Seeing Jan Flory in action I have come to recognize a bitter, humorless shrew who happens to be a cheerleader for the department heads in City Hall and the worse their actions, the less accountability she requires.
Is she also losing her marbles? I don’t know. But I do know she wrote this weird entry on Facebook in which, among other things, admits that she employed “undocumented” domestics:
You’re going to love this one.
Last night I picked up a cryptic email message from O.Co. Register reporter, Tony Saavedra, asking me to call him today. We talked about 10:30 this morning. Apparently Tony had received a copy of a letter from an anonymous “concerned court employee” that had been sent to Shawn Nelson, our esteemed county supervisor. Tony said that Shawn had turned the letter over the District Attorney for investigation. WHAT! Tony wanted to know if I had been contacted by the D.A. WHAT!
My next 2 questions were: 1. Am I going to be arrested for something? That would be a bummer for the campaign, and 2. What was the letter about?
As described to me by Tony, the anonymous letter described an encounter that the writer had with me mid-August when I appeared in North Court with a 19-year-old friend of mine, Jackie, to deal with a traffic citation Jackie received the month before. Jackie was cited for an illegal left hand turn and driving without a license. The letter accused me of asking the court for some kind of special favor for Jackie. (I’m still trying to get a copy of the letter.)
Let’s back up. Jackie is one of the “Dream” kids. She was brought to this country by her undocumented parents when she was 8 and has lived here since then. Because Jackie has no documents herself, she (like hundreds of thousands) cannot get a driver’s license. I’ve known Jackie for 10 years, and she is a good girl who has done everything asked of her. She earned a 3.9 GPA in high school and has just finished her first year at Fullerton College with a 3.7 GPA. She volunteered as a poll worker for the June election. She has applied to work as a cadet for the City of Anaheim, but cannot get a job because she has no papers.
Once upon a time, Jackie’s parents worked in my home cleaning my house, and I developed a friendship with Jackie. Although her parents haven’t worked for me for a while, Jackie and I keep in touch. She was terrified of going to court by herself because she didn’t know if she might be arrested by ICE officials and deported. I offered to go to court with her to help out if I could.
When Jackie’s matter was called, I stood up with Jackie and notified the court that I was an attorney appearing to vouch for Jackie’s character and ask the court to cut Jackie a break if it had any discretion at all in the matter. The judge heard me out, and asked if Jackie was driving without a license. Jackie admitted that she was, and pled guilty to both counts. Jackie and I went downstairs where she had to pay nearly $600 for the fine.
This is what gets me. Based on the facts set forth above,
1. Why would Nelson (an attorney himself) turn such a letter over to the D.A. for investigation?
2. How did Tony Saavedra get the letter conveniently “leaked” to him?
3. Does this have anything to do with my being the frontrunner in the city council election? YA THINK! And more important,
4. Does this have anything to do with Shawn’s tight relationship with Tony Bushala who has been attacking me on his blog for the past 4 years.
Mr. Nelson, you owe me an explanation.
Apparently the progeny of these illegal aliens recently got a citation including driving without a license. What the girl’s GPA or employment status has to do with the ticket is anybody’s guess. It sounds like Flory did what the anonymous letter claims: asked the court for a favor.
Apparently Flory has got her corset in a twist; in her warped worldview she is the “frontrunner” and Shawn Nelson turned over an anonymous letter to the DA to derail her frontrunnership. I don’t know about any of that, but I do know that her obsessive paranoia about Tony Bushala doesn’t seem to fit the profile of a frontrunner – or even a completely balanced person.
I’m not a lawyer but I’m pretty sure Flory didn’t break any laws. However that letter should be turned over to the California Bar Association to let them decide if that was appropriate behavior.
#1 by News Flash on October 10, 2012
Self-proclaimed frontrunners rarely are.
#2 by simmons on October 10, 2012
If the facts are as Flory states, good for her. I am not for punishing illegals that come here to work and contribute to society and I would help them where I could also.
I simply do not like illegals (or legals) just coming here to commit crimes or suck money from the tax payers for doing nothing (like the FPD Officers) or one’s that receive affirmation action perks over legal citizens.
I would help the girl Flory describes where I could as well.
That said, Flory should not be re-elected nor should anyone who supported the current FPD or their pensions or redevelopment kickbacks and otherwise illegal deals promoted/allowed by department heads in City Hall and their actions.
#3 by Sir Vaysah on October 11, 2012
I guess you”ll be voting for Jan Flory, if indeed, you believe, “Flory should not be re-elected [mistake #1; she's not up for re-election] nor should anyone who supported the current FPD [she didn't, see mistake number one] or their pensions [again, she didn't. See mistake number one. In fact, when Flory was on the Counsel, she promoted pension reform for FPD and FFD, which caused her to get thrown off the counsel, as the FPD and FFD both campaigned against her.] or redevelopment kickbacks and otherwise illegal deals promoted/allowed by department heads in City Hall.” Again, I hate to sound like a broken record, but how is it this blog keeps trying to blame Flory for the acts of the Counsel over the past ten years, recognizing that she has not been on the counsel for 10 years?
#4 by Sir Vaysah on October 11, 2012
She IS the frontrunner.
That’s why you guys devote so much time and energy to her campaign.
Just sayin’.
#5 by Anonymous on October 10, 2012
Jan Flory: Take a chill pill. You have no place to be on the dais as a Fullerton Councilmember!
Geez…Fullerton wake up!
#6 by just a guy on October 10, 2012
If she does happen to win it will be fun hearing krazy Tony Bashala conspiracies injected into every discussion on every agenda item at future city council meetings.
Nutjob.
#7 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Has Tony ever used undocument immigrant labor — for both household and commercial uses? Has Chris Norby in his household?
Speaking of Norby: anyone who’se wanted to read my long-awaited story (or falsely claimed that they wanted to read it while hoping that I’d never produce it), here it is:
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2012/10/norby-and-his-protectors-why-i-filed-a-public-records-request-about-his-actions/
#8 by Not Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
I would be impressed if you held the same standard to David Benavide’s, the mayoral canidate of the county seat.
Allegations are allegations, yet if a multi-million dollare police contract is in play, you won’t write a piece.
TRUE COLORS SHOWN. You are a pawn.
#9 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
The only allegation I know going around about Benavides is that he had an affair. Having an affair is not illegal. The allegation about what Norby did was highly illegal. That’s why I wanted to (1) find out if the photos really existed, if they showed bruising, and if so where; and (2) find out the name of the witness so that I or someone else could interview him.
If you think that either motive for a public records request was improper, then it’s because your trying to protect Norby. Also, coming from FFFF, it’s stupendously hypocritical.
You’re right — I would rather not have noted those allegations publicly, but you guys and Moxley kept saying that I had no valid reason to put in a public records request, so finally I had to. Congratulations.
#10 by Fred Alcazar on October 10, 2012
But you found nothing. Zero. The sad story of your sad life.
#11 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
That’s why, in the absence of the demands that I show my cards, I would not have published this story. They stonewalled me and it worked. Of course, the more publicity this gets, the greater the likelihood that someone with relevant information might come forward, I suppose, so keep on busting my chops, “Fred.” (Or, of course, the Norbys could just make the request — and if there’s nothing there, provable by FFFF standards, I’ll be the first to admit. Requesting the file was still justified, though, IF one cares about domestic violence.
#12 by SHIMON MENDEL on October 11, 2012
makes you look back at mike duvall as not such a bad guy after all.
#13 by Not Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
What “You Guys”.
I am just a afterwork wine guy, who loves to pick you and your hypocrisy apart.
If there is a club questioning you. Let me know, I’ll pay admission.
I have ALWAYS said, I thought there was something ASKEW with you. why put this effort into a campaign, when your skills were better spent working one. Moxely explained it: YOU ARE Matt Cunningham.
#14 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
You know, I’ve never met or spoken to Matt Cunningham. My sense, though, is that the legitimate problem with him is not that he (like me) cares about politics and elections and (also like me) will pursue his cause aggressively. It’s that he chooses the wrong side, follows the wrong practices, and often exhibits the wrong ethics. But, again, I haven’t made a study of him so I don’t know how much of that is true. One thing I understand: he makes money off of this sort of thing; I do it for free.
#15 by Mr. Peabody on October 10, 2012
“I couldn’t determine that Norby had done anything wrong”
Thanks for that. The Western World can now exhale.
#16 by Diamond The Dumpster Diver on October 10, 2012
LOL. What kind of sad little homunculus could waste so many words, in the end admit he had nothing, and then wave his failure around like a victory banner.
Oh well. In six weeks nobody will ever hear from this creep again.
#17 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
If I had had proof that Chris Norby had forcibly kneed his wife, whom he had only recently found out was pregnant, I would have gone with it. I’d have done the same with any Democratic politician too — I have zero tolerance for that.
They blocked my public records request. OK, not much else I could do. Your position, though, that I should not have turned in a public records request — which by the way is a different form from a Dumpster Diving request — just shows that you really don’t care about these issues.
That’s one reason that I don’t have to use a pseudonym and you do.
#18 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Yeah, because the FPD didn’t respond with the photos of Martha Norby that allegedly exist and the name of the witness who saw the alleged violent action towards her — and the story is that it was suppressed by Chief Sellers.
Make the perp’s last name something other than Norby and a few others and you guys would be all over this. But it’s Norby, so you just don’t want to know.
Hopefully, if the Norbys want to clear things up, they’ll request and release the files.
#19 by Fred Alcazar on October 10, 2012
Lots of things “allegedly” exist. After you allege it. I had no idea Quirk was so desperate. Hopefully if Quirk wants to clear things up she’ll read you the riot act. I’m nor holding my breath.
Norby by 15 points.
#20 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Well, Goodrich did mention the photos and they were described to me. Of course, the Norbys can settle it by asking that the file be retrieved and opened.
I’m surprised — OK, I’m pretending to be surprised — that you don’t care about the allegation that the Police Chief spiked the investigation. I guess it’s not “Culture of Corruption” if the investigation being spiked is of one of your pals, eh?
#21 by nipsey on October 10, 2012
“anyone who’se wanted to read my long-awaited story”
Nobody wanted to and it hasn’t been awaited, long or otherwise, by anyone.
#22 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Well, gee, Mr. Moxley or Moxley-like entity, then why did you keep on pushing me to publish the story? You want some examples of your doing so, nips?
Now you know why I put in my request: people kept talking about what Norby had done, but everyone was afraid to try to find out more. I wasn’t. Go back and read your months of baiting me in light of that knowledge.
#23 by Mr. Peabody on October 10, 2012
We kept pushing you because we knew you had nothing. Which is what you had, and have.
Good night fat, naked, lonely zit behind a computer monitor. Good to know what sort of pimples support Quirk.
#24 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
I had serious enough reports to justify filing a request for public records regarding the disposition of that visit from the police. That’s all I needed to have. If you think that it’s “nothing,” that speaks volumes about you and your attitudes towards women.
Good luck trying to figure out the difference between the City Clerk’s office and a dumpster.
#25 by Diamond the Dumpster Diver on October 11, 2012
Admit it you got your fat ass handed to you. I bet Quirky-quirk is so proud of you now.
#26 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
Turned in a public records request and it was rejected. That’s not an ass-handing-to.
Discovering how hysterically FFFF and Moxley would defend Norby against all inquiries into this matter — that was, at a minimum, interesting and useful.
I don’t know what SQS thinks of this. Nor, I expect, do you.
#27 by nipsey on October 10, 2012
Yeah actually I’d love an example of me pushing you to publish a story on Norby. Let’s see it.
I would also like a pony.
#28 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
You know what — I was wrong about that. I had you mixed up with someone else; now I have to find out whom.
In checking around I did find a good comment from you about John Stossel, so you have redeeming qualities after all.
#29 by nipsey on October 10, 2012
I thought a lawyer was never supposed to ask a question he didn’t already know the answer to.
#30 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
That remark seems like a non-sequitur, but you’re right that I made a mistake and I apologize. In my defense, I’ve had to spend much of the past week driving around the county, picking up copies of the Weekly, and drawing pants on my caricatures.
#31 by truthseeker on October 10, 2012
Conspiracy theories are nothing more than unspeakable truths-welcome to 2012-28 years after 1984- how time flies.
Unfunded liabilities up the ying yang, law suit central, decaying infrastructure, the orgy at the taxpayer trough and snuff film production. It’s all in our imagination. Watch it a couple hundred times and it will change your mind too. Nothing a good checkpoint can’t fix. But wait who needs a car with 50 bars within a mile of each other? Hey liver is cheap right? Oh the humanity. No- the insanity. Let them drink to Fullerton’s Future-bright or bleak depending on the proof-180 is the where the real money goes. Quick Quirk socks-oh the socks. I forgot my blue shirt and the Tommy’s truck is in the red zone waiting. Hurry its Kelly’s rabble defecting for free food. The paramedics killed him. He had a hatchet. See these gloves? Don’t worry its just an autopsy.
It is just a dream a bad dream. Folks if you want to wake up remember the truth will set us free. Stand for it. We have nothing to loose.
#32 by truthseeker on October 10, 2012
… but the genie that they can never put back in the bottle.
#33 by Johnny Donut on October 10, 2012
Candidates normally don’t publish political hit pieces against themselves. I’m not sure what to make of this.
#34 by Disillusiond Ex-hippy on October 10, 2012
I wonder how Flory’s Law ‘N Order Police State FPOA pals are going to react to this.
Not that they care about breaking laws, but Flory isn’t a cop.
#35 by Fullerton Lover on October 11, 2012
I wonder how many DUI’s that the FPD has let Jan Flory out of over the years?
Someone needs to go and talk to the bartender at the Tropics Lounge over on Commonwealth and ask about her.
Maybe he’ll tell you more about Jan’s “to go” orders for more beer around closing time while Mr. Flory waits for her in the Jeep outside the bar.
#36 by THE LAW on October 10, 2012
That letter is public record. Call Nelson’s office and ask for a copy. 714-834-3440.
#37 by Steve Brow on October 10, 2012
Attorneys ask for breaks for their clients each and every time. The real issue is Flory’s use of illegal labor to clean her house. This presumably allowed her to get services for below market cost, made it difficult for legal residents to compete for the work, and added the cost of providing the worker’s public services to the tax payers’ burden.
Largely this is what illegal immigration is: The upper class shoving the legal lower middle class aside to gain more service for less money and also demanding that government subsidize the bill.
#38 by Outside Heroes That Night on October 10, 2012
Flory is a classic “limousine liberal.” She’ll tax the hell out of you so her cheap (illegal) labor can get access to public services.
Glub, glub, glub…
#39 by Huh? on October 10, 2012
Jackie got a free public education courtesy of you and me. And I’m willing to bet that mom and dad paid no income taxes.
#40 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
Right — just lots of sales taxes, property taxes (passed through rent), and various other fees.
Studies repeatedly show that people like Jackie’s parents add more to the economy then they take — which is why business people (like T0ny, though who knows if he’ll deny doing it) so often seek them out for work.
#41 by Fullerton Lover on October 10, 2012
Well said Steve Brow!
I wonder if Jan Flory will verify that all applicable employers taxes that were due over the last ten years have been paid?
I won’t be holding my breath until she does
I also have a problem with Jan Flory bragging about someone that’s illegally residing in the country performing work as a “poll worker in the June election”?
I always thought you had to be a citizen who has a right to vote in the election in order to work in the election process?
How much did it cost us as taxpayers to educate this child of the people that were cleaning her house over the last 10 years?
@ $10,000.00 per year for the cost of each pupil in California schools, I figure that it’s at least $100,000.00 that Jan Flory owes us as taxpayers for aiding and abetting this couple’s illegal employment for over 10 years.
Aiding and abetting in criminal law holds that the party responsible for orchestrating the crime, would be just as criminally culpable as the individuals who perpretrated the crime.
This leads to one other observation, I wonder if it would be possible to have one of Jan Flory’s sons that works for the O.C. District Attorney’s office, prosecute his mother, while the other son that works for the O.C. Public Defenders office, defend his own mother?
Now THAT would be an interesting criminal trial.
#42 by WTF! on October 10, 2012
“Undocumented domestics,” are usually an automatic deal killer for those who seek office. Let’s see how this plays in our little town.
#43 by van get it da artiste on October 10, 2012
undocumented domestics reason janet reno attorney general and it blew up in meg whitman’s face
#44 by Fred Alcazar on October 10, 2012
“Jan Flory Wants to Get Something Off Chest”
Ol’ Doc HeeHaw may be able to help with that.
#45 by Fred Alcazar on October 10, 2012
BTW, I wonder if “Jackie” who has no license, also has no insurance, as required by State law.
#46 by Fullerton Lover on October 10, 2012
Fred Alcazar,
I’ve personally experienced three “hit and runs” over the past ten years here in Fullerton, by individual(s) who apparently had no insurance, and because of that, were not interested in stopping to make sure that my family and I were o.k. after the accident.
Instead they drove away.
In our neighborhhoods where there is a high concentration of non-residents with drivers licenses, auto insurance companies actuarial tables report that there is a correlation of drivers who are not properly insured to drive on the streets.
#47 by SHIMON MENDEL on October 11, 2012
Very easy to get auto ins w/o license, you just pay more.
#48 by Dorothy Lane Dogooder on October 10, 2012
Lay off Jackie. Under Obama’s order, she’ll be able to get a work permit–not even Romney says he’ll undo that. And new state law allows such permit holders to get a driver’s license.
Blame Clinton for all this, when he threw Zoe Baird under the bus for having an illegal nanny. No one cares about Romney’s gardeners, now, do they?
#49 by Huh? on October 10, 2012
Don’t know. Let’s ask the voters.
#50 by Lifesaving Service on October 10, 2012
Candidates are held to a much higher standard. But in Fullertons past its just union money.
#51 by Fullerton Lover on October 10, 2012
I don’t think it’s Jackie that’s being picked on, I think that my interest as a resident of Fullerton, is why my City Council candidate thinks it’s o.k. to subvert the methods of which we pay taxes which in turn fund our government to operate.
Jan Flory would like to be able to tell us all how to spend the taxes that the government collects, however she doesn’t want to personally pay any of her own money into that same system?
#52 by Judge Judy on October 10, 2012
The moral if this story is this: If you bring Jan Flory to court with you, you might as well just plead guilty because you’re already screwed.
#53 by van get it da artiste on October 10, 2012
It does seem to be illegal. what is especially disturbing about this matter is flory blithely expects persons in the legal system to grant her favors because she was a 1.fullerton city council person who did favors for those she now asks to do her favors 2. an attorney in north orange county who has friends and cronies who should help her friends out of a legal problem
flory is so old , corrupt regime and so perfectly personifies the culture of corruption that runs rampant through Fullerton’s police department and until the recent recall, through our city council
#54 by Lifesaving Service on October 10, 2012
Probably the worst aura and mojo, Ive ever seen in Fullerton.
Thank You for sparing us that HORRIFIC picture of Flory on this post.
#55 by PitBull on October 10, 2012
If the California State Bar Association finds that Flory violated any of their legal policies I think a fair punishment would be to make Flory house 2 illegal alien families for free at her primary residence and make her financially responsible for their food, medical care and education for a period of one (1) year.
#56 by CAMPAIGN FINANCING on October 10, 2012
Even spent $1,200 for a slate mailer to oppose me. I’ll wear that as a badge of honor.
http://www.facebook.com/JanFloryForCityCouncil/posts/505391389472370
#57 by Shocked on October 10, 2012
Flory’s point is nobody cares about usage of undocumented workers — it’s a federal level responsibility. Her issue is that when local business, press, justice, and legislative bodies secretly assist each other, the public at large loses to such cronyism. Really just politics as usual, but not what “reformers” would admit to with pride.
#58 by PitBull on October 10, 2012
Of course locals care about the usage of undocumented. We have to end up paying for their health care, education and the blight that they bring to our communities. We spent over $20B on them just last year in California. To say we don’t care is absurd. Only idiots wouldn’t care about others who steal from them. Btw, there are STATE labor laws that forbid illegals from working jobs locally. So it’s not just a Federal concern.
#59 by Fullerton cops, others to clean up properties on October 10, 2012
The service day is in response to a report by independent investigator Michael Gennaco, hired by the city to probe the 2011 death of Kelly Thomas, a homeless man who died after being confronted by police officers. One recommendation was for the police to engage more with the community.
http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-374157-spree-volunteers.html
#60 by Diamond The Dumpster Diver on October 10, 2012
Hilarious. Gennaco gets paid a hundred grand by the Fullerton taxpayers to tell the cops to clean up properties.
Hey Ponsi, why don’t you ask Hughes why he refuses to clean up his department?
And the Fullerton Collaborative? Hahahahaha!!!
#61 by Fred Alcazar on October 10, 2012
Keller can stand around sipping Starbuck’s while somebody else actually works. But it won’t be Adam Powell.
#62 by truthseeker on October 10, 2012
$250 million per year in tax money in the City coffers with millions in lawsuits on the table trying to redeem the department. It reminds me of Cain’s sacrifice in the Old Testament. In my opinion this is not redemption. This is mockery.
#63 by van get it da artiste on October 11, 2012
I first thought this was a joke. Sadly, this is true. So, the objective eye of Gennaco who concluded Fullerton PD’s long history of civil rights abuses committed by them upon the good people of fullerton was not evidence a “culture of corruption” existed within this police force, now believes Fullerton PD will polish its image by pulling weeds? . This is a desperate action taken by liars like Gennaco and Fullerton PD and the old rgime of Fullerton’s city council, Jones, Bankhead and McKinley to show Fullerton’s community they really are good people, too.
Unlike Gennaco, A better objective eye that refuses to wear rose colored glasses is cctv video that clearly shows Kelly thomas beaten to death by Fullerton PD, the eyewitness testimony of this murder, the legal settlements paid to the victims of Fullerton Police officer Rincon, the legal settlement to Veth Mam(?) for false arrest, the other settlements for perjury, and the list goes on for this police department.
The last presidential election banted the term “Main Street” around to show their connection with the little people, us, before sailing off into lofty rhetoric.
The city of Fullerton is Main Street with its petty machinations that corrupt our time honored institutions, the backbone of our municipal government
just my opinion
#64 by Lifesaving Service on October 11, 2012
Dont forget it was Jones Felzs Bankheads Rustys and McSatans, $160,000 scam of a report.
It should have been the Department of Justice. according to ACU.
I doubt they have done enough to appease, the FBI, God Country and the different forms of modern News Media.
#65 by van get it da artiste on October 11, 2012
yes, The Gennaco investigation and its conclusions only prove those who promoted and supported Gennaco’s efforts did so to hide the corruption of Fullerton’s police department and city council before the 2012 recall.
I may only pray justice will visit the Felz, Rusty Kennedy and his cohort in crime, Pat McKinley, Jones and Bankhead and those pillars of out town that clings to them
just my opinion
#66 by Not Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Somebody get a hold of the EX-WIFE! There has to be troves of material there!
The Moxely article opens up a whole new front in the war vs. BLOWHARD/WORDSMITH/AGITATORS.
This guy was a ZERO before he was divorced, A ZERO after and now, he has the audacity to talk about “Human trafficking”. Yeah right.
Check out his profile on http://www.purefilapina.com
But, that’s “love” not taking advantage of a humon being living in a thatch hut.
#67 by Diamond the Dumpster Diver on October 10, 2012
Link didn’t work. But I’m interested in Dime Bag’s cross-cultural exchange.
#68 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Are we bringing up ex-wives now? I’d be careful; my ex-wife and I remain good friends — and Norby’s got three of them.
I don’t think you were actually keeping score.before and after my divorce, so stop pretending. It makes you look stupid.
I’m not familiar with that site, but if there’s a profile there it didn’t come from me. How low will you guys stoop?
#69 by Not Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
“YOU GUYS”
Be careful counsler. By lumping people together you start a …what do you law folks call it…Precedent?
Like you and Vern? Are you linked.
SQS is locked at the hip with your crazy views.
I don’t stoop. I see you EXACTLY as Maxley described.
#70 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
You linked to a site I’ve never heard of (but that I’ll bet is some sex site) called “www.purefilapina.com” and claimed that I have a profile there. If you’re not stooping, it’s because you’re already lying in the gutter.
Vern and I are friends. SQS is substantially more moderate than I am, starting with our differing views on marijuana legalization. She seems to avoid “crazy views”; I can tolerate them.
#71 by Mr. Peabody on October 11, 2012
In other words she is a gutless cop-licker.
#72 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
Those certainly are “other words.”
Anyway, I hope that you’re happy that you got what you wanted and that the Norby piece was out. It took someone with more clout with you to make me decide that I had to go ahead with it to set the record straight, but you played an important role.
Now — were you lying about your habit of putting in public records requests to see who put in public record requests? Or were you tipped off by someone on Council to do it when you did?
#73 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 11, 2012
Someone please open a window.
#74 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
Yeah, I know — making anonymous allegations is only fun until I destroy them.
#75 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 12, 2012
Sad little fellow. You couldn’t destroy a moth in a paper bag. How proud The Quirk must be having you as an operative!
#76 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
If I were an operative, I could have afforded a private detective to interview all of the Norbys neighbors, dimwit. But, as I said, I’d given up on the story before FFFF and Moxley resuscitated it.
I realize that that must arouse mixed feelings in you.
#77 by Fullerton Lover on October 10, 2012
Pictures of the recently opened Fullerton Community Center…
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/center-374021-community-facility.html?pic=2
#78 by KL on October 10, 2012
Did we ever pay for that community center?
#79 by Not Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
Hey Sharron…..Sharron…. Hey HEY…..
It’s me…Greg Diamond, Remember me…Hey We believe…..
The best thing you can say about SQS is she turned her back on this loser.
#80 by Greg Diamond on October 10, 2012
“Turned her back on” is too harsh. I doubt that she wanted to see me writing this story, but she’s a smart woman so I expect that she’ll see why I had to given all of your goading.
You do remember the goading, don’t you? It wasn’t that long ago..
#81 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 11, 2012
Smart as a turnip.
#82 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
The only person I’ve seen use that expression in the OC blogosphere is Tony B. As suspected.
That’s an easy accusation to make about someone if you don’t care whether it’s true. It is obviously untrue. (Untrue of Rose Espinoza, of whom you’ve said the same thing, too.)
#83 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 11, 2012
Nice deduction Sherlock. However you are incorrect.
I am not Tony. I wish I were that rich.
Quirk is sharp as a turnip; Espinosa is even dumber.
#84 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
How odd that you use the same odd and unusual expression.
#85 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 12, 2012
I like the phrase. Don’t you? It’s certainly worth repeating. I heard someone once say that Rosie was dumber than a sack of doorknobs. I like that one, too.
You party Democrat hacks are always extolling the intelligence of your simple-minded candidates: Flory, Quirk, Espinoza spring most immediately to mind. Oh, and let’s not forget the Mary Magdalen of OC politics, dear Loretta.
#86 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
None of those are simple-minded. Of course, they’re not as subtle-minded as Travis, based on the constitutional analysis of DUI checkpoints that he gave when challenged by an Assistant DA at a council meeting to ask her any questions.
Oh wait, he just clammed up, didn’t he? Never mind.
(See the difference there? I didn’t just insult, I offered evidence.)
#87 by Mr. Peabody on October 11, 2012
Goading? Okay. We knew you had nothing and in two months you produced nothing – except for that 7000 word fart which still amounted to – nothing.
“…Norby did nothing wrong…”
#88 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
You read that piece and you conclusion is that “Norby did nothing wrong”? That’s bizarre. If Norby wants to show that he did nothing wrong, then he and Martha can ask for release of all FPD records related to that investigation. Until then, it’s simply not proven. Coverups sometimes work. And FPD has been accused of having a Culture of … you know the rest.
#89 by Mr. Peabody on October 11, 2012
“Norby did nothing wrong” was your conclusion because you have no proof of that he did.
Nobody is under any obligation to disprove the rumor-based smear of an inconsequential microbe like you.
#90 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
Do you think that, with the evidence I had, I was justified in turning in a public records request to try to find the name of the witness and to see if the alleged pictures of Martha Norby’s abdominal bruising did in fact exist?
If not, why not? (Please do explain in detail — and be prepared to discuss past FFFF practices.) If so, what’s your point? And if you didn’t want to see me have to justify why I turned in the request, you shouldn’t have written your article — and helped induce Moxley to write his.
You made that happen. I could ignore you personally, of course, but not Moxley. So congratulations to you both on goading me until I had to publish the story.
#91 by The Fullerton Harpoon on October 12, 2012
Admit it: you have nothing. But wait, that’s your life story, isn’t it?
#92 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
It’s clear that you’d like it to be. Actually, I’ve had a fun life — good work, great experiences. Sorry to disappoint.
I’m not going to reveal who told me what things in confidence. However, the more you help me publicize this, the more likely it is that something will come out. One of them may step forward, the witness may be identified, someone at FPD may send someone those photos under the table — you know, the way Tony has asked people to do.
Who knows — maybe even Martha Norby might have something to say, if Chris would allow it. (Is she even around these days?)
That’s not why I wrote the story; that was to clear my name. But the more you say “there’s nothing there,” the more pressure you put on someone to disclose what they know — so keep at it, ‘poon!
Who should they send such information to, though? Surely not me. Fullerton Stories? The Observer? Voice of OC? The Register (or is that too risky.) What do you think, ‘poon? Where should people send information about what they might have told me (or otherwise know) but don’t want to acknowledge openly for fear of retaliation?
#93 by Outside Heroes That Night on October 12, 2012
Evidence? You had nothing you pustule. Another strike out for OCs biggest loser!
#94 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
I had nothing that I could release publicly.
So, are you arguing that I never should have turned in a public record request to see if evidence existed — or that I just should have sit still for abuse from people who honestly don’t give a damn what Norby does to anyone in his private life? Which is it?
#95 by Kevin on October 10, 2012
Illegal aliens running our elections as poll workers??? Red flag!! Flory would love that in November. Keep an eye out for illegal alien and FPOA poll workers.
#96 by Tuco Ramirez on October 11, 2012
Sharon Quirk Silva and Chris Norby have lucked out. They Gerrymandered their Fullerton Assembly District to include my residence city nearby. Our 75% Republican voters and only 15% latino district will never vote for Quirk Silva and definitely will not if she is a disciple of the Loretta and Linda Sanchez sisters. (You know, the kind that live in Palos Verdes but put their residence as a rental in the poorer sections of Orange and LA County)! So the Dem party owes Quirk Silva big time for taking on Norby in an unfair area where Republicans have a good sized edge in voter registrations.
I wonder what political appointment she will be receiving for running against Norby?
Warning to Sharon: Norby’s signs are bigger and his full color mailers are far more frequent! Better step up and ask for more money from the Fullerton Police Association and the Firemen too so you can send out more junk mail to the new constituents who have never heard of you!
#97 by Greg Diamond on October 11, 2012
The difference in registration in AD-65 is (or was early this year) about 1%. (I haven’t rechecked it recently; Dem registration may have grown. Dems just became the majority party in Anaheim.)
Who lives in Palos Verdes? If you have evidence, present it.
#98 by Tuco Ramirez on October 11, 2012
Loretta Sanchez. When she first ran and won against B52 Bob Dornan in Garden Grove. Nuff Said!
#99 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
You realize that, by law, State Senate and Assembly candidates have to live in the district while Congressional candidates only have to live in the state, right?
What you describe may have happened, if so then I didn’t know about it and it’s very old news, and your point isn’t germane anyway.
#100 by Lifesaving Service on October 11, 2012
“Responsibility is the price of greatness” -Sir Winston Churchill
The opposite would be, …… results in infamy.
Or “Disaster is the price of, a city governments, brutal free for all give away, and a Hughes, McSatan cloak of murder sins and cover up!
#101 by Why Downtown Fullerton Sucks on Friday and Saturday Nights on October 11, 2012
http://www.ocweekly.com/slideshow/why-downtown-fullerton-sucks-on-friday-and-saturday-nights-37965963/
#102 by Jane H on October 11, 2012
That slideshow reminds why I stopped working in the restaurant/bar business 22 years ago. Young college age drinkers can turn a bar upside down in one night. Oh, and I can’t forget about sudden violence either. I used to see fights break out all the time. Such a fun environment.
DTF is really up to its eyeballs in alcohol.
#103 by Life saving Service on October 11, 2012
Cops love drunks. Good times. Whack.
#104 by Tuco Ramirez on October 12, 2012
Anyone else here think that 52 establishments that serve liquor in Fullerton might be a few too many? Just as Anaheim has a bed tax, Fullerton needs a liquor sales tax on booze & beer only. The tax monies can be used for increasing the pay for police so they can get free donuts! They will be the fat free kind so the FPD can have a slim down contest similar to the Greatest Loser!
#105 by mo on October 11, 2012
I have sympathy for childern, who no fault of their own, are brought to the US undocumented. That being said, I can’t believe Jan would support someone – anyone, driving without a license. Heck, I’m legal and currently don’t have a license. Do I drive – NO…because it would be illegal.
Such a pathetic and obvious attempt to do some pre-damage control. I have a feeling there is a hell of a lot more to this story…
#106 by Expert: Officer contributed to Thomas' death on October 11, 2012
http://www.ocregister.com/news/thomas-374271-jury-wolfe.html
#107 by Lifesaving Service on October 11, 2012
Published: Oct. 11, 2012 Updated: 1:10 p.m.
Expert: Officer contributed to Thomas’ death
“SANTA ANA – Ex-Fullerton police officer Joe Wolfe talked to a mentally ill homeless man with scorn and then accelerated an already heated encounter last summer into a deadly beating by striking the first blow, a retired police chief told the Orange County Grand jury last month, according to court documents made public Thursday.
Joseph McNamara, a former police chief in Kansas City, Mo., and San Jose and an expert on police use of force, testified that Wolfe and fellow officer Manuel Ramos coerced and threatened transient Kelly Thomas “behind the power of their uniform, their clubs and their badge and their guns with total disrespect,” according to grand jury transcripts.
Former Fullerton Police Officer Joseph Wolfe was indicted Sept. 24, 2012, on one felony count of involuntary manslaughter and one felony count of the use of excessive force in connection with the beating death of 37-year-old homeless man Kelly Thomas.
JOSHUA SUDOCK, THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER
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“This is not conduct that officers find reasonable,” McNamara testified. “My opinion is that Officer Wolfe used excessive force, and in fact, accelerated more than, or as much as anyone else, in the tragic result in this force that was used against Kelly Thomas.”
McNamara was one of 10 witnesses who testified in secret last month, leading to the indictment of Wolfe, the first policeman to strike the schizophrenic Thomas after a routine call came in that someone was pulling on the doors in the parking lots near downtown Fullerton.
That call escalated into a physical confrontation between Thomas and six Fullerton officers that was captured on surveillance video. Thomas died five days after the heating when life support was pulled.
Wolfe, a 13-year department veteran, was accused in the Sept. 27 indictment with involuntary manslaughter and excessive force.
The transcripts of grand jury proceedings were made public Thursday.
Wolfe, who is free $25,000 bail, has a pre-trial hearing Nov. 2 before Superior Court Judge William Froeberg, who also is presiding over the cases of the first two officers charged in the July 5, 2011 beating.
Ex-officer Ramos was charged by the Orange County District Attorney’s Office in September 2011 with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. He is the first Orange County lawman to be accused of murder for an incident that occurred while in uniform and on duty.
Ex-Cpl. Jay Cicinelli was charged at the same time with involuntary manslaughter and assault under color of authority. Both Ramos and Cicinelli are out on bail pending a Nov. 30 hearing on a defense motion to dismiss charges.
Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas filed charges directly against Ramos and Cicinelli more than a year ago, but chose to take the Wolfe case to the grand jury – a year after the incident.
Thomas died July 10, 2011, when his life support was turned off five days after the confrontation
The grand jury transcripts made public Thursday show that Wolfe put his weight atop of Kelly Thomas once the scuffle got under way, then used his elbow and forearm to hit him, according Rackauckas, who personally presented some of the evidence to the grand jury.
“You can see the blood in the video,” Rackaukus told the grand jury. “The shiny material by officer Wolfe’s foot, you can see it there starting to pool up.”
Rackacukas also pointed out to the grand jury what he perceived was the casual way in which the Fullerton Police officers reacted after the incident.
“The only thing that is remarkable about it is the lack of caring,” he said. “The lack of an emergency on the part of the police. The casual way that they handle this from here on out. They don’t seem to recognize any emergency here. Any distress. They just start talking. They just clean their things up …
“This is a matter for society to pay some attention to, because in order to have a lawful police force, there need to be limits,” Rackauckas said. “And so the police are certainly able to use force as required, as necessary, but it needs to be lawful force. It needs to be the force necessary to do their lawful duty.”
Dr. Aruna Singhania, the county pathologist who performed the autopsy on Thomas, testified that Thomas died because his chest was compressed and his brain couldn’t receive enough oxygen. But she added that that all of the injuries Thomas suffered in the early evening encounter outside the Fullerton Transportation Center — a broken nose, a bloodied eye, bruises on his torso, cuts to his face – contributed.
Thomas was comatose when he arrived at U.C. Irvine’s trauma center, and his heart had stopped and been restarted, Dr. Michael Lekawa, the medical director, testified. Thomas later opened his eyes but never regained consciousness, Lekawa said, and was declared brain dead five days after the beating.
The hospital ran tests on Thomas’ blood and urine when he arrived. Those tests found no signs of methamphetamines, amphetamines, marijuana, cocaine, PCP or alcohol in Thomas’ system, he said.
McNamara, who is also a former New York policeman, also said that Thomas may have been verbally combative when the first two officers approached, but that the officers over-reacted.
“This guy (Thomas) wasn’t a master criminal with a passport to Brazil,” McNamara testified. “He is kind of a sad homeless person that is no danger physically to anyone. He may be an annoying person. But he certainly didn’t deserve to pay the death penalty.”
The grand jury documents also show that Ramos and Wolfe responded in separate patrol cars to reports of someone trying to open doors of parked cars when they approached Thomas as he stood shirtless near a bus bench. Ramos, 39, questioned Thomas for about 15 minutes before the encounter escalated, according to the videotape.
Wolfe delivered the first blow, striking the back of Thomas’ leg with his baton, according to the videotape. Ramos then joined the fray and the two officers grappled with Thomas before four other officers – including Cicinelli – arrived at the scene and piled on, according to the video.
Among the evidence considered by the grand jury was testimony who saw Thomas struck back after the officers used their batons and tackled him to the ground.
One witness — a cab driver — told an investigator that an officer hit Thomas with a baton, making the homeless man back away about three to five steps. The officer then punched Thomas, who “immediately punched the officer back twice in the cheek.”
Some of the material provided to the Grand Jury was given to them at the request of Wolfe’s attorney, Vicki Podberesky, who also asked that jury members be given pictures of her client after the incident, and details of Kelly Thomas’ history of previous contacts with police officers.” OCRegister.com
#108 by Cold Chillin' Cops Balls on October 11, 2012
Joseph B. McNamara.
Retired over 20 years ago.
Hasn’t been a patrol cop in over 40 years.
Was paid $20,000 by OCDA for his testimony.
Has written many anti-police articles.
I’m sure OCDA had to search far and wide for such a “qualified” impartial expert.
#109 by truthseeker on October 11, 2012
McNamara, unlike Hughes who saw the video 300 times and said it would change our minds, has been far removed from active duty LE long enough and is consequently far less jaded and desensitized to how far down the sewer system that law enforcement behavior has progressed. It is an objective perspective served with a shot of the “they live” glasses over the retinas. Ah the old Grand Jury. Where the heck have they been?
#110 by Cold Chillin' Cops Balls on October 11, 2012
Yes, someone born in 1935 would certainly be far removed from active duty.
#111 by truthseeker on October 11, 2012
With age comes wisdom CCCB.
The silver-haired head is a crown of glory,
if it is found in the way of righteousness.
Proverbs 16:31
#112 by Cold Chillin' Cops Balls on October 11, 2012
Read his testimony. He doesn’t exactly come off as either impartial or expert.
#113 by truthseeker on October 11, 2012
I did- he is old school and this is dangerous territory. I believe as of late what we have had is neither impartial nor expert. It has been slick propaganda, lies and convoluted logic that takes the word justice and turns it into word that has no root in any modern language. TRack is on a tightrope with a pole saddled with the oscillating whim and weight of public opinion.
#114 by Cold Chillin' Cops Balls on October 11, 2012
Forgive me, Truthseeker, while I have a heart attack.
Well said.
#115 by Prove it on October 11, 2012
When are you providing the names of those “3″ chiefs you talked to? When are they going to provide the names of the “chiefs” they talked to? ……. thought so.
#116 by Cold Chillin' Cops Balls on October 11, 2012
I’m not. They don’t want to be associated with this mess in any way, shape, or form, just like any qualified outside applicant for chief.
When you gonna name your friend who is supposedly interested in the position?
#117 by Mr. Peabody on October 11, 2012
Right. McNamara is a real mensch. Chief Danny is a little gutless weasel; Sellers was a worthless invertebrate; McKinley was a psychopath.
Strictly no contest.
#118 by TRANSCRIPTS on October 11, 2012
http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/10/616_1349985504.pdf
#119 by Redevelopment woes lead to Fullerton credit downgrade on October 11, 2012
http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2012/10/11/redevelopment-woes-lead-to-fullerton-credit-downgrade/163078/
#120 by Lifesaving Service on October 11, 2012
By the time Standard and Poors downgrades its way too late. They are always late with the report of downgrades. They can be very very generous with their ratings.
#121 by truthseeker on October 11, 2012
“they are fiscal radicals…. and they will push Fullerton to join the ranks of Stockton and San Bernadino in bankruptcy court….” was the accusation of one concerned citizen towards Mr. Kiger and Mr. Whittaker. The downward pressure on our municipal solvency has begun without their help.
#122 by Nomad on October 11, 2012
WANTED: To answer for the MURDER of Kelly Thomas;
Jay Cicinelli
Manuel Ramos
Joe Wolfe
Kenton Hampton
James Blatney
Kevin Craig
By thier cowardly actions on the night of July 5th, 2011 they disgraced not only thier badge, but themselves and every law abiding citizen of Fullerton.
#123 by Judge Judy on October 11, 2012
Or you could go the Diamond route… don’t find any evidence at all, and then just repeat the anonymous rumor that you heard.
#124 by Tuco Ramirez on October 11, 2012
I answered it above Judge Judy. Mr. Diamond ignored the reply. It was in the newspapers after her victory but nothing actually happened like removing a congresswoman. Hey, compared to Barney Frank and the former head of the black caucus, Mrs. Sanchez is a saint.
#125 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
No, I just haven’t been back until now, you meatball.
#126 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
If the story was about whether I was justified in starting to investigate the hearsay I’d heard from credible sources, that would be legitimate. Not in this case, though, eh?
#127 by Tuco Ramirez on October 11, 2012
Looks like the cops are out trollin again because of another news article denigrating the FPD performance. The casual attitude at the end of the tape, the self congratulatory attitudes will make it difficult for jurors to find them not guilty. But, since I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, I will not comment further…
#128 by Mr. Peabody on October 11, 2012
Hell, I’ll do it. How hard can it be? Hughes has had the job for almost a year!
#129 by SDLocal on October 11, 2012
Flory says: “Because Jackie has no documents herself, she (like hundreds of thousands) cannot get a driver’s license.”
In the very next ssssssentence, she says: “I’ve known Jackie for 10 years, and she is a good girl who has done everything asked of her.”
Flory just noted two things that Jackie was asked of her that she certainly did not do according to State Law — no docs and no license — and then claims she did everything asked of her.
So which is it? Did “one of the Dream kids” do everything asked of her?
Doesn’t sound like it. She might be a great person and get good grades, but that’s not the intended point of this thread.
The point of the thread is that Flory is a weak thinker and a borderline noisy flapping kook.
I figure her election blather might be making her sound worse than she actually is.
I’ve had kookie old folks for neighbors a few times in my life and travels (who hasn’t?), and I usually liked them. Some were noisy and flappy, yes, but the damage they did was mostly self-inflicted.
This is why Fullerton has a problem. Your noisy flapping kooks are trying to orchestrate a comeback.
Rust never sleeps, nor do your tarred-and-feathered disgraced politicians. They keep coming back at you, like a tottering old kookie Terminator.
#130 by Old Tire on October 11, 2012
And you would be wrong.
#131 by SDLocal on October 12, 2012
I know, Old Tire, and you’re right.
I was just trying to inject a lost-cause, friendly, hopeful hypothetical unlikely one-in-a-million possibility.
She’s worse than she sounds. Got it.
No wonder she is as she is.
I’m glad to get this off my chest.
#132 by Outside Heroes That Night on October 12, 2012
You’re just a broke operative.
#133 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
Yeah, that’s what happens when you’re not actually an operative at all. It tends to limit your budget for “operative” operations.
The truth means nothing at all to you — does it, masked man?
#134 by Way Nutty on October 12, 2012
Greg you are completely correct and they know that or at least Norby and his wife knows it. Continue to dig I think something will happen to validate your story.
#135 by Greg Diamond on October 12, 2012
I’m not digging anymore. Others who know something and haven’t contacted the press may choose to do so.
#136 by Danny Martinez on October 12, 2012
Jan Flory is another tool of the unions.
How anyone can expect anything from an organization that murdered a hadicapped man, lied about it aand continue to run unabated is beyond me.
What is scarier, is that several political canidates: Diamond, Silva and Flory, not only have aligned themselves with these brutal killers, they actively defend them.
Thank goodness none of them stand a snowball’s chance in hell of being elected.
As a regular attendee of DPOC events, my wife has all but said, the 800 pound elephant in the room is no longer melehut, but Diamond, who tries to elbow his way into EVERY issue and conversation.
If his aim is to destroy what little party continuity they county group has, he’s done well.
#137 by Greg Diamond on October 13, 2012
Who’s your wife and why is she (if she exists and does attend DPOC events) “all but” lying to you?
I think that you’re lying yourself, “Danny.”
#138 by Beans on October 14, 2012
Jan Flory is nutcase. She accused 2 14 year olds and a 12 year old of plotting to make her life hell. She said we were messing with her and doing things to make her crazy. She said we put a garden hose in her gas tank so it could only hold a couple gallons. Se obviously does not have good sense of the law seeming as she is ok with supporting illegal immigrants. She has continued support for them as we can see, which should be a crime in itself. Accessory to it. She should get the same punishment as a coyote!
#139 by Lifesaving Service on October 11, 2012
Someone is hijacking my name. should I change admin.
#140 by Lifesaving Service on October 12, 2012
Thank you for deleting troll comments.
#141 by Lifesaving Service on October 12, 2012
“Is America a Zero-Sum Game?
Why having really rich people isn’t an issue
December 7, 2011
In Oliver Stone’s 1987 movie Wall Street, corporate profiteer Gordon Gekko summed up the financial state of America, its businesses, and its citizens: “It’s a zero sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn’t lost or made, it’s simply transferred from one perception to another.” It’s a sentiment embodied in the Occupy Wall Street protests: the rich have all the money. But is it true? Is the economy a zero-sum game, a financial pie from which only limited slices of money are available for the country’s 300-million-plus people?
Consider the fictional country of Gekkoland, an island nation inhabited by 100 people, each with ten one-dollar bills. The total money resources of this community are just $1,000, and as the members of the community engage in business, they shuffle the bills around. It’s wouldn’t be surprising to find some people with much more than their initial $10, while others struggle to keep just one of those bills.
Such an island economy gives a partial glimpse into why the Occupy protestors are so upset. But it is also a wholly inaccurate view of how an economy works. In a real economy, money is not limited to the individual pieces of legal tender passed between buyers and sellers. Instead, economic activity causes the net worth of a community or nation to grow beyond its limited paper money resources. Dollar bills have value, but the goods and services produced by individuals and businesses also have value, as do those natural resources that go into those produced goods and services.”
http://humorality.com/2011/12/07/total-net-worth/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A donut is rolling down an excellently maintained street on a hill in Brea California, whos gonna get that donut???
Vote the FUCKERS OUT!!!