty, if it’s not too much trouble: did you count the murder of Kelly Thomas by members of the Fullerton Police Department as a hate crime? If not, why not.
214 Replies to “HATE CRIME WAVE AFFLICTS ORANGE COUNTY”
Bushala had plenty of opportunity to provide a dissenting voice on the OC Human Relations Commission and call BS on Rusty Kennedy, when he was Chris Norby’s appointee. The problem was Bushala never bothered to get sworn in until Norby re-appointed him to the Commission almost two years later. And even then Bushala was mostly a no-show.
Kind of hollow to rag on Rusty when King Tony couldn’t be bothered to do anything about him wen he had the chance.
Tony didn’t write this. I did.
If I were to guess I’d say Bushala realized what a feel-good circle jerk this commission is. But of course he is free to answer that himself if he wishes to.
BTW, the pedophile protecting priest John Urell was nominated be on it.
“Now I’m not going to diminish the importance of any crime…”
And yet that’s just what you did.
Folks, the Golem just jumped into the fray!
Incorrect. I diminished the significance of the statistics that Kennedy uses to race hustle and keep himself employed by the taxpayers even though he is retired on a FULL County pension.
Why are these guys allowed to double dip? I think if they keep working they should either have to put off collecting any pension until they really retire, or lose the pension altogether. If they retire and take a pension, then they should be required to actually retire, otherwise keep working with no pension. There I said it twice…
Sure you did.
(1) In a disparaging article, you put “hate crimes” in scare quotes as if it’s not a serious or legitimate concern. Substitute “date rape” or “police brutality” into those scare quotes and see what it looks like to you.
(2) Your statistical argument is equivalent to saying “the number of homeless people beaten to death by Fullerton Police at the Transportation Center only went up from 0 to 1” (and then you might add) “just an eighth of the increase in hate crimes!”
(3) You fail to note what a hate crime *is* (an act intended to terrorize a particular demographic subcommunity by making an example of one of its members), which leads both to your misguided question about counting the Kelly Thomas killing (which might qualify as one if its aim was to convince all homeless people to get out of town — but that doesn’t seem to be it) and to your failure to recognize that this sort of commission may be doing a good job even if the numbers go down, because its mission is to prevent more than to punish hate crimes. With all the guns and vitriol around here, we don’t know how many crimes would occur without it. (And I’ll grant you: we don’t know either way.)
So, yeah, you’re diminishing the importance of hate crimes by inviting people to think that money spent trying to prevent them is a waste of taxpayer money. (Also: we’re not a county of 3,500,000. They just published a census last year.)
Damn Greg, try reading. Van debunked the whole statistical nonsense Rusty is peddling below. Here’s the most relevant bit:
“Rusty Kennedy’s graph showing “64 Hate Crimes”does not reflect the findings of Orange County District Attorney’s office on this topic.
Out of Kennedy’s 64 “hate crimes” the district attorney only found 27 came close to meeting definition of hate crime. From this number, the OC DA rejected 14 of them. All total, only eleven incidents in Orange County met the definition of hate crime.”
So in fact, the meanings of what a “hate crime” is are contested between the OCDA and Rusty. So putting “hate crimes” in quotes isn’t “disparaging” them, its showing that there is variability in that definition. So much for point 1 and point 2. Point 3 is just stupid.
Uh, where’s van der’s “debunking” again? In the article? Above mine in this thread, where I’d be expected to have seen it? Oh — tucked away somewhere below. Well no wonder you say “try reading” — one should always read all of the comments to a story before commenting. I may try doing so later — but as it seems to be a question of how much one credits the judgment of the DA, who has his own reasons for wanting the number of hate crimes to be low, I may be harder than you to impress.
Greg, a little late, but I did post mine before yours, look closely
Oh, crikey — your complaint is that Kennedy combined “hate crimes” and “hate incidents”? Fine — I amend and resubmit my previous comment accordingly, replacing “hate crimes” with “hate crimes and/or hate incidents.” Your move.
The OCDA prosecutes all kinds of stupid cases, so for them not to prosecute all of those “incidents” means they are quite far from being “hate crimes.” Which means that all of Rusty’s statistics and the media coverage of them are misleading.
Greg, why do you lower the bar of awareness for rusty kennedy? He more than most people in the OC knows the definitive difference between hate crime and hate incident. the driving premise of rusty’s commission is to decrease hate crimes in the OC.
Pigeon German language…….. Huh?
Either that, or Tony wasn’t able to personally profit from the comission appointment thus his lack of enthusiasm.
Mr. Peabody how do we know you’re not Tony? He uses multiple names on this blog and you are very quick to answer for him.
I am not Tony. I swear.
Good for you for denying it.
(Of course, I’d also want to hear Tony deny it.)
Real Tony please stand up!
Golem, hears dark voices in his Mad Cow Diseased brain.
And how do we know you’re not Jan Flory. Prove it.
Why would a person name themselves after one of the worst new-wave hair bands of the 1980s? What’s next, Kajagoogoo?
Jan Flory is a new wave band? Verrrry Interesting!
She’s more of a punk rocker. Biggest hit: “I’m a Bitter Bag of Bile!”
What’s the over under on the number of names that Tony posts under?
I lay odds at 10. I think it’s over. Daily at least 5.
But … but … but … hasn’t he denied it?
Why havent you seen me in 12 years?
Figure in an increase/decrease in population density and see what the actual number is.
I agree. The killing of Kelly Thomas was actually a series of hate crimes perpetrated by each of the six.
Rusty should have counted these. It would have really spiked his stoopid chart.
Instead Kennedy colluded to hide the crimes under the carpet of the Homeless task Force, a really shameful diversion.
Can you prove it was a hate crime or are you just talking out your ass?
No, Freddie’s talking out of his ass as usual….he missed his estrogen shot this morning so he’s feeling a little cunty as usual.
Nice talk. I loved it when that dumb flatfoot Schoen got up and wailed about the vulgarity on this blog. What a hoot. Too bad he didn’t chastise all his blue-shirted buddies for being responsible!
… Physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse, insults, torture, murder, gang murder and human sacrifice for entertainment. Thomas is beyond a hate crime. He was a BDSM occult sacrifice. Fullerton responds: witticism, and complacency, but no outrage. Why? Fluoridated water, vaccinations, plenty of pink slime and Low intelligence.
Do you have prove this was a hate crime or you are just talking out your ass?
O randy snuggy wuggy stop typing it makes mommy upset.
“Hate crime” has a specific legal meaning. Please explain how you think that the killing of Kelly Thomas satisfies that definition. (This is a separate matter of whether the crime was motivated by “hatred” generically.) Feel free to use online resources to answer this question.
The cops hated him because he was mentally ill – a protected class, you numbskull.
The cops didn’t hate him and his death was an accident but your hatred as well as the hatred the tea bagging sycophants who run and visit this blog have for all public institutions cloud your judgement and ability to think rationally.
“His death was an accident.” Classic.
I guess for you complete and total denial equals rationality.
Was it? They claim accident to minimizee their responsibility. His death was deliberate, just listen to Cinielli…
In Anaheim, the cops showed up in force to quell a disturbance and used rubber bullets and a police dog against women and children bystanders watching the demonstration. The police do not like poor latino immigrants. Thus its a hate crime. Not reported by Rusty. I sure wish the Police Dog accidentally bit Rusty on the butt! Sorta like poetic justice!
The notion that by killing him the police were (well, actually “Cicinelli was”) trying to send a message of some kind to the mentally ill is theoretically plausible, but I don’t see much evidence for it. Sending a message to those who run away from the cops and are unfortunately unable to be cuffed before he arrives, perhaps, but that’s not a protected class.
“and are unfortunately unable to be cuffed”……… Hmmmmm
I think that you have been watching some BDSM porn flick playing with yourself instead of FPD horror documentary.
Exactly. A message would have been to kill him in a way that no one will ever have a clue who did it. In public, not a shot. Just clear the call and handle it later if you are a dirty cop out to kill people that piss you off.
Greg, if you were a schizophrenic, so psychotic that you believed living on Fullerton’s downtown streets was safer than living in a protected environment, and you as a homeless person witnessed the beating death of Kelly thomas by fullerton police officers what would you read in that event?
1. the police are my friends and will protect me from harm
2. the police lost it with Kelly but they wont hurt me
3. the police terrified me and I am moving to the park in anaheim where it is safer.
I bet you would choose #3 because as any student of literature is taught, even if the author of Kelly thomas death was just to savagely beat him in full view of the public, the homeless, schizophrenic reader takes from the author’s story the message he or she is hated by the Fullerton PD because he or she is schizophrenic and thus homeless.
USA today… Land of the I Tried Trophy. You probably didn’t see that soccer game where the police chased that kid onto the field, knocked him down and started beating him to death. The crowd swarmed and routed the police beating the hell out of them instead. In some cases, you are allowed to do this in the US, just California is the little EU, and if a cop wants to shove a baton up your ass and take pictures of it you have to stand there ads let him do it, or he can execute you. What part of this does not make sense? Grifters do this. We’re not talking honorable police officers. Were talking the same scum that make it into classrooms and opportunistic to do their BDSM thing at will. James W. Pitsor, George M. Gwaltney, Pete Wilson? Would you stand there and watch either of these monsters abduct just because their in uniform? In California, yes. California is the administrative pervert capital of the US. OMG!
We don’t have to guess, van — are there still homeless people in downtown Fullerton?
Regardless, for something to be a hate crime it’s not just “you must harm someone in a particular group” but “you must harm someone in a particular group to send a message of threat or disfavor to others in that group.” I don’t think that there was any message sending intended here. I think that there was beating intended, but to a seriously damaging degree pretty much only by Cicinelli, whose motivation seems to have been to impress Sheriff Andy.
the message sent to disabled by mental illness persons by Fullerton PD is they are hated evidenced by the beating death of kelly thomas.
I have read on this blog and other media sources of the harrassment of the mentally ill who are homeless by our local police force. Rousting the mentally ill is a hate crime
I agree with you there at the end — rousting the mentally ill is discrimination and could conceivably be a hate crime (if they extend into that sort of action, which I doubt, but maybe they should.) However, Kelly wasn’t killed because they hated mentally ill people. He was taken down and sat on while they tried to cuff him because in the opinion of police (rightly or wrongly) he disobeyed a lawful order and then fled, resisting arrest. He was beaten because Cicinelli is an overexcitable idiot.
after decades of the KKK terrorizing African-Americans in the United States, are there still African-Americans living in these same areas?
“Feel free to use online resources to answer this question.”……….. Hmmmmm
Obviously you should feel free to comment in “F”FFF but not in Golem’s Orange Juice oppresive blog.
To my knowledge, no one’s suspended but you, Stanley.
“To my knowledge”………. Hmmmmm
You do not have any, Golem.
According to this forum you are stupid as a doorknob.
“hate crime” is a traditional crime. arson, assault, vandalism must be present in a hate crime. If someone is rude, uses a derogative word to offend someone, this is rude behavior. It is not a crime.
A few years ago, if I remember correctly, Rusty Kennedy’s commission wanted to factor in comments to articles posted in the OC Register as evidence of hate crimes.
Why stop there? why not factor in all the rude gestures and slurs drivers on freeways and streets hurl at each other as hate crimes.
Hate crimes would rocket to unprecedented heights. And Rusty’s commission would live happily ever after feeding at the public trough and running interference between OC’s police battering and abusing the civil rights of the OC community. Spot on, Rusty
hey, just my opinion
Folks, you are CHASING YOUR TAILS! Your opinions are meaningless. When you see what is happening here you will have no problem putting yourselves to work on a militia. For the Time being, you are trying to hold the bed against the alarm clock. WAKE UP!
No Kelly’s death was not a hate crime, except that maybe he hated to obey our Heroes in the Thin Blue Line as they commanded him.
Our outstanding PD loves its citizens and their property and will patrol our neighborhoods looking for criminal opportunities as we sleep in our beds, unaware of the danger.
Back the Badge!
“Our outstanding PD loves its citizens and their property”
Yes. Rincon and Mejia, for starters!
Hey that name looks familiar. I thought that name was banned here on these parts? 🙂
I don’t want to tread on your fantasy, but… Isn’t that like black ops propaganda? Charm offensive and the double bind, like that?
Really BtB? That’s the best you can do from your bathroom stall this morning?
Poop, wipe, post, repeat. The misinformation campaign of the John Doe look alikes continues.
“The killing of Kelly Thomas was actually a series of hate crimes perpetrated by each of the six”………. Hmmmmmm
It was a crime committed by the COPs, done daily, against anyone who comes by their pass.
Latest one published would be the video of the LAPD Foothill division roughing up female nurse.
However, it would be interesting to disclose ethnic makeup of this commission since it appears to be heavily left-liberal-bolshevik biased.
The reason I like this blog is that every time a new article appears it is like feeding of Pirañas.
Maybe they should include Ron for Hating his kid so much he left him on the street. Then, pulled the plug on him.
Fortunately that is false crapola Honey Boy!
yes ron even paid the cops to beat and kill his son.
Why is there no record of any KTMF non profit organization? Because there isnt one. Look it up on the IRS page. None.
Because its all in Ron Thomas’ pocket.
This post is nothing but a way for FFFF to stir the pot. They love the drama when the people of the community are in disagreement.
nothing ever change unless they are-its a good thing
“They love the drama when the people of the community are in disagreement.”………. Hmmmmm
Freely translated old Bohemian cliché: “Truth upsets people”.
You do appear upset onanymous #2
Excellent reference to onanism. A lot of seed being spilled.
Not upset, just making a comment. Change is good but come on people.
You just figured that out?
Neurotic site. Many clever opinions. No solutions. It’s like being addicted to picking zits. Very adolescent mentality.
“Many clever opinions. No solutions.”……… Hmmmmm
Solution: we are a government principled on the Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, Constitution, and Bill of Rights, and yet no one seems to know how to apply this to corrupt local government. Our papers are good, and yet we promote the OCCULT, because for some reason we’re easily duped by a grifter. You don’t know what this is, because you were never educated to perceive such a person which would prevent them from gaining access to government. How do you tell when someone’s atramental v. someone who has character and can reason. THIS is your solution. You folks don’t want to think, and when you get the cheap and easy you end up chasing your tails neurotic over some sociopath whose doing what exactly to your local population? ABDUCTION; murder and all the wonderful things they do later are core BDSM. you have to be willing to think. You’re not. Look over this blog. It’s running wild with clever opinions and creative ideas for what? It’s meaningless. Your community is falling apart, because you people are scattered about taking up petty issues and arguments when you aught to be organizing, but that would talk work, and you’re just not motivated to the task. You have to understand the model their using, and you don’t. It not the academic model they teach in school. It’s the one they avoid talking about, because it’s not normal, and if DID learn it the powers that be would shortly collapse the education system that taught it. I can tell you in a handshake what you’re up against, but you’ll dismiss it out of mind, because you’re comfy being neurotic, which is your OTHER problem.
“It’s meaningless”………. Hmmmmm
Although your comment is well taken it furthers only a criticism and not any solutions.
Solution #1……. Do this!
Solution #2……. Do that!
Solution #3……. Etc. Etc. Etc.
You can’t Romanticize the constitution on the local level or grass-roots.
The local level is the most dirty and corrupt level where every fungus grows.
However, it is there where eventually a true leader is born.
We must keep looking around who that individual may be.
“The gem cannot be polished without friction, nor man perfected without trials.”…….. Chine’s cliché
I’m sorry. I missed something here. Where did I make THAT list of solutions?
Yeah, local politics, I know, which is a microcosm of it’s parent organizations, state and federal governments.
Here’s the deal, genius. Wha’cha doesn’t know is local is out of control, because it was designed to be, okay.
Also, you’re showing neo colors referring to the constitution as a romantic literature. Neos are notoriously opposed to the constitution what propaganda you seem to have mastered somewhat.
Fullerton doesn’t do the constitution, because too much work. Party culture. You know this. and where there a party there’s a lot of fucking going on. I don’t mean that disparagingly. I mean it truthfully.
Little truism put off the immediate work making it possible roll one day into another the public largely mystified on the rhetoric with very little aptitude OR interest in vetting anything short of the taste of a Big Mac in the afternoon in the way home form work.
True leader…HAHAHA. they kill true leaders on the assassination algorithm, FYI.
You are spaced out, my friend. Learn the handshake and quicken your mind, because without this knowledge your next three lifetimes are going to be loaded with fun figuring it out on your own.
“Learn the handshake and quicken your mind, because without this knowledge your next three lifetimes are going to be loaded with fun figuring it out on your own.”…………. Hmmmmm
You have started promising comment only to slip into some sort of unknown delusion about me.
I have lived 22 years in communist system and am accomplished in the political science degree.
In contrast to your opinion, I am probably the only true constitutionalists in this blog because I do live by it and probably the only one here understanding a concept of been coronated and endowed by same rights and powers as is King of England.
I am free spirit, an individualist, and do not belong to any group, but not loner, and will tell it the way it is which in the brainwashed society will earn me a title of racist, hater, anti-Semite blah, blah, blah.
So my point was — live by constitution, start posting under your real name and stop complaining.
Not buying it. You are too argumentative on the basics. Too in love with your words and yourself, narcissist. You want morality when you want to attack someone. Fool. You’re confidence is a two letter acronym: BA/BS, the former the sound a sheep makes, the latter a snake. If anything you’re a grifter, and you probably have a following of admirers. Americans ARE overeating, fuck crazy partying fools making them tame for their “handlers”.
I suppose, BRICON, that the solution to many problems with the FPD could be for the FPDs GOOD Cops to turn in the FPDs BAD Cops…ah but that will not happen as the Good Cops are afraid of the bad cops..after all they all have guns.
So where are your solutions? At least the blog is here trying to point out some things that might never be discussed to inform the people who care.
You’ve got it backwards.
Bad cops are afraid of good cops. Good cops do not fear bad cops.
Of course in Serpico’s case they were trying to kill him, whether actively or inactively. Actively, it was suspected that his “brothers” got him there to assassinate him, suspected but never proven, Inactively, they didn’t back him up and after he was shot in the head, failed to call for EMTs, someone in the neighborhood had to call 911. Still with all that and almost constant threats on his life, he tore apart one of the most corrupt police departments that ever existed. He had, and probably still has good reason to fear the bad cops.
So where are all the good cops in Fullerton. You know, the ones who called out Rincon, and Mater, and Mejia and Major, And Hampton, etc. etc.?
Oh yeah. Quiet as mice.
Yes for a moment, forget about Kelly. Lets look at the 10 cops dismissed in the past year for stealing, sexual assault, lying under oath at Nam trial, stealing from the property room, stealing laptop at Miami airport, they seemed to all go quietly and quickly. ALso the number of Brady cops who lie under oath at criminal trials and can no longer testify in OC courtrooms.
Name one good cop who called out these bad cops! Not a one!
In other OC communities, that type of behavior would cause 1. city manager to be terminated, 2. police chief terminated, 3. a city council not asleep but up in arms! Fullerton has a culture of corruption. It may be diminishing as these folks are terminated, but it is still there despite the $150,000 plus they gave Gennaco to BS for the police.
Fullerton needs a Chief like Charlie Beck who shows he is the BOSS!
10 cops were dismissed this year? Name em please. I suppose you say that retired means dismissed too right? Name the 10 that were dismissed. thanks.
They were offered retirement or to leave first. They chose to retire under pressure or just plain left.
Can you name them?
Okay, first of all, the solution is understanding what you are dealing with. You don’t know this. I do. If you educate to this issue you will increase public interest in local government. You have to learn to recognize a grifter. This individual is a proxy for occult government. When they pop up you have to put a team of attorneys on them and chase them off. there’s more but that’s paramount to preserving leadership principled on reason. Very simple.
I’m sure it is no surprise to readers of this blog that I would comment on the quality and quantity of Rusty Kennedy’s statistics.
I preface my comments with a quote from the American author, Mark Twain. He said there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines hate crimes as
“A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias.”
In 2009, Congress expanded the definition of hate crimes to include transgender, lesbian and gay persons.
Congress defines hate crimes as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.”
Upon closer inspection of Kennedy’s statistics, the occurances of hate crimes have been skewed higher by lumping in hate incidents.
The definition of hate incident is “Behavior which constitutes an expression of hostility against the person or property of another because of his/her difference.” Such incidents include actions motivated by bias, but do not meet the necessary elements required to prove a crime.”
Rusty Kennedy’s graph showing “64 Hate Crimes”does not reflect the findings of Orange County District Attorney’s office on this topic.
Out of Kennedy’s 64 “hate crimes” the district attorney only found 27 came close to meeting definition of hate crime. From this number, the OC DA rejected 14 of them. All total, only eleven incidents in Orange County met the definition of hate crime.
Eleven incidents of actual hate crimes out of population of 3,055,745 does not constitute a tip of the iceberg prediction of rampant hate crimes if Rusty Kennedy’s Orange County Human Relations Commission is not annually funded $300,000 of our tax dollars given out by the Orange County Board of Supervisors.
A more accurate metaphor is these statistics shows Orange County’s incidents of intolerance is a mere drop in the bucket.
A more accurate analysis of Rusty Kennedy’s stats reveals the Orange County Human Relations Commission does not have a reason to exist.
As for the increased incidents of vandalism, I bet Rusty Kennedy factored in the pathetic, schizophrenic, fifty-five year old woman who in the midst of her psychotic break spray painted epithets on public buildings.
I wonder if Rusty Kennedy’s commission factored in the blatant hate crime where a disabled man was beaten to death because he was disabled by Fullerton police officers.
Oh, I forgot. The Fullerton police did not kill Kelly Thomas because he was disabled and homeless. According to Rusty Kennedy’s letter to his sister’s very local newspaper “The Fullerton Observer”, it was the community of fullerton’s indifference to homelessness that killed Kelly Thomas.
Outstanding analysis again Van.
Thank you Van. Keep pounding and folks will get it. I just heard him on KNX 1070. In my opinion he is one expensive empty suit. You know the Fullerton Absurder is great for my hamster cage because they love the YELLOW paper it is printed on. What a family legacy. The truth will stand on its own no matter who gets in the way and it is never too late to do the right thing.
thanks to you and people like you who refuse to believe propaganda
above post is my opinion
“above post is my opinion”………. Hmmmmm
Don’t be shy.
It is stupendous factual statement!
Opinions are like assholes…..
that’s just your opinion, anonymous
I’m surprised you haven’t taken into account the majority of haters on this blog who commit this crime by the minute. I use to think this blog offered the citizens of fullerton information and education regarding problems hidden in the city. All this blog does is create HATE!
Why does everyone hate crime me so much? Can’t we all just get along?
“All this blog does is create HATE!”……… Hmmmm
Hate in itself is not a crime you moron mongoloid!
Without hate you wouldn’t be able to self defense!
HATE IS GOOD!
Same like fire, it depends how it is used!
Excellent pseudonym, under the circumstances.
Speaking of hate. First of all few people hate, they dislike, but rarely hate, that’s a word used to create fear usually.
Secondly, I keep reading about people hating cops, it seems that all cops percieve disagreement or disent as being hated. But the reality is that cops hate us, the average person. I just read an article that says that the police aren’t a gang as many have said, instead they’re a cult, and have the characteristics of a cult. Which explains the us v them outlook, and omerta or the thin blue line, why even those that are good cops protect those that are clearly bad. They hate us because we are the outsiders, not part of their cult.
Post a link to that one if you have it. I’d like to read it.
This blog creates change and unlocks minds.
“unlocks minds”……….. Hmmmmm
Sometimes by use of the hammer when the key is lost.
Yes, because making fun of public figures is “hate”, whereas beating people to death, injuring them, raping them etc. is “an accident.” When committed by police of course.
took you a long time to come to this obvious conclusion??
what damage does the truth cause others if they are innocent. Only the guilty who are called out on their cirmes on this blog accuse FFFF of being the progenitor of hate crimes
I think the statistics show that Rusty Kennedy likes to pig out on the trough of government welfare. Not receiving a welfare check, but the other way, promoting expansion of the bureaucracy by fudging statistics and saying there is a 14% increase in hate crimes. Yet his info was not signed off by any statistics professor at any of our fine universities, no he just made them up himself and presented it to the OC Board of Supervisors hoping for a continuation of his do nothing group.
Guess what! He succeeded! I take issue with those above who think this FFFF blog is just spewing out hate. Fact is, some information is regularly provided that delves into the mess made by our elected officials and bureaucracies and frankly, its a travesty. In a county as rich as Orange, we can be doing a lot more with the huge amounts of money flowing into the county and city coffers other than the enormous support of the pigs at the trough of government largesse!
$300k per year would support almost two cops on most of the County’s PDs. Maybe.
Dont forget that Commission, does the opposite of what it suppose to do, very common in politics.
Reading the comments on OCR on any police-brutality related story is like entering a time-machine to 1938 Germany.
No shit. Then you read that propaganda crap David Whiting exudes about the Heroes.
Check out Back the Badge above. I’ve rewritten his paragraph for him:
No Kelly’s death was not a hate crime, as we loved every minute of it. Disobeying any order from us may result in death, and that is how it should be.
Our outstanding PD loves its citizens so much we will gladly beat you to a bloody pulp for looking at us the wrong way. We will take your property and will patrol your neighborhoods looking for criminal opportunities to steal, rob, rape, pillage, and assault you as you sleep in your beds, unaware of the danger we pose to you and to democracy.
Back the Badge!
Typical cop hater trying to stir up more hate. If you think this is a cop I have a council seat you can buy.
No, that sure sounds right! Lol!
Rusty is a member of the County cop bootlicker brigade. If it has a badge and a gun it can do no wrong in Rusty’s eyes. Rusty NEVER has a bad word to say about the cops, even though there have been many OC cops scandals. Did you ever hear Rusty complain about the cop’s involvement in the John Chamberlain jail murder – that the cops did their best to cover up??? Hell no. Silent as a deaf/mute. Rusty only promotes what builds his own little empire. Rusty has never seen a hate crime that he doesn’t love. It gives his life purpose. It justifies Rusty’s ridiculously high salary. Rusty is nothing more than a hate crime pimp IMO. Rusty should wear some shark skinned pants and a big white hat with a pointed bill and 3″ heels!!! That would depict his role in County government!!! 😀
A real hate crime is when the government steals someone’s home because they can’t afford the property tax!
Now IMO that is a hate crime!!!
Typical politician. They can all be bought. Fullerton learned that quickly. Is it November yet?
I think a hate crime has been committed when a government intentionally and knowingly add 10% to your water bill, then steal it. Then refuse to even apologize for it.
Jan Flory hates the people of Fullerton. Sort of in a Nixonian way.
Again, “Fred” — hate crime has a real definition. Your making sport of it this way is like calling the water bill surcharge a “date rape.” It’s not funny, it’s not adult, it’s not normal. Stop it.
Oh does it? Then why does the DOJ say that the debate over what a hate crime is continues?
“Legislators, law enforcement officials, prosecutors—and the American public—continue to grapple with fundamental questions in the hate-crime debate:
How do we define—and identify—hate crime?”
“One of the most significant issues in the debate is the lack of national consensus that hate crime should be considered a separate class of crime. In addition, even supporters of hate-crime legislation disagree about how the statutes should be written. Other major questions in the debate include:
Should hate or bias motivation be considered when the underlying offense, such as assault or vandalism, is already covered by criminal law?
Do hate-crime laws punish thoughts rather than actions?
What are the ramifications of basing additional penalties upon the thoughts that motivate offenders rather than on the behavior itself?
Is it possible to determine with legally acceptable certainty the motive behind a person’s criminal acts?
Do hate-crime laws result in more severe punishments for crimes against certain groups of people than for equivalent crimes committed against other groups?
Are hate-crime victims more traumatized than other victims of the same underlying offense because they feel personally targeted?
Does hate crime increase fear in the community beyond what might exist for similar crimes that are not motivated by hate?”
You make a lot of assumptions in pretty much every debate you enter into. They are pretty much all faulty assumptions which are easily disproved.
Point well taken, ‘nista. As with many, many concepts used in the social and natural sciences, there may be some variation in a specific definition (or arguments that there are variants in the general phenomenon defined) — but that usually does not obviate the usefulness of the concept or the term describing it, largely because of it excludes.
So tell me: of all of those definitions, would any of them include “a hate crime has been committed when a government intentionally and knowingly add 10% to your water bill, then steal it”? If not, and the answer is indeed “no,” then my criticism of “Fred” stands.
“Again, “Fred” — hate crime has a real definition. Your making sport of it this way is like calling the water bill surcharge a “date rape”.
Didn’t you want to say: is like calling Stanly anti-Semite?….. Instead?
Hate crimes are just a way for race baiters and hustlers like Kennedy to feel good about themselves. Only half-wits like you, Bill Campbell and pat bates fall for the scam.
CONDEMNATION ALERT! Please distance yourself from the comment just above at your earliest opportunity — if so disposed.
Please distance yourself from the comment just above at your earliest opportunity — if so disposed……….. Hmmmmmm
Never do that!….. Never take legal advise rendered to you by the most incompetent attorney in this blog!
There is no such thing like HATE CRIME!
There is only a crime! [Emphases added]
The hate crime is an oppressive invention of the ultra left humanity haters and, allegedly, the God chosen people like Golem, which forces you to a submission and forfeiture of your unalienable rights.
Are you saying that Kennedy doesn’t profit from whipping up hate crime hysteria? Just look at the latest report: 8 additional “crimes” (per their own definition – the Commission hates real analysis) in a county of over 3,000,000. And yet this translates into a 14% INCREASE!!! headline.
Who falls for that? People just like you.
He might be doing so — or it could be legitimate. Given that you (collectively) seem to devalue the whole idea of hate crime itself, you’re really not the ones I’d trust to make that determination.
Generally, I’m slow to come to definitive conclusions about accusing people of self-dealing and such. (You guys took a long time to earn it.) I’m not buying it wholesale; I’m just not prepared to jump to a conclusion given the possibility that it could be entirely legitimate.
We must repeal the Hate Crime Law!
Well, no one can say that you don’t have skin in that game….
“skin in that game”………. Hmmmmm
Are you referring to my Gentile’s foreskin?
I’m referring to all of you. Draw your own conclusion.
“I’m referring to all of you. Draw your own conclusion”……… Hmmmmmm
Promises, Promises, Promises!
margo anulese ‘s pimp
“GROW UP FOOL”
Pat Bates was instrumental in cutting OCHRC’s budget this year by 50,000. I was there at both meetings.
That smiley face actually resembles you, sans the bloated body, of course.
Ooh, did someone around here Larrt?
“Now that sounds pretty awful, until you realize that the crime wave led to a total of 64 incidents in 2011. 64. And that means that the year before, 2010, the total was 56; the increase equals 8.”
What do you expect from Rusty Kennedy? Drives me crazy when people use % figures to bolster their position. Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.
Rusty Kennedy is an apologist for the status quo! He will never say anything that will result in a decrease in his pay – remember his pay is based on how much he can get overall support for the Human Rights Commission. If they cut the Commission budget by 10% ($30,000/year), Rusty has to cut down on travel expenses, meetings, and last but not least, his own substantial pay and benefits! He is a double dipper just like Don Blankhead and Pat McPension! That commission can be run by volunteers for free. No free lunches or dinners!
Just like every politician in this world right? They won’t say or do anything that will cause them to lose votes or lost support for a cause. Middle ground.
I definitely believe there are hate crimes. He really earns that much per year to sit on the commission? What are his qualifications?
a bachelor’s degree from Johnston College, an experiential learning place that no longer exists as a college.
Are we still voting for Seaborn?
let’s win him over…. I can understand his position many times. In U.S. congress a compromise has to be reached many times to make any kind of progress. this is what he did during the most recent city meeting by making a motion to put a person on the water board against the will of the other council members by the means of making a temporary position while a process could be set in motion for having a proper application procedure.
Has anybody looked into that $600,000 a year they get for the conflict resolution program they run?
Strange as it may seem, you have to use clinical leadership to clean this up. This is the only way you are going to rout atramental bosses. Let’m sell pencils.
could make one sick to the stomach
All this jabbering about hate crime!
Is date rape a love crime?
Depends on if they used Roopies.
Oh, and Christopher Wren!
What’s your point with Wren?
For Albert Rincon it is!
“Is date rape a love crime?”
No, it’s rape.
Why does porky pig use a derogitory name for himself in reference to police. He has obvious knowledge of police procedure yet comicaly plays the advocate. Why would someone waste so much time antaganizing when they could be persuading thier point and advancing thier cause. It seems to be just more of the bully mentality that seems to pervade the police department these days.
Probably “SADISTIC NARSICISISM” “STRANGE BULLY”
Narcissists are predators.
“And of course these pathological liars will never admit that. They are perfect, you know. If caught being less than perfect, they put on a poor-little-harmless-me face and try to make people think that they lash out at others in self defense.
The biggest lie narcissists tell is that they hurt people more or less accidentally, without meaning to or because they are in pain and/or feel threatened or put down or insulted, because they have these tender, tender feelings that are just so sensitive you see.”
Probably “SADISTIC NARSICISISM” “STRANGE BULLY”
Narcissists are predators.
“And of course these pathological liars will never admit that. They are perfect, you know. If caught being less than perfect, they put on a poor-little-harmless-me face and try to make people think that they lash out at others in self defense.
Sorry I might need a computer restart.
I wonder if police recruit tests can single out a narcissistic behavior before they even have an option to join the academy. I believe its a mistake to recruit just anyone who wishes a job with law enforcement. I remember seeing billboard on the freeway recruiting LAPD officers as if there were a great shortage. I would think the good pay would draw out many recruits to choose from. I have heard that sometimes there are practicaly a hundred recruits lined up for one position on the fire department.
Birds of a feather flock together.
In the last couple days, LAPD has brutalized a couple of women, in July kicking one in the crotch, killing her. It seems every day someone is killed or brutalized or killed. Every time I wish it was possible to have a civilized conversation with a cop, because I’d like to know just one thing WHY?
“Every time I wish it was possible to have a civilized conversation with a cop”………. Hmmmmm
You should wish that the left liberals did not disarmed us and did not elected Communist Brown for Governor who will never act like Indiana Governor who Signed Bill Allowing Citizens To Use Deadly Force Against Police Officers Into Law.
As long as COPs will have guns and we not, they will use them against us!
Our forefathers knew that and that is why they included second amendment into the constitution.
We are stupid and have allowed the leftists to quash it.
Vote no for Democrats, Obama and idiot Diamond for senate.
The left liberals? OMG!
The Indiana link is good. People also need to learn the constitution, be willing to assert the Bill of rights and STAND GROUND, which if Fullerton had this kind of attitude you would not be dealing with a corrupt administration.
Corrupt government officials are grifters. They were the Tories of colonial America, and they were dealt with as such.
You’re getting it. You’re slow, but it’s sinking in!
Citizens have the right to use deadly force against cops today in California if the citizen has a lawful reason to believe that his life is in danger or he risks grave bodily injury from illegal police action. Had Kelly Thomas been in possession of a gun on the day he was beaten to death – he could have blown away those cops and he would have been within the law. Even the DA – Tony Rackaukas – said something to that effect when he presented the Kelly Thomas murder findings to the public.
So we don’t need an Indiana law. We already have it!
Stop selling yourself short.
So you really think that you must allow a cop to beat you to death and that, by law, you cannot resist? Come now, Stanley. You can’t be that naive.
@JU Do you have a link to any legislative determination that corroborates this? I know this is legislation in several other states, but California very sick in this regard. It’s Stand Your Ground legislation, and Indiana has recently passed legislation which permits a citizen to fight off any police officer who illegally enters that individual’s home.
“@JU Do you have a link to any legislative determination that corroborates this? I know this is legislation in several other states, but California very sick in this regard”
The standard ‘self-defense’ law also apply to dirty cops who endanger someone’s life while using illegal tactics. Why wouldn’t it? That’s what Rackaukas was talking about during his public presentation about Kelly Thomas. People have a right to fight back against cops who illegally endanger their lives or threaten grave bodily injury.
Do you think you must tolerate an illegal brutal beating by cops??? Are you people nuts??? Of course you have the right to fight back to save your life or to prevent grave bodily injury.
Illegal entry into your home is another matter. The law is sketchy on that. If you are a victim of unlawful physical attack inside your home by cops as a result of an unlawful entry you have a right to fight back. But taking lethal action against cops for executing a bad search warrant or an unlawful warrantless search is not advised. Go after them in civil and/or criminal court. If my life was not threatened by an unlawful physical attack I would not resist. But I would own them later on. That’s my opinion.
Yes you tell em JustUs. You know all. You don’t even have to know anything about things and you know all. You should run for President. Yes do it. 🙂
Agree. Common sense says people should have stopped the Thomas beating. Conscionable people would not have allowed this to happen.
I’d like to tighten this up to something legislative which sets a legal precedence for standing your ground in California. Unfortunately, this state views self defence in proportion to the assault only, which means you have to gauge circumstances fairly rapidly, may too rapidly to actually make this a viable solution to an assault.
For example, there is always the change your perp may come back at you after you have separated yourself from him. If you’re too exhausted to fight him off again you get hurt, and California isn’t going to follow though on tough prosecution,. Perverted administration.
Self defence in California is beyond the average person’s ability to respond to an assault. In Thomas’ case, had people intervened to stop these predatory cops I am sure a melee would have ensued with too many casualties to have made this a reasonable risk.
In the end, people are forced to witness either their own execution or that of a peer with absolutely no way to strop this out of fear of reprisal form the perp, and in this case, they had already swarmed.
So, common sense doesn’t work. while most people would probably agree with Rackaukas not many would risk following his advice for the reason stated.
Here’s a link to another site re CA Self Defence. I guess you’re taking the long way around saying there really isn’t a law in California prescriptive of Stand Your Ground with the exception of self-defence as legal defence, which unfortunately, is a convoluted application of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, in my opinion.
@JU Here’s what I was looking for. It took a while to find it, but it does set a precedence for standing your ground. The next step is linking to good Samaritan protection of a victim in such circumstances, which would describe how to interact with grifter police.
CALJIC No. 5.50, Self-Defense—Assailed Person Need Not Retreat: A person threatened with an attack that justifies the exercise of the right of self-defense need not retreat. In the exercise of [his] . . . right of self-defense a person may stand [his] . . . ground and defend [himself] . . . by the use of all force and means which would appear to be necessary to a reasonable person in a similar situation and with similar knowledge; and a person may pursue [his] . . . assailant until [he] . . . has secured [himself] . . . from danger if that course likewise appears reasonably necessary. This law applies even though the assailed person might more easily have gained safety by flight or by withdrawing from the scene.
“Self defence in California is beyond the average person’s ability to respond to an assault.”………. Hmmmmm
1) California law is meaningless and unenforceable unless you would have same rights as does a COP. Meaning that only reason for you to kill a COP should be the simple believe that he wants to kill you, whether lawfully or unlawfully.
2) Judging based on this blog comments you couldn’t put together a Jury which would uphold this law.
3) You can’t carry a loaded gun. So when the COPs pull their guns you will say “hold it! I need to load my gun”
4) There are tuns of laws which favors COPs and which supersede the self defense statute — thanks to unions.
I would be happy if we would seriously punish cops for using deadly force or if suspect dies in their custody after the fact.
Once again people will not convict COP!
People are brainwashed and too stupid!
Just listen to medias reports when you see some brutality on TV…….. “suspect had a gun!”
Later on you find out it was in his home and suspect was brutalized miles away from the home and his gun.
I would even settle for making unions and collective bargaining in public sector unlawful.
As long as we have stupid people as is a majority at this forum — nothing will change.
Liberals never get smarter because liberalism is mental disorder.
T-Rack is going to eat shit for what he said. He is some stupid man. You have the right to fight back when taken into custody? Wow..that was unreal.
64 hate crimes in a county of over 3,000,000. I wonder how many violent crimes there were total in the county.
Now, we are told that a hate crime is a crime against a victim selected to represent a group intended to intimidate the whole group. This indicates organization. In these 64 cases, are we seeing organized groups targeting individuals in a concious effort to achieve a larger goal? Or are we seeing random thugs who use animosity against a person of a different race, ethnicity or sexual persuation as an excuse for their thuggery.
In the early 1960’s, there were 40 bombings in the City of Birmingham, Alabama (a city smaller than the current Anaheim) clearly directed at intimidating the black population to remain in its “place”. One bombing killed four young girls at the downtown Baptist Church preparing to perform in the upcoming Sunday service.
The only eye witness to any of the bombings told of a Birmingham police car delivering a bomb to the doorstep of A.D.King, brother of Dr. Martin Luther King, and then circling around to come upon the crime (source: Jeff Prugh, Los Angeles Times). Meanwhile, the FBI seemed unable or unwilling to do anything to stop the violence.
This is what hate crime ledgislation was created to stop and prevent from reoccurring. I don’t condone any individual assaulting any other individual. I particularly don’t condone any individual assaulting another because he does not like that individuals certain caractoristics.
I wonder, however, how many of these 64 Orange County hate crimes contain anything similar to the domestic terorrism intent contained in the Birmingham bombings.
Good comparison of the historical and present-day definition of hate crime. 6907 violent crimes committed in OC in 2010. That means hate crimes if the 64 number is accurate are 0.09% of all violent crimes. Of course one hate crime is too many but 1 in a thousand doesn’t seem like this is a problem we should be prioritizing over for instance POLICE BRUTALITY.
the 64 hate crimes submitted to the OC district attorney’s office by rusty kennedy’s OC human relations commission, only 11 met criteria for hate crime.
The misrepresentation of hate crimes to the public and to the OC district attorney’s office tells me rusty Kennedy lies to the public to inflame fear and anger within the community to further convince the OC board of supervisiors they must continue funding his salary via funding his commission.
Immoral, unethical, yes.
just my opinion
PG do not require any sort of rational or quantitative analysis by Kennedy & Co. For them it’s all about feelings, and they are feeling good about spending your money to massage their liberal guilt.
This site’s never going to change. Constellations of ideas. Petty arguments that never come to a focal point. Every man’s a warrior unto himself with no clue how to address the corruption issue in Fullerton, because the problem’s with the BRAINLESS PEOPLE who live there! This is an example of what happens when people raised in a sovereign culture acculturate to the IDEAL less an understanding of it’s roots, they stagnate. Lovely pond you have there.
addendum: out of Rusty Kennedy’s 64 graphed incidents labled hate crimes, only 27 came close to meeting criteria for hate crime, after OC district attorney scrutinized the 27 submitted to them by rusty, only 11 met criteria for hate crime.
unlike rusty Kenndy, I dislike lying to the public.
11 hate crimes in a 3.4 million county?
Time to disband Kennedy’s scam.
Why is Fullerton NOT confronting this issue with him with an attorney? Because people love graft! Some sociopath presents on the scene, and everyone starts chasing their tails. This is too funny. Your intel is good, but your handling of it comical.
Fred, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you! Ha, just added three hate crimes to the Rusty’s list, lol…
Well, you gave Crusty a nice boost to 2012!!
Since Crusty gets $100,000 ayear (on top of his $120,000 pension) we are paying him $1563 per hate crime.
Of course sooner or later somebody is going to be smart enough to ask why hate crimes are not going down!
Where you at, JustUs? Here’s another scenario to hammer out the chinks so we can put this to a legislative motion least they whack us both for being a steering committee of two to reform California Stand Your Ground legislation to include empowering groups of individuals to put down a tyranny. Here’s such a hypothesis.
Does stand your ground apply where you perceive some horrific event such as a false flag incident about to occur where thousands of people may be killed if you don’t act to prevent this from happening? We know this is going on. What if someone sees it BEFORE it goes down and police are involved? Militia?
JustUs lost the last ounce of respect he had left yesterday. He’s at his local bar far away from Fullerton trying to find some poor soul that will listen to him.
Does your handle have a badge # attached to it. I’d like to meet you in person with a letter of recommendation for your boss. SUBJECT: Grifting.
I would like to commend you department for doing what’s right for repatriation and sets an example for others to follow, an example that says, “I DO MY JOB, EVEN IF IT MEANS I DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION.”
Let’s do this.
Anytime baby. Anytime. Cops are proud people. You know that. 🙂
The truest characters of ignorance are vanity and pride and arrogance.
True. Most people in this world are proud of their pride, confidence, and happiness. Life is good. God bless the USA.
@pdya pdya pdya Porky Pig Most police officers are respectable individuals with a strong sense of purpose. Cops and a step down. Then there are perverts, posers, provocateurs. The latter, is THAT your “any time”? Or are you just so fucking lack of a moral compass that anything that’s got an ass is your game? IF you have a badge #, present. You’ve been called out. If you don’t…
You’re a teacher.
Of course what they don’t and won’t include are crimes against whites by minorities. While the media had a feeding frenzy during the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman ( you know as the NY Times called him; the white Latino, after it was announced he was half white, half Latino and MSNBC doctored the 911 call) there were black on white crimes that received only local attention (see below).
The problem as I see it, a crime is a crime and the victims race, nationality, or whatever should not determine what sentence is handed down. However, I will add that there is one group we should make a case for and that group are all peoples if the perps are the Police.
Well, during that time the Mainstream Media was falling over themselves to see who could out do one another.
Excerpt from the American Free Press;
While this dog-and-pony show is going on, however, the mainstream media has been totally silent on atrocious crimes that have been committed by blacks on whites since the Martin shooting. Here are a few—from among dozens of incidents—that AFP has confirmed.
On Feb. 27, the day after the Martin shooting, two black males in Detroit abducted and killed a white couple. The victims were found bound, shot and burned beyond recognition in an alley. Police are calling it a random “thrill killing.”
On Feb. 28, in Kansas City, Mo., two black teens attacked a 13-year-old white boy on his front porch as he was returning from school. They poured gasoline on him and set him on fire for no apparent reason, saying “You get what you deserve white boy!”
On March 14, a 20-year-old black man broke into the home of Bob and Nancy Straight in Tulsa, Okla. He raped the 85-year-old Mrs. Straight and then beat her to death. Then he shot 90-year-old Mr. Straight in the face with a pellet gun and broke his jaw and ribs. He died several days later. The thug stole $200, a TV set and their Dodge Neon, which he drove to a nearby house where he went to hide. The police spotted the stolen car in front of the house and arrested him.
On April 1, in Jackson, Miss., a 31-year-old black man broke into a house to rob it and found a white woman inside. He forced her to lie on the floor with a blanket over her head as he shot her in the back of the head, execution-style.
On April 5, in Tunica, Miss., a 34-year-old black man checked into a hotel with his pregnant 25-year-old white girlfriend and their one-year-old child. The next day the woman was found dead on the floor brutally mutilated and covered with blood, as was the one-year-old child. The knife was in the room.
On April 15, in Las Vegas, a 22-year-old black man raped a 38-year-old white woman and her 10-year-old daughter. He then killed them by smashing their skulls with a hammer.
On top of all these brutal murders there have been a number of “flash mob” attacks across the country where anywhere from half a dozen to as many as a hundred blacks gang up on innocent people and beat them senseless. In at least 12 of these cases documented by this writer, the blacks have cited revenge for the shooting of Martin as the motive for the savageries, although in many cases the victims were also robbed.
–and his closing remarks on the KNX 1070 snippet were consistent with what you parlay here. This is one expensive empty suit and dog and pony show.
I wander how long it takes before the left liberals will call you racist, hater and anti-Semite.
Golem, hurry up!
As long as it takes for his alter ego/pseudonym “Stanley Fiala” to call you liberal, leftist, politically correct, etc.
Humanity 4 billion years later, still pond scum.
Typical citizen hater.
I love citizens. They pay my wages, my benefits, and my pension. I love helping them each day of my life.
wait til he gets a load of you and yer momma you tote around like some sort of sheild….what a dick.
Hmmmm a gym teacher and a Gin AKO. You have many different loves.
I am the mother of your last victim….dont think I havent been watchin you… guess which one? there are so many…I bet when your alone, you hear me right beside that town home of yours…its only time. I know everything about you, even your allergies.
LOL Who are you talking to? Pig or Alby Al? Or John Doe? I know you are a cougar that gets around but we just want to know which one of us you are stalking today. 🙂
Don’t be so stupid Porky. Never FUCK with the MaMa bear. She will protect her cubs. Just like your MUM……And if she’s stalking, she means business. No matter what you think of her. Respect the MAMA. So go ahead and LOL, but watch your back. You want us to respect you? Then you show respect…..
LOL love it Cg. Looks like games on. I like the big ball games. Strike one!
Alby Al is around here all the time. Just talk directly to him. He enjoys the attention too.
Breaking the family chain is hard.